If he was a first ballot hall of famer than shouldn't it be a question he should be in the top 3 on that list and he is not (that is my opinion) in the top 10. I guess we value defense differently than each other. I just don't think his defense makes up for his offensive defineices. I guess when looking up his numbers I didn't realize how bad they were for a first ballot hall of famer, espcially comparing to this era of SS. It's not like he played in 1924 or something.
The worst part is I have always been for the speedy little guy who over acheives in their sport.
Going off the list:
1. Reyes
2. Tejada
3. Rollins
4. Jeter
5. Ramirez
6. Young
7. Furcal
8. Guillen
9. Hall
10. Sanchez
11. Vizquel (very comparable career but may not get in and should if Ozzie did)
12. Peralta
13. Uribe
14. Arod (if he was any other team)
Okay I was wrong 13 teams. Not quite half. Now tell me I am wrong cause you guys seen him play when you were in your teens and he looked like an acrobatic player.:lolBIG:
I dont think it was or is silly but a legit question as pertaining to how the game has changed. Not mad at you. Really have alot better things to do and need to get away but keep coming back to this thread, one in which I feel much like a few others, I was right or very close to my opening statement.
I guess I will end with my final statement that I feel more strongly that he maybe the most overrated player in hall of fame history (at least during my ERA).
A good solid defensive player but a first ballot hall of famer, no way!!!!!
No hard feelings. Agree to disagree? Okay?
I dont think it was or is silly but a legit question as pertaining to how the game has changed. Not mad at you. Really have alot better things to do and need to get away but keep coming back to this thread, one in which I feel much like a few others, I was right or very close to my opening statement.
I guess I will end with my final statement that I feel more strongly that he maybe the most overrated player in hall of fame history (at least during my ERA).
A good solid defensive player but a first ballot hall of famer, no way!!!!!
No hard feelings. Agree to disagree? Okay?
After taking a closer look at this , I am even more convinced that everything I said was correct...we will just have to disagree here, I usually agree with you on most things too, that is what's kinda funny.
:modemman:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defense_over_the_last_twenty_years/
The Wizard
I think we’ll start with the names. Who is first? Well, it seems to me the best place to start is with the best defensive player of all-time. I am one of Ozzie Smith’s biggest detractors. I suppose the only person whose defense I consider as overrated as Ozzie’s is Andruw Jones, but when the title awarded is “Greatest of All Time”, it really isn’t difficult to be called “overrated”. That’s a very high rating.
I always have thought the Wizard of Oz was a great fielder. One of the best. My position has generally been that while he is a great fielder, he is not some defensive god that is somehow unapproachable by any other defensive player. Yes, he had lots of assists and a big range factor (RF), but he also always got a lot of ground balls hit to shortstop. Garry Templeton had some great RFs in St. Louis and San Diego also.
We don’t have ZR for Ozzie’s peak. He was a stellar defensive player from 1978-1986 and thirty years old before I get to see his first defensive ratings. As MGL and Tango have noted, defensive skills decline like offensive skills do, so it is a reasonable assertion to think that whatever numbers we see for Ozzie, we can assume that his peak was slightly higher, and the seasons we have are somewhat during his decline.
For Oz, we have 10 seasons and 10,000 innings played. From 1987 to 2005, no other shortstop in baseball saved as many runs above average as did Ozzie Smith. Over his career, and based on the gap between Ozzie and nearly every other shortstop, it is more than reasonably argued that he is the greatest fielding shortstop of all time. And again, this is almost all decline phase – or past-peak nonetheless. I think he was on a plateau for a decade. In the NL, the closest shortstop over his career was still more than fifty runs behind.
For the decade, Ozzie was 130 RSpt. Going through the data, it is quite amazing that any player stands that far above his peers.
YEAR POS NAME TEAM LG GP INN RSpt RS/1501987 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 158 1356.3 12 121988 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 150 1330.0 22 231989 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 153 1336.3 23 231990 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 140 1203.3 23 261991 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 150 1253.3 16 171992 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 132 1156.3 13 151993 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 134 1138.3 16 191994 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 96 822.0 -3 -51995 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 41 343.3 3 101996 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 52 443.7 5 17 10 yrs SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 1206 10383.0 130 156</PRE>
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The Wizard
I think we’ll start with the names. Who is first? Well, it seems to me the best place to start is with the best defensive player of all-time. I am one of Ozzie Smith’s biggest detractors. I suppose the only person whose defense I consider as overrated as Ozzie’s is Andruw Jones, but when the title awarded is “Greatest of All Time”, it really isn’t difficult to be called “overrated”. That’s a very high rating.
