Could Ozzie Smith in his heyday start for over half the teams in MLB currently

[Journeyman]

Quick comparison Alan Trammell and Ozzie Smith offensive numbers

Both played the game approx the same amount of years (Smith 1978-1996, Trammell 1978-1995)

Ozzie hits-2460 doubles-402 triples-69 HR-28 runs-1257 SB-580 BB-1072
Tram hits-2365 doubles-412 triples-55 HR-185 runs-1231 SB-236 BB-850

He's basically as good an offensive player over his career as Alan Trammell, aside from the homeruns, but he makes up for it with speed and a better strikeout to walk ratio....pretty close...the guy wasn't an automatic out like everyone seems to think.

 

[barman]

Can't recall the year now without looking it up, but there was one season in early 90s when The Wizard conked like nine homeruns and most were against lefties.

So Strao-Matic gave him like 4 diamonds on the left side....Worship

 

[Journeyman]

Can't recall the year now without looking it up, but there was one season in early 90s when The Wizard conked like nine homeruns and most were against lefties.

So Strao-Matic gave him like 4 diamonds on the left side....Worship

His career hi was 6- 1985- probably seemed like 9 when you factor in the 20 years of lost brain cells and the game today.

:lol:

 

[Iceman]

Quick comparison Alan Trammell and Ozzie Smith offensive numbers

Both played the game approx the same amount of years (Smith 1978-1996, Trammell 1978-1995)

Ozzie hits-2460 doubles-402 triples-69 HR-28 runs-1257 SB-580 BB-1072
Tram hits-2365 doubles-412 triples-55 HR-185 runs-1231 SB-236 BB-850

He's basically as good an offensive player over his career as Alan Trammell, aside from the homeruns, but he makes up for it with speed and a better strikeout to walk ratio....pretty close...the guy wasn't an automatiuc out like everyone seems to think.

Dont forget to add the all important RBI stat that you conviently forgot to add, which Trammell had close to 350 more. Also the fielding pct of Ozzie was .978 to Trammell's .977

Trammell hit 150 more HR's to Ozzie.


Realize this Ozzie had over 1,000 AB's more than Trammell which is the equivalent ot 2 more seasons of stat padding (or in Ozzies case slapping at a ball like a woman).

It is not my job to defend a player that couldn't stay on the HOF ballot to one that was a first ballot selection. This shouldn't be an argument but for some reason the stats prove it is.

 

[Journeyman]

I didn't conveniently forget to add them Jesus...

Ozzie was a joke who somehow ended up in the HOF you win .

 

[Journeyman]

Dont forget to add the all important RBI stat that you conviently forgot to add, which Trammell had close to 350 more. Also the fielding pct of Ozzie was .978 to Trammell's .977

Trammell hit 150 more HR's to Ozzie.


Realize this Ozzie had over 1,000 AB's more than Trammell which is the equivalent ot 2 more seasons of stat padding (or in Ozzies case slapping at a ball like a woman).

It is not my job to defend a player that couldn't stay on the HOF ballot to one that was a first ballot selection. This shouldn't be an argument but for some reason the stats prove it is.

Smith had more at bats because Trammell was basically done as a regular player at age 32 (his last full season) and a big reason why he didn't come close to the HOF .

Where Smith on the other hand had 1200+ hits after age 33 and was in the top 20 in MVP voting at age 36-37..Ozzie Smith stole 57 bases at age 33, and 43 bases at age 37...this is the difference between HOF players and players who were very good for a 6-7 year period.

And talk about RBI, after age 32 Smith had way more RBI than Trammell 344-193.

You call it 'stat padding' I call it finishing your HOF resume'...you're not stat padding when you're in the top 20 for league MVP at that age.

