Could Ozzie Smith in his heyday start for over half the teams in MLB currently

[themanej2001]

If he was a first ballot hall of famer than shouldn't it be a question he should be in the top 3 on that list and he is not (that is my opinion) in the top 10. I guess we value defense differently than each other. I just don't think his defense makes up for his offensive defineices. I guess when looking up his numbers I didn't realize how bad they were for a first ballot hall of famer, espcially comparing to this era of SS. It's not like he played in 1924 or something.

The worst part is I have always been for the speedy little guy who over acheives in their sport.

Going off the list:
1. Reyes
2. Tejada
3. Rollins
4. Jeter
5. Ramirez
6. Young
7. Furcal
8. Guillen
9. Hall
10. Sanchez
11. Vizquel (very comparable career but may not get in and should if Ozzie did)
12. Peralta
13. Uribe
14. Arod (if he was any other team)

Are you on Drugs Ice? Uribe? I am a die hard White Sox fan and you are telling me you would take Juan Uribe over Ozzie Smith? Peralta? Well besides the fact that they are equal hitting wise, and Ozzie is 100% the defensive player I guess I agree. Carlos Guillen is one of the worst defensive SS in baseball, so bad that he often DH's. Bill Hall plays third base and the outfield. Vizquel is just a lesser version of Ozzie. A-ROD DOES NOT PLAY SS ANYMORE!
Jimmy Rollins is very average and in no way that much better of a hitter to be compared to Ozzie when you account for defense. This list is absurd, you may have 5 guys on that list that the team wouldn't trade there player for Ozzie. But the fact that you put Uribe and Peralta on there lets it be known that you are reallly reallllllllllllly stretching to make a list.

 

[themanej2001]

I don't think it would matter, you either can hit ir you can't. He just was not that great of a hitter to get in the HOF first time ballot. IMO.

Ozzie Smith had almost 2500 hits, and after starting his career slowly he really figured it out. He was always around .275 in the last 11 years of his career. And he had a career OBP of .340... and if it weren't for the crappy start to his career he would have been around .360 which most guys would like to see out of there lead off hitter in the modern day.

WHO CARES HOW MANY JACKS HE HIT...

Let me ask you this, should the greatest hitter of all time be a first ballot hall of famer if he was a below average fielder?

I think the answer to that question for most of you would be yes no doubt. Well then why should the greatest fielder of all time not be a first ballot hall of famer? Having the greatest defensive short stop of all time playing behind you as a pitcher, and as a team is a hell of a lot more important then a guy who hits 40 HR's a year and drives in 100 Runs. There is a reason there are 10+ guys that do that every year in the bigs, and that there is only one guy that could do what Ozzie did with his glove.

 

[betedgeonly]

Ozzie Smith had almost 2500 hits, and after starting his career slowly he really figured it out. He was always around .275 in the last 11 years of his career. And he had a career OBP of .340... and if it weren't for the crappy start to his career he would have been around .360 which most guys would like to see out of there lead off hitter in the modern day.

WHO CARES HOW MANY JACKS HE HIT...

Let me ask you this, should the greatest hitter of all time be a first ballot hall of famer if he was a below average fielder?

I think the answer to that question for most of you would be yes no doubt. Well then why should the greatest fielder of all time not be a first ballot hall of famer? Having the greatest defensive short stop of all time playing behind you as a pitcher, and as a team is a hell of a lot more important then a guy who hits 40 HR's a year and drives in 100 Runs. There is a reason there are 10+ guys that do that every year in the bigs, and that there is only one guy that could do what Ozzie did with his glove.

IMO I believe that alot more games are won at the plate then lost to a shortstop. And A-Rod would play short for anybody but the Yank's cause Jeter is just the best in the game rt now at short.

 

[themanej2001]

IMO I believe that alot more games are won at the plate then lost to a shortstop. And A-Rod would play short for anybody but the Yank's cause Jeter is just the best in the game rt now at short.

And Jeter isn't better then A-Rod. If Jeter was a true team leader he would have moved over to third for the better defensive player to play short.

Also games may be won at the plate but how often does someone get a game winning RBI? I understand you need to score to win but you also have to stop them from scoring to win.

The most game winning RBI's in a career is 129 by Keith Hernandez. 129 GAME WINNINGS RBI'S. I would guess Ozzie probably has as many gave saving plays as that wouldn't you think?

I understand every play Ozzie makes doesn't make or break the game. But I also understand every HR and every RBI does not make or break the game either. That is why I consider these things close to equal. Because although he may have not hit. See you are acting like every HR or RBI is so important but it is not. Just like every play Ozzie made was not so important.

But as I said I would bet Ozzie had 129 game saving plays... wouldn't you? But that is overlooked because he didn't hit a walk off HR he just made a play that he made all the time, and plays that no one else could make?

 

[betedgeonly]

And Jeter isn't better then A-Rod. If Jeter was a true team leader he would have moved over to third for the better defensive player to play short.

