It is kind of a two pronged question - (i) could he BREAK IN as a young player; and (ii) once broken in how many guys could he replace?
The game has a changed a ton since 1978 and he would have a much much harder time breaking in to a starting lineup than he actually did. Back then offense from your middle infielders was a bonus. Now, while it isn't a necessity per se it certainly isn't a luxury either.
If he were a 20-25 y/o current day player with his skill set he would have trouble breaking the line up for somewhere close to 2/3 of the teams, maybe more (I didn't look through rosters so that could be high or low). If a guy like Orlando Cabrera can break into a lineup with a similar skill set, Ozzie could. Cabrera is a solid player, good (not great) defensively, .269 career hitter, a little more power and a little less speed.
However, if he were 27 y/o Ozzie Smith with 4 years under his belt, he could bump all but about 4-7 guys (again, I didn't look, but off the top of my head he couldn't bump Jeter, Young, Reyes, Tejada, maybe Crosby, who else?).
My .02.
The game has a changed a ton since 1978 and he would have a much much harder time breaking in to a starting lineup than he actually did. Back then offense from your middle infielders was a bonus. Now, while it isn't a necessity per se it certainly isn't a luxury either.
If he were a 20-25 y/o current day player with his skill set he would have trouble breaking the line up for somewhere close to 2/3 of the teams, maybe more (I didn't look through rosters so that could be high or low). If a guy like Orlando Cabrera can break into a lineup with a similar skill set, Ozzie could. Cabrera is a solid player, good (not great) defensively, .269 career hitter, a little more power and a little less speed.
However, if he were 27 y/o Ozzie Smith with 4 years under his belt, he could bump all but about 4-7 guys (again, I didn't look, but off the top of my head he couldn't bump Jeter, Young, Reyes, Tejada, maybe Crosby, who else?).
My .02.
Sam will be missed...but they are playing their best basketball of the season. Dunleavy refused to play Maggette during the season but has been forced to because of injuries. If I had to choose either Maggette or Cassell, I would much rather have Maggette on the floor. Hart has been doing a great job at PG.
I think we will give whoever we matchup with a run for their money (Dallas/Phoenix/San Antonio).
The original question pertained to 'his heyday'...ask every manager in baseball if they could have Ozzie would they take him and start him, I doubt anyone would say no.
I guess we have to start putting asterisks by our posts now so no one takes offense, or chimes in and informs us how litte we know (SR)
First off, yes he would start for over half the teams in MLB currently.
However, Ozzie Smith is overrated.
Defense wins championships but it's all about finding a BALANCE.
What about very solid shortstops (BUT NOT QUITE AS GOOD) who also could swing the bat when needed.
Ozzies plays were spectacular but OVERATED, he was a show off.
Did some of his play save runs? Yes. How many of his at bats SACRIFICED runs? Alot.
Ozzie Smith is one of the best shortstops, if not THE to play the game. The question is how much of his offense was a liability. Smith had speed which is what puts the icing on the cake as far as HOF because he created.
I still think this question isn't as silly as people are making it out to be as this is a topic that comes up around baseball folk quite often.
The SS we should really be talking about is Phil Rizzuto. If he wasn't a NYY, would he be in the Hall?
However, Ozzie Smith is overrated.
Defense wins championships but it's all about finding a BALANCE.
What about very solid shortstops (BUT NOT QUITE AS GOOD) who also could swing the bat when needed.
Ozzies plays were spectacular but OVERATED, he was a show off.
Did some of his play save runs? Yes. How many of his at bats SACRIFICED runs? Alot.
Ozzie Smith is one of the best shortstops, if not THE to play the game. The question is how much of his offense was a liability. Smith had speed which is what puts the icing on the cake as far as HOF because he created.
I still think this question isn't as silly as people are making it out to be as this is a topic that comes up around baseball folk quite often.
The SS we should really be talking about is Phil Rizzuto. If he wasn't a NYY, would he be in the Hall?
You probably can break this down and prove to a degree how many runs ozzie has saved. How many times a game does a shortstop make a play on the ball that is not "routine"? On average maybe 3 or 4? out of these 3 or 4 how many times does it contribute to getting the out that would have otherwise scored a run?
Ozzie was great at his position. Probably the best ever. To say that out of 3 or 4 non routine balls he saves him team 1/2 run is downright absurd.
