Actually my numbers are off in terms of runs he "saves" He saves about 40-50 a year over average shortstops. And the number grows to about 80-100 in difference of runs over the shitty shortstops like Guillen etc but those aren't all saved runs by ozzie, but extra runs let in due to poor shortstop play by the other guy as well.
I will debate that till my death but since there isn't any hard core evidence I stick by my point. Sorry but I think that is ridicously high. 80 runs a season, a half a run a game?
Baseball Prospectus does a stat called Value over repalcement player and guy like ARod's bat is on average 50 runs a year better than a replacement player (and Carlos Guillen is not even close to what is defined as a replacement player). If one of the biggest offensive threats in the history of the game is 50 runs over the value of a REPLACEMENT player I find it hard to believe that Ozzie Smith's glove is worth 80 runs.
Not arguing this again as all my points are in the thread and without a doubt I would rather have Carlos Guillen and his .500+slg and his so called slow defensive range over Ozzie Smith everyday of the week.
Like I have said since the beginning I guees it is what you prefer. Arguing this any further is worhtless based on the fact the Smith followers go by opinions only (not coming down on them as this as all they have to go by). The stats I am providing are facts and there is no way to measure a defensive value of a player with a number but I find it hard to believe that he is worth more than ARods bat (30 more runs no less LOL). The game has changed and it has been my point since the beginnning of the thread. Impossibile to try and argue this. To each his own but I prefer a bat and an average defensive SS over Ozzie Smith. You can have the wizard.
I am with you here Ice. I say Ozzie saved maybe 25 runs a season over the average shortstop. An average short stop is not some guy that was picked up from a farm team. Posters here are definitely overestimating Ozzie's glove, but that has been happening since 1987.
There are statisticians who have come up with a +- system like they use in hockey. Ozzie is right at about 0 and maybe slightly negative using this system.
There are statisticians who have come up with a +- system like they use in hockey. Ozzie is right at about 0 and maybe slightly negative using this system.
Ozzie was the highest paid player in baseball at one point in time , in the later 1980's ... short term memory here is all I can chalk this thread up to.
Take a good look at some of these God-awful NL lineups right now, Ozzie Smith was a defensive icon and a decent offensive player 'in his prime', he is 20th alltime in stolen bases, you just don't steal 580 bases by accident, finish in the top 20 in MVP voting at age 36 and 37 and be a one way defensive player only.
Take a good look at some of these God-awful NL lineups right now, Ozzie Smith was a defensive icon and a decent offensive player 'in his prime', he is 20th alltime in stolen bases, you just don't steal 580 bases by accident, finish in the top 20 in MVP voting at age 36 and 37 and be a one way defensive player only.
ope:at his prime Ozzie Smith would be making as much as Jeter , maybe even more...he already was the highest paid player, Jeter was never highest paid, that is an interesting fact to think about...
I think Ozzie would be making about 15 million a season if he was playing today , maybe a little more....
If I had to pick I'd take Jeter , just making the point he was the games highest paid player.
I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE SO IN LOVE WITH OFFENSE. When are people going to learn pitching and defense win TITLES not offense. As I said ask the Cleveland Indians of the 1990's. Go look at there offense.
You said you would take Juan Uribe over him. That is absolutely comical. Uribe hit .235 last year. But since he hit 21 HR's you would take him. SO was Ricky Henderson no good? Because he only hit about 12 HR's a year and only had a career average of .279? Was he know good because he didn't drive in 100 runs. It was not Ozzie's job to drive runs in and hit HR's. Is Ichiro no good? Because he doesn't drive in a lot of runs and hit HR's? His slugging % is not that high but he may be one of the greatest hitters this game has ever seen. They scored more runs then Ozzie. Ozzie may have not scored enough runs but his JOB WAS NOT TO DRIVE IN RUNS! That is what you are missing. His job was to score runs and save runs. Not to drive them in. YOu are basically arguing that only power hitters should be in the hall of fame. You are all about HR's and slugging %....
Here is my example of why your argument doesn't hold water. The Chicago White Sox traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. Carlos Less is now hitting 40 HR's and Driving in 100 RBI's a year. But the White Sox won a world series more so because Scott Podsednik was stealing bases and frustrating pitchers. In the game now it is 10 times harder to find a quality lead off hitter then it is to find a guy who can hit 30+ HR's and drive in 100 Runs. ANd I would bet you 90% of managers in the game would ask for a good lead off hitter well ahead of a power hitter. There is a reason there are plenty of them.
You are over valuing the HR and RBI's and undervaluing defense and the ability to steal bases.
And the Chicago White Sox and St. Louis Cardinals do not win the World Series without the leadoff ability of Eckstein and Podsednik.
Also Podsednik added speed to the outfield. Jon Garland and Mark Buerhle were quoted in the season as saying, no balls dropped in the outfield, are ERA's were probably one run lower because there were no balls that could fall in the outfield.
Me too. I wish others would let it go. We have all said our piece. I guess there is no right or wrong answer here. Maybe it is the 1st ballot HOf thing that bothers me more. I guess I am little more nostalgic in that way. Next thing you know Keith Hernandez should get in as he had over 10 gold gloves I think.
It is would you prefer. I think opening this up has cost me a little bit of money the past few days as it has taken my attention away from making good bets. I am actually down about 3 units since the start of this thread (LOL) but may get even with a great Washington Nationals comeback happening. Next time I say post something that is against the normal viewpoints I may think twice. Time to get back to gambling.:modemman:
Good bye thread!!!!!!!!!!!!
