infield fielding is over rated unless you have premier gorund ball pitchers all though the staff.
Ozzie Smith was one of the best fielders to ever play, but his lack of power would hurt his team offensively. He may save his team 20-30 runs with his stellar play, but in some circumstances he would be giving up 20-30 on offense.
Ozzie Smith was one of the best fielders to ever play, but his lack of power would hurt his team offensively. He may save his team 20-30 runs with his stellar play, but in some circumstances he would be giving up 20-30 on offense.
For a first ballot Hall of Famer the answer should be a guarantee yes and it isnt.
I say there is at least 10 teams he could not bump the SS currently out of their spots. Not talking about moving guys around I saying could he play over the guy currently their. You guys act like this current crop of SS can't field their posistion.
My major point is the game has changed alot since his era. Not a rip on him as much as how important the SS posistion is nowadays from all around standpoint. He would absolutley kill you offensively speaking. He made what 20-30 (and that might be stretch) great fantastic plays all year which in turn saved you what 10-20 runs all season. In my opinion that might be a stretch.
Just not that many oppurtunities to make diving catches or whatever spectacular thing he did with his glove but he still would have 600 or so chances with the bat and those would out weigh the 20 great plays a year he made.
If I was the manager of another team he would be somebody I wouldn't mind playing against and I can't say that about 10 current SS in the game. Remember this is a so called first ballot hall of famer. The game has change and his style has been phased out (IMO).
I say there is at least 10 teams he could not bump the SS currently out of their spots. Not talking about moving guys around I saying could he play over the guy currently their. You guys act like this current crop of SS can't field their posistion.
My major point is the game has changed alot since his era. Not a rip on him as much as how important the SS posistion is nowadays from all around standpoint. He would absolutley kill you offensively speaking. He made what 20-30 (and that might be stretch) great fantastic plays all year which in turn saved you what 10-20 runs all season. In my opinion that might be a stretch.
Just not that many oppurtunities to make diving catches or whatever spectacular thing he did with his glove but he still would have 600 or so chances with the bat and those would out weigh the 20 great plays a year he made.
If I was the manager of another team he would be somebody I wouldn't mind playing against and I can't say that about 10 current SS in the game. Remember this is a so called first ballot hall of famer. The game has change and his style has been phased out (IMO).
Smith stole 580 career bases, 20th on the all-time list. But his most potent asset were his glove and his defensive reflexes, with which he often won more ball games than the hitters on his team did.
Former manager Whitey Herzog claimed that at his peak Smith saved 75 runs per year with his glove.
Times may have changed but when it's all said and done pitching and defense still prevail...he would start at shortstop on every team, and in the few cases the team had a power hitting shortstop like Tejada, they would move him to 3rd base.
A half a run a year is huge, Ice man I really can't believe you on this subject, someone who is always talking about the bottom line and getting the best number...a half a run saved a season is night and day.
The shortstop position is important today just as it was 100 years ago...a baseball game centers around that position in so many aspects, always has and always will.
How can the 20th all-time base stealer absolutely kill you?
Save 10-20 runs a year? This is silly!
You mention all the time how you don't even watch the games you bet on...I doubt you saw Ozzie Smith play 10 full games in your lifetime.
Former manager Whitey Herzog claimed that at his peak Smith saved 75 runs per year with his glove.
Times may have changed but when it's all said and done pitching and defense still prevail...he would start at shortstop on every team, and in the few cases the team had a power hitting shortstop like Tejada, they would move him to 3rd base.
A half a run a year is huge, Ice man I really can't believe you on this subject, someone who is always talking about the bottom line and getting the best number...a half a run saved a season is night and day.
The shortstop position is important today just as it was 100 years ago...a baseball game centers around that position in so many aspects, always has and always will.
How can the 20th all-time base stealer absolutely kill you?
Save 10-20 runs a year? This is silly!
You mention all the time how you don't even watch the games you bet on...I doubt you saw Ozzie Smith play 10 full games in your lifetime.
Journey I can promise you my knowldege of baseball is top 99% on this site espicially 1980's baseball. If I didn't watch him play it was because I didn't have Cards games but being a WGN guy back in the 80's I grew up with Harry Caray and Steve Stone.
Please don't mistake me or put me in the same category of the so called generatinon x that you are ridculing here. Did you grow up watching Cardinal games? How could you? That is sort of weak. Come on. I am 36 years old this summer. I kept up with the game my whole life at a level that most haven't. Not bragging but please don't act like I wasn't a huge baseball fan. 10 games his whole career? I am not sure how many you claimed to watch but I can promise you if they were on TV I probably watched them so can't be much further behind you.
How about BoB Dernier, Keith Moreland, Jody Davis, Leon Durham, Lee Smith, Rick Sutcliffe, Ron Cey, Ryne Sandberg (and those are just off the top of my head). I watched national league baseball and was a huge huge baseball fan growing up. I have many times on here said that the game Strat O Matic baseball helped shape me into the guy I am today because of that game I haven't meant many people in my lifetime that took sports more serious than myself.
I don't watch the sports I bet on for numerous reasons (it is hoops) as I am a huge baseball and football (NFL) fan. I haven't missed a Detroit Lions game in probalby 20 years and that is a guarnatee and probalby have watch 70% of the Tigers game since 1986 (when cable hit my town). As big a fan as they come. I am sitting in front of the computer betting usually when the games are on. I don't want to be influenced by what I see as that kills most bettors who think they are smarter than the lines (I know I am not). I am betting 40+ games a nite. Hard to watch that many. Realized a long time ago watching games all day is angonizing and I don't want or need it. I have no interest in watching the Orlando Magic playing the Indiana Pacers on a tuesday nite but it doesn't mean I don't know what is going on. I could go on and on but more of a bettor than a watch it on TV fan, as I have realized that works best for me in what I am doing but doesn't mean I don't read EVERY DAY and keep up with sports at a very high level.