Also games may be won at the plate but how often does someone get a game winning RBI? I understand you need to score to win but you also have to stop them from scoring to win.

The most game winning RBI's in a career is 129 by Keith Hernandez. 129 GAME WINNINGS RBI'S. I would guess Ozzie probably has as many gave saving plays as that wouldn't you think?

I understand every play Ozzie makes doesn't make or break the game. But I also understand every HR and every RBI does not make or break the game either. That is why I consider these things close to equal. Because although he may have not hit. See you are acting like every HR or RBI is so important but it is not. Just like every play Ozzie made was not so important.

But as I said I would bet Ozzie had 129 game saving plays... wouldn't you? But that is overlooked because he didn't hit a walk off HR he just made a play that he made all the time, and plays that no one else could make?

Read post # 85. You might get where I am coming from about a first time ballot inductee. I still believe that alot more games would be won at hte plate and that Ozzie may have had 129 game saving play's seem's a little high to me. Unless you know that for sure that he did. I don't know myself.

 

[themanej2001]

Read post # 85. You might get where I am coming from about a first time ballot inductee. I still believe that alot more games would be won at hte plate and that Ozzie may have had 129 game saving play's seem's a little high to me. Unless you know that for sure that he did. I don't know myself.

IDK if he did or not, because they don't keep stats for that. That is the problem, defensive stats are so vague and offensive ones are not. So that makes an offensive player appear to be more important. Like you can have a 1.000 fielding percentage but be a weak fielder because you have no range so you only get to the routine plays.

Also you have to remember that is the most Game Winning RBI's in the history of baseball so even if Ozzie was close that would be incredible. And we are acting like Ozzie was the worst hitter in the league or something...

 

[Journeyman]

GWRBI stat was only around briefly in the 1980's...

 

[betedgeonly]

I guess that all I am trying to say is that if Ozzie got in that quick, alot more player's should be in also, espically from a team like the DETROIT TIGERS from the 80's, who carried the best record through that decade.It is just my opinion.

 

[Iceman]

Really don't have the energy to go thru this again tonite.

Now the legend grows to 129 game saving plays in his career. Please dont take offense Manej as I mean no disrespect but I have to ask you the same question Journey asked me "How much of Ozzie Smith's career have you seen?" as I know you are really young and Smith has been out of the game for 10+ years now.


To answer your question: Yes, I would rather have SS that hit 20 HR's and has a slugging pct 100 pt's higher (plus Uribe is 27 and Peralta is 24)that plays an average defense over him. The argument lies in the fact in what you are looking for in a player and after following Bill James and the baseball prospectus guys I feel that his defense does not make up for his lack of production behind the plate. It is what you prefer and without a doubt I have my thoughts and opinions and feel strongly abou them. Maybe I was tramatized as a kid with the weak Start-O- Matic card of his:lol:

Until someone can truly put a number on how much his defense won games than I would not take him over alot of players in todays game. I have watched baseball my whole life and I do not see all these opputrunites that some others here feel come up and that is why and where we differ. Did he make great plays? YES but to effect as many games as others here are saying just dont hold up to me. Hitting homeruns or driving in runs, put runs on the board EVERYTIME and this is the bottom line to measure production(IMO).

I feel the best way to judge a player is when he goes one on one versus the pitcher. I dont think you guys are giving enough credit to most of the shortstops defensively in the game. They all make big plays from time to time and though others will contine to throw stats out the window Ozzie did make some errors (and please no because he got to balls most didnt. We can never argue that), he was human, though some here will make you to believe otherwise.

The true question is how many plays over the average SS did he make a year and I just dont see that many more that equated to runs on (or should I say off) the board. I already know the answer to how the competing SS I have mentioned compare to him offensively speaking and it is not pretty. The reason you will probably never see another player like him in the game is because teams will most likely not take the chance to bring along a no hitting defenive shortstop (unless to be used as a late inning replacement type) and give him 550+ at bats a game.

On a side note: Carlos Guillen played ZERO games at DH last year and over 140+ games at SS. He once had the reputation of a defensive SS earlier in his career and has hit .318-.320 3 straight seasons and though he had a bad defensive season last year (mostly throwing errors) I watched around 120 Tiger games last season and can promise you Smith makes maybe 1 play Guillen can't every 5 games as most of the stuff is routine (and I think that is pushing it) and I can promise you a guy who hit .320 and with a slg pct almost 200 points HIGHER than Smith makes more of an impact in their games and the worst part is Guillen won't get a sniff of the HOF but Smith is a first ballot guy.


The oppurtunity with the bat and the importance far out weigh the glove and most GM"s nowadays feel the same way. Hell a team like the Yankees go out every year and win 95 games and don't think much about team defense. I am going to make an extra special effort to try and watch defense and it's importance in a game this season. I was a huge Brandon Inge hater early last season (still not a huge fan) but I watched him time and time again make alot great plays and Jim Leyland said all the time in the press he should have won a gold glove (I dont agree) but I still dont think he made more than 15 spectacular plays all year(not even sure how many plays ended up saving runs) and Leyland said it was the most great plays he had ever seen out of a 3B in all the years he had been around the game.