I always have thought the Wizard of Oz was a great fielder. One of the best. My position has generally been that while he is a great fielder, he is not some defensive god that is somehow unapproachable by any other defensive player. Yes, he had lots of assists and a big range factor (RF), but he also always got a lot of ground balls hit to shortstop. Garry Templeton had some great RFs in St. Louis and San Diego also.
We don’t have ZR for Ozzie’s peak. He was a stellar defensive player from 1978-1986 and thirty years old before I get to see his first defensive ratings. As MGL and Tango have noted, defensive skills decline like offensive skills do, so it is a reasonable assertion to think that whatever numbers we see for Ozzie, we can assume that his peak was slightly higher, and the seasons we have are somewhat during his decline.
For Oz, we have 10 seasons and 10,000 innings played. From 1987 to 2005, no other shortstop in baseball saved as many runs above average as did Ozzie Smith. Over his career, and based on the gap between Ozzie and nearly every other shortstop, it is more than reasonably argued that he is the greatest fielding shortstop of all time. And again, this is almost all decline phase – or past-peak nonetheless. I think he was on a plateau for a decade. In the NL, the closest shortstop over his career was still more than fifty runs behind.
For the decade, Ozzie was 130 RSpt. Going through the data, it is quite amazing that any player stands that far above his peers.
YEAR POS NAME TEAM LG GP INN RSpt RS/1501987 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 158 1356.3 12 121988 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 150 1330.0 22 231989 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 153 1336.3 23 231990 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 140 1203.3 23 261991 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 150 1253.3 16 171992 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 132 1156.3 13 151993 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 134 1138.3 16 191994 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 96 822.0 -3 -51995 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 41 343.3 3 101996 SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 52 443.7 5 17 10 yrs SS Ozzie Smith StL NL 1206 10383.0 130 156</PRE>
</PRE>
</PRE>
Comparing to this era of SS is apples to oranges. I realize that is the entire debate, but until ~1995, only Ripken and Banks really hit as a SS. Trammell was at the higher end of hitters for SS and the Padres were the team that supposedly got the better end of that deal b/c they got Templeton, one of the best hitting SS at the time, if not the best.
Smith's numbers actually aren't bad for a pre-1995 SS. He was an atrocious hitter early in his career (.220 like), but he improved quite a bit over his career and was a reasonably productive hitter during the STL best years.
The list is littered with Bucky Dent, Rafael Santana, Bill Russell, Concepcion, Belanger, Rick Burleson, Dickie Thon, Freddie Patek, Alfredo Griffen, Walt Weiss type players. Those guys weren't the exception, they were the rule until 1995.
I still think he starts over all but about 6 or 8 of those guys if you had some history of his major league ability to judge, but at the same time think he would have a hard time breaking into the lineup for all but about 8 teams if you only have his minor league career to judge. The game has changed too much for most teams to give a guy like him a chance without knowing he would be the best defensive SS ever.
Smith's numbers actually aren't bad for a pre-1995 SS. He was an atrocious hitter early in his career (.220 like), but he improved quite a bit over his career and was a reasonably productive hitter during the STL best years.
The list is littered with Bucky Dent, Rafael Santana, Bill Russell, Concepcion, Belanger, Rick Burleson, Dickie Thon, Freddie Patek, Alfredo Griffen, Walt Weiss type players. Those guys weren't the exception, they were the rule until 1995.
I still think he starts over all but about 6 or 8 of those guys if you had some history of his major league ability to judge, but at the same time think he would have a hard time breaking into the lineup for all but about 8 teams if you only have his minor league career to judge. The game has changed too much for most teams to give a guy like him a chance without knowing he would be the best defensive SS ever.
hno:I might not have taken them if it was'nt for betmania's line. I also like the fact that I am fading the public on this....at leeast the public i have talked to....Who do you have tonite? Don't gget me wrong, but I believe that Ozzie is a hall of famer, but a first time vote in, no. I love def as much as off., but his off is a little to weak to get in that fast. Like another poster commented on, "how many run's did he leave on base, and in close games when they were on the line?" GO BUCKEYES!