 

[fhmesq44]

Dont forget to add the all important RBI stat that you conviently forgot to add, which Trammell had close to 350 more. Also the fielding pct of Ozzie was .978 to Trammell's .977

Fielding % isn't the be all and end all of fielding statistics. Guys who cover more ground make more errors, more ground = more chances = harder chances = higher number of errors

Trammell - GP @ SS - 2139, PO - 3391, Asst - 6172, DP - 1307
Smith - 2511, 4249, 8375, 1590

or, average per 162 games

Trammell - 256, 467 and 99
Smith - 275, 540 and 102

Meaning, Smith was responsible for 96 more outs per season than Trammell. Trammell was a well above average defensive SS, so to say he wasn't responsible for 80 more outs than an average SS is without merit.

To wit:

Smith had 500 or more assts 8 times in his career, more than any other player. Trammell never had more than 459, Omar Vizquel had more than 450 once (475). Smith holds the single season record of 621, or, ~7% higher than Cal Ripken's AL record of 583. Jeter broke 400 3 times (all between 440-46), Dave Concepcion broke 500 twice. Smith AVERAGED 540 assists per year from 78 through 89.

Smith lead the league in Range Factor [(A+PO)/Innings] 9 times, more than any other SS and had a range factor almost a full out better than the league average (5.03 v. 4.1, or 150 outs per year). Concepcion was .19 better than league average, Ripken .46, Vizquel .28, Jeter is -.05, Trammell .36

I don't know how to equate this to runs saved, but he was clearly responsible for roughly 1 more out per game than an average SS over most of his career and apparently worth more than 90 outs over the course of a season than Omar Vizquel in all but Vizquel's best defensive season. However, I also don't think it is unreasonable to think he saved between 50-90 runs per season.

I'm not some SABR dork or moneyball guy, but those stats are alarming. Just throwing out some context here.

 

[ClipJoint]

If Ozzie Smith had the same scorekeepers they use these days, he would probably have half the errors he was given in his career.

I hate watching these idiots these days...if it is a tough play, it is a hit. "Well, the sun was in his eyes...the wind was blowing pretty hard...it would have been a tough play...etc..."

 

[Journeyman]

Fielding % isn't the be all and end all of fielding statistics. Guys who cover more ground make more errors, more ground = more chances = harder chances = higher number of errors

Trammell - GP @ SS - 2139, PO - 3391, Asst - 6172, DP - 1307
Smith - 2511, 4249, 8375, 1590

or, average per 162 games

Trammell - 256, 467 and 99
Smith - 275, 540 and 102

Meaning, Smith was responsible for 96 more outs per season than Trammell. Trammell was a well above average defensive SS, so to say he wasn't responsible for 80 more outs than an average SS is without merit.

To wit:

Smith had 500 or more assts 8 times in his career, more than any other player. Trammell never had more than 459, Omar Vizquel had more than 450 once (475). Smith holds the single season record of 621, or, ~7% higher than Cal Ripken's AL record of 583. Jeter broke 400 3 times (all between 440-46), Dave Concepcion broke 500 twice. Smith AVERAGED 540 assists per year from 78 through 89.

Smith lead the league in Range Factor [(A+PO)/Innings] 9 times, more than any other SS and had a range factor almost a full out better than the league average (5.03 v. 4.1, or 150 outs per year). Concepcion was .19 better than league average, Ripken .46, Vizquel .28, Jeter is -.05, Trammell .36

I don't know how to equate this to runs saved, but he was clearly responsible for roughly 1 more out per game than an average SS over most of his career and apparently worth more than 90 outs over the course of a season than Omar Vizquel in all but Vizquel's best defensive season. However, I also don't think it is unreasonable to think he saved between 50-90 runs per season.

I'm not some SABR dork or moneyball guy, but those stats are alarming. Just throwing out some context here.

very nice piece.

And take into consideration the Cardinals went to 3 World Series in the 1980's and every year they won their division by just 3 games in each year.... Ozzie had to have saved/won 3 games a year wth his glove....

Trammell was a very good player who had a much shorter injury riddled career and was pretty much done by age 32 (as a regular), Ozzie Smith was a HOF player who finished his career and improved well into his late 30's.