Please dont get me wrong as I think defense has its value but I must feel at a different level than some here think. I guess until someone can put a number on it instead of "he was great because I seen him make great plays" that will be my thoughts. I have always been a huge stat freak/numbers guy, maybe a little too numbers crazy. Because of that I will always have my own thoughts and opinions of it and guys like Ozzie Smith will never get their due respect from me( as if anyone really cares what I think. LOL).


(Damn said I would not do this again and I just wasted another 15 minutes posting this crap:lolBIG: . I am going to bed before this gets out of hand again!!!!!!!!)

 

[Doug]

Do you regret starting this thread,Ice ?

 

[themanej2001]

Juan Uribe had a lower batting AVG last year then Ozzie Smith ever did in his whole career. You are arguing that you would take Uribe over Smith. I just can not asses this and I will end talking right here. Juan Uribe does not belong in the same sentence as Ozzie Smith. And why is it all about numbers? The game of baseball is about much more then numbers. SO since they don't take defensive statistics as in detail as offensive ones he should suffer? I will listen to the guys who vote for the hall and the managers who call him a top 3 SS of all time. Because they know a hell of a lot more about the game then me and you and they understand the game isn't all about Stats. You find me the last time the team with the best team on paper won the world series.

 

[Highdaddy]

i live in the detroit area, and i would take ozzie over trammell EVERY time.

also, there is no way Trammell should be in the HOF....i would put Lou

Whitaker in before him. One thing that kept Alan's stats down was

Sparky Anderson....he would always give guys days off, no tigers ever

played every game

 

[themanej2001]

And defensive teams have won a hell of a lot more titles then offensive teams. Pitching is the first line of defense in baseball, then your defense in general. Usually a team with great defense has a great shot at the postseason. See the Minnesota Twins. Why don't you ask the Cleveland Indians of the 1990's how having a great offensive squad worked out for them. I think you are really ignoring defense in the game of baseball. You can hit 260 as a team but have great defense and pitching and win the world series, White Sox 2006. But you will not be able to hit 300 have average pitching and terrible defense and win the world series.

Also Carlos Guillen had 178 put outs last season and 28 errors. Ozzie Smith never had that few put outs in his career playing over 100 games ina season. He averaged about 250 I think which shows range... So about 70 more which would equal close to making one more play every other game and he made 72 more outs on average a year then Guillen, on balls that most likely he couldn't get to...

 

[fhmesq44]

Ice,

Not to stir the pot, but I gave you a sampling of his numbers compared with other SS, both average and supposedly great SS and his are absurdly better.

He averaged 1 out per game more than the average SS over his career and basically averaged 65 more assists per season for a 12 season stretch as compared with Vizquel's BEST season (that is, 540 average for Ozzie and 475 best for Omar).

Like I said in the original post, I have no way to quantify that in saved games or runs, but an out/game over an average SS is a HUGE amount. Also, FWIW, Jeter has averaged ~75 RBI over the course of his career, Smith averaged almost 50. I'm not sure if I think that is a lot or a little. Given the changes in the game, NYY offense compared with STL, AL v. NL, I tend to think it isn't all that much.

 

[fhmesq44]

i live in the detroit area, and i would take ozzie over trammell EVERY time.

also, there is no way Trammell should be in the HOF....i would put Lou

Whitaker in before him. One thing that kept Alan's stats down was

Sparky Anderson....he would always give guys days off, no tigers ever

played every game

Jack Morris is the one that should be in the hall.

 

[royalfan]

This thread is silly. He would easily start for most teams. His defensive range is awesome. He wouldn't start over Guillen? Are you fucking kidding me? The range defensively of those two is night and day. The edge Guillen has on offense is a large one but not near enough as what the wizard saves you on defense.

 

[royalfan]

Iceman is DRASTICALLY underestimating the importance of range defensively at that position if he thinks Guillen is better. By the way Ozzie's offensive numbers would also be better in this hitting dominated game. Runs and rbi's would be up a lot for him.

 

[WVU]

royalfan if you had to guess how many runs did Ozzie save per year on defense over the average shortstop?

 

[royalfan]

royalfan if you had to guess how many runs did Ozzie save per year on defense over the average shortstop?

about 80-100 over a guy like guillen. Gotta remember it is not just the direct runs saved by making a great play with two outs, but all the two out rallies that would have happened had he not made the plays he did. That is what people like Iceman are not figuring in correctly. By the way, I did not read much of the thread, as I don't need to as I do understand the importance here. It also depends on the team he is playing on. The worse the staff the more runs he saves.

 

[WVU]

runs not hits. Are you saying 80-100 runs in a season? As in 15% of the total runs?