Ozzie was great at his position. Probably the best ever. To say that out of 3 or 4 non routine balls he saves him team 1/2 run is downright absurd.
It's no that hard to save a run every other game if you make a play with men on base or even take a way a base hit to start an inning..I suppose the best way to figure how many runs he saved a season would be to figure how many hits he took away.
51% of batters who reach base with no outs score....but this isn't the subject being debated.
I'm not even a big Ozzie fan or a fan of little ball.
ACCEPTABLE ONLY IF THE OLD PLAYERS WERE ELECTED DURING THEIR TIME....
Tinkers and Evers got into the Hall in the 1940's for example. Obviously players at the era of baseball they played in their induction and #'s will look askew as compared to decades later.
Rizzuto was elected in the 1990's (95?) by the Veterans. Almost 40 years later (since he retired)! The Yankees are my team and I loved Scooter as an announcer, but it's bullshit. He's by far the worst HOF induction that I'm aware of.
Taking a timespan of 7-10 years into consideration, Fishhead says that Ozzie Smith would make his top fifty of most valuable players he has ever seen play in 40 years of watching major league baseball and believes as great as he was, is still very underrated, with this thread being a case in point on that.
You ended the debate with those outrageous statements right there.
Everyone else in this thread should be discussing amongst themselves, and not with you...because when you make statements like that, you're essentially saying that you refuse to acknowledge that someone could reasonably disagree with your opinion. So what's the point in debating with someone so close-minded and stubborn? That isn't a debate. That's you telling everyone that they're stupid for disagreeing, and that you are more knowledgeable than everybody else, and that are the authority on everything baseball. Guess what? You're not.
Seems to me that you don't love DEBATING baseball. You just love telling everyone that you're right about everything when it comes to baseball. That's not a debate at all.
And what's the point of debating when you're right, when you are 100% correct and everyone else's opinions are WRONG? Just tell everyone that you're right, and move on, because there's no need for a debate, right?
Reasonable minds can differ.
You speak as if your opinion is fact. It's not.
Imagine being in an ACTUAL debate, behind a podium, in front of an audience. Would you make your argument, then end it with, "I'm right, the opponent is wrong. That's the bottom line."
Of course not.
And you can argue your point till the day you die, as best as you possibly can...and there will STILL be people out there who disagree with you. That's just the way it is. The sooner you accept that, the better. And the sooner you accept that your opinion is not fact, the better. Then actual debating and quality conversation can occur.
Of course not.
And you can argue your point till the day you die, as best as you possibly can...and there will STILL be people out there who disagree with you. That's just the way it is. The sooner you accept that, the better. And the sooner you accept that your opinion is not fact, the better. Then actual debating and quality conversation can occur.
Yea like when you go around calling people 'idiot' for no reason, you do this more than anyone, come into another thread and tell people how 'stupid' they are or how this is the 'dumbest thread you have ever seen' or telling everyone 'RR' because you disagree....I didn't even see your opinion in this thread.
I was making a joke when i said I was right...you know how when you tell people to kill theirself then claim it was a joke, or when you call a poster a ******? What is the difference ?
You take this stuff way too serious, every thread you come in that I say anything in that you reply to, it's always something you take way too literally....same thing again.
And then you say how negative everyone else is, that's pretty weak.
He made 28.6 million career, and played as late as 1996.
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>1985</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,440,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1986</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,940,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1987</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,940,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1988</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,340,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1989</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,240,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1990</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,975,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1991</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,225,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1992</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1993</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1994</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1995</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1996</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,500,000</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Career <SMALL>(may be incomplete)</SMALL></TD><TD align=right>$28,600,000</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>1985</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,440,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1986</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,940,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1987</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,940,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1988</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,340,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1989</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,240,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1990</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$1,975,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1991</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,225,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1992</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$2,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1993</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1994</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1995</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,000,000</TD></TR><TR><TD>1996</TD><TD>St. Louis Cardinals</TD><TD align=right>$3,500,000</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Career <SMALL>(may be incomplete)</SMALL></TD><TD align=right>$28,600,000</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Im with Journey on this one. Skins comes in and say he KNOWS when someone in full of shit. So not only does he know more than someone he knows if someone is telling the truth as well.
I have no prob with Skins its just he dont go by whats good for the goose is good for the gander at all.
Lets all be dicks or we all be kind. I dont care either way but lets stay steady