 

[WVU]

Fielding % isn't the be all and end all of fielding statistics. Guys who cover more ground make more errors, more ground = more chances = harder chances = higher number of errors

Trammell - GP @ SS - 2139, PO - 3391, Asst - 6172, DP - 1307
Smith - 2511, 4249, 8375, 1590

or, average per 162 games

Trammell - 256, 467 and 99
Smith - 275, 540 and 102

Meaning, Smith was responsible for 96 more outs per season than Trammell. Trammell was a well above average defensive SS, so to say he wasn't responsible for 80 more outs than an average SS is without merit.

To wit:

Smith had 500 or more assts 8 times in his career, more than any other player. Trammell never had more than 459, Omar Vizquel had more than 450 once (475). Smith holds the single season record of 621, or, ~7% higher than Cal Ripken's AL record of 583. Jeter broke 400 3 times (all between 440-46), Dave Concepcion broke 500 twice. Smith AVERAGED 540 assists per year from 78 through 89.

Smith lead the league in Range Factor [(A+PO)/Innings] 9 times, more than any other SS and had a range factor almost a full out better than the league average (5.03 v. 4.1, or 150 outs per year). Concepcion was .19 better than league average, Ripken .46, Vizquel .28, Jeter is -.05, Trammell .36

I don't know how to equate this to runs saved, but he was clearly responsible for roughly 1 more out per game than an average SS over most of his career and apparently worth more than 90 outs over the course of a season than Omar Vizquel in all but Vizquel's best defensive season. However, I also don't think it is unreasonable to think he saved between 50-90 runs per season.

I'm not some SABR dork or moneyball guy, but those stats are alarming. Just throwing out some context here.

So one out per game difference would be how many runs saved? No where near 1/2. More like 1/8 runs per game

 

[Journeyman]

How can you say that overall he's only saving 40 runs? You don't know how many leadoff batters would be in the mix either.

I want Ice man to read this entire thread before picking and choosing what to respond to...damn

 

[WVU]

one extra out so how many outs to produce a run?

 

[Doug]

I wonder what he get as a contract now ? I'm guessing it would less than several currently get.

 

[fhmesq44]

So one out per game difference would be how many runs saved? No where near 1/2. More like 1/8 runs per game

I have no idea, but IMO, I think it is more than 1/8. How many of those outs came with 2 outs and guys on 2nd and 3rd? How many came with 2 outs and none on and the pitcher up next? How many would have led to 4 more runs? No idea, impossible to say. Intuitively 1/8 seems too low.

 

[fhmesq44]

How can you say that overall he's only saving 40 runs? You don't know how many leadoff batters would be in the mix either.

I want Ice man to read this entire thread before picking and choosing what to respond to...damn

1/8 is 20 over a season.

 

[Iceman]

How can you say that overall he's only saving 40 runs? You don't know how many leadoff batters would be in the mix either.

I want Ice man to read this entire thread before picking and choosing what to respond to...damn

You have to be kidding as you are the one who came in here saying this was a silly thread and you were right and everyone is wrong. I am stating valid stats. You keep saying I am right and you are wrong and that is it. I am not arguing if he was a good defensive player, as I given him credit, you are the one questioning my baseball knowledge becasue it don't agree with you.

You will not admit his offensive skills were bad and then go on by comparing them to Alan Trammell (your guy not mine) which even isnt a comparision as Trammell numbers are better per season than Ozzie Smith. Their is no question Trammell are (and Tram isn't HOFER and I never said he should be). We are arguing if he could play right now on a majorty of the teams not how big of numbers he compiled in his 20 year career.


Sorry but YOU may need to go back and read some of YOUR comments. Damn Journey, you can dish it out but you don't like to take it. Not worth it to me. I am done discussing this as I don't want any hard feelings and it was never my intentions.

 

[Journeyman]

Ice I said it was a joke...you missed that , yet are harping on that, I also said I wasn't at all mad-like someone suggested....I only used Trammell as the example because you had mentioned him recently, and I think proved my point...not sure how you come up with Trammell being 'my guy'?