Don't blame me. Blame the Oakland A's, Bill James, Theo Epstien, Baseball Prospectus, etc....
I simply do not agree with the half run saved theroy. I do agree with offensive stats are cut and dry and can be measured but until someone can prove his glove was responsibile for a half a run a game on average than no way. You must be watching different baseball games than me as I say the difference between an average shortstop and Ozzie Smith was not 80 runs a season defensively and if it even was a guy who averaged 2 HR's a game and hit .262 in his career is huge liablility.
I have cut and dry numbers backing my statements, you have Whitey Heraog who coached the man, what else is he going to say. All I am loking for is something with a hard evidence to it. Which we will never see as it can't be measured. I am a stats guy not a opionion guy you are right and his offensive stats were terribile for an everday player. Sorry I feel as strongly about this as you do.
The game has changed and I find my opinions changing with them. Being stuck in the "Ozzie Smith was great becasue when I was a kid he did backflips" doesn''t cut it for me. I have promised myself I wouldn't turn into one of those "the game was better back in the day" guys. That to me is a sign of stubborness and old age. No hard feelings JM but no reason to dig on my sports knowledge, sort of a low blow. I just dont think he his game is tailored to being a top level shortstop in todays game. I am willing to bet there a handful of all glove no hit baseball players out there drifting around in the minor leagues right now that will never see the locker room of a major league team because of how the game changed.
Have to get back to betting and WATCHING the Tigers game.:toast:
Why can't you guys just agree to disagree?
Iceman isn't going to change his mind. Journeyman isn't going to change his mind. That's become abundantly clear to all of us.
This discussion has turned into a pissing contest over who's a more knowledgeable baseball fan. But I'll fill you guys in on something: knowing a bunch of stats doesn't make one knowledgeable on the game of baseball. I know a few people who are walking sports encyclopedia's, but don't have a clue when it comes to the in's and out's of the sports they've memorized so much about.
I'm not saying that applies to you guys; I'm sure it doesn't. But regardless, this has just become a war of who knows more. Neither of you are going to change your minds, so just agree to disagree and move on to another topic...because when discussions turn into this shit, turn into getting defensive and claiming that you are 100% right, you've essentially ended the discussion part of it.
Oh, and when you ask for one's opinion, that's what you get. OPINION. It isn't a fact that Ozzie Smith could start for most teams in baseball right now. It also isn't a fact that he couldn't. And you'll never know the answer. So there's no point in getting heated over it.
There's a reason why two people can view the exact same thing, yet interpret it completely differently.
Iceman isn't going to change his mind. Journeyman isn't going to change his mind. That's become abundantly clear to all of us.
This discussion has turned into a pissing contest over who's a more knowledgeable baseball fan. But I'll fill you guys in on something: knowing a bunch of stats doesn't make one knowledgeable on the game of baseball. I know a few people who are walking sports encyclopedia's, but don't have a clue when it comes to the in's and out's of the sports they've memorized so much about.
I'm not saying that applies to you guys; I'm sure it doesn't. But regardless, this has just become a war of who knows more. Neither of you are going to change your minds, so just agree to disagree and move on to another topic...because when discussions turn into this shit, turn into getting defensive and claiming that you are 100% right, you've essentially ended the discussion part of it.
Oh, and when you ask for one's opinion, that's what you get. OPINION. It isn't a fact that Ozzie Smith could start for most teams in baseball right now. It also isn't a fact that he couldn't. And you'll never know the answer. So there's no point in getting heated over it.
There's a reason why two people can view the exact same thing, yet interpret it completely differently.
I totally agree. I honestly am not 1% mad or upset. Not trying to sitr up the pot but I new I would be in the minority on this and willing to face the heat. Not trying to rip anyone but now I find myself defending my sports knowledge (which wasn't intended to be the issue at hand) as some are taken back because I claim to be actually betting and not watching most of the games so I must not know what I am talking about now.
Very good points Skinraj. Thanks for intervening. Mkes it easier on everyone involved. I do not hate Ozzie Smtih but all I am and was saying was how much that posistion changed since he left the game. I guess there are alot of players I could have used to try and prove my point. Your right, eventually stats come out of the equation and than it is all opinions and nothing is going to get proven as most are going to stand by theres but I highly doubt this is the silliest thread ever. Everyone involved made valid points. I respect that.
Jman, No hard feelings!!! I hope you don't hold any grudges. A good old fashion argument/disagreement with no name calling or swearing. Nothing is better. I really do have to get back to what I was doing. This doesn't really mean that much to me (and I am sure it doesn't mean much to the others involved also). I agree to disagree!!!
First of all WHO is mad?
You guys come into this debate and assume anyone is mad? All I am saying is in my opinion my opinion is correct and no one is going to change my mind...I love debating baseball, this is rather enjoyable to me....I don't hold grudges and there is no grudge here.
He starts for every team , and like I said the teams who have a power hitting SS they move him to 3rd....Ozzie Smith is probably the best glove man in the history of mankind.
You guys come into this debate and assume anyone is mad? All I am saying is in my opinion my opinion is correct and no one is going to change my mind...I love debating baseball, this is rather enjoyable to me....I don't hold grudges and there is no grudge here.
He starts for every team , and like I said the teams who have a power hitting SS they move him to 3rd....Ozzie Smith is probably the best glove man in the history of mankind.