The thread title is silly, the topic of debating baseball is not . It IS absolutely silly to think Ozzie Smith could not start for half the teams (that is the silly part)

The thread is excellent because it progressed off of the original question...Dawoof asked you to comment on which players you would take over Ozzie in todays game, but you either missed it or decided against.

And why you would think I'm mad , I don't really get that....If you feel I've given you the business here to harshly I apologize...it's all part of posting...not sure why you said I can't take it, when I get hammered probably more than any other poster, it doesn't stop me.

 

[Dawoofdaddy]

Why is Ozzie being compared to Trammell when the thread question deals with guys currently playing the position?

Id still like for iceman or anyone else to actually list 15 current mlb team starting ss that would start over ozzie during prime of his career.

 

[fhmesq44]

Why is Ozzie being compared to Trammell when the thread question deals with guys currently playing the position?

Id still like for iceman or anyone else to actually list 15 current mlb team starting ss that would start over ozzie during prime of his career.

here are espn fantasy rankings, only using this b/c it was the easiest place to find all the SS in one spot

1 Jose Reyes NYM 671 119 198 16 75 45 85 65 .295 .339 .464
2 Miguel Tejada BAL 650 98 209 26 107 45 79 5 .321 .369 .508
3 Jimmy Rollins PHI 681 123 202 18 74 54 77 36 .296 .350 .468
4 Derek Jeter NYY 613 114 195 16 82 66 103 25 .317 .392 .463
The Rest
5 Hanley Ramirez FLA 619 105 171 14 49 64 130 46 .276 .343 .447
6 Michael Young TEX 690 102 219 18 100 50 94 7 .318 .363 .476
7 Rafael Furcal LAD 630 108 185 14 61 68 89 38 .293 .360 .436
8 Carlos Guillen DET 539 97 172 18 84 62 86 16 .320 .391 .518
9 Felipe Lopez WSH 597 94 163 9 56 70 129 45 .274 .350 .381
10 Bill Hall MIL 478 79 122 25 85 55 126 11 .255 .329 .502
11 Edgar Renteria ATL 602 98 173 12 70 57 90 15 .288 .350 .418
12 Julio Lugo BOS 581 97 166 12 54 55 85 20 .287 .351 .420
13 Orlando Cabrera LAA 548 79 150 8 62 42 51 22 .273 .324 .391
14 Freddy Sanchez PIT 549 75 175 6 68 29 49 3 .319 .355 .435
15 Stephen Drew ARZ 493 64 127 17 54 39 93 7 .257 .309 .451
16 Rich Aurilia SF 358 49 103 15 54 29 49 2 .287 .341 .475
17 Omar Vizquel SF 574 82 166 4 55 56 54 23 .289 .355 .379
18 Jhonny Peralta CLE 562 83 153 19 75 61 145 0 .272 .344 .442
19 Juan Uribe CHW 506 62 125 21 76 22 89 3 .247 .279 .443
20 Bobby Crosby OAK 452 63 110 13 51 46 94 7 .242 .313 .381
21 Khalil Greene SD 429 56 107 15 60 38 90 5 .250 .318 .431
22 Jason Bartlett MIN 523 84 162 6 38 60 81 14 .311 .381 .420
23 Nick Punto MIN 475 72 129 3 45 49 83 19 .271 .338 .355
24 Troy Tulowitzki COL 448 77 123 14 57 42 80 2 .275 .335 .446
25 Yuniesky Betancourt SEA 531 63 148 6 43 20 54 15 .279 .306 .393

 

[betedgeonly]

Y'all are crazy...defense up the middle is huge. Plus, his career batting numbers would be better if he played in his prime during the juiced ball era. Ozzy would start at SS for 25 of 32 teams.

I tend to disagree totally. If he couldn't hit the ball the way it was then, then he damn sure could not hit a "juiced" ball. It takes talent to be a great or even good hitter. He was neither. He is so overrated.