Why you should be a socialist

[JDeuce]

It's hard to believe that people still exist today who think socialism is a viable option.

One question torpedoes the entire argument though: what happens to the people who don't want to work? The goal of a socialist country is to make sure no one gets left out...everyone has some standard of living. So with that in mind...if I don't feel like working, what's the big deal? Where are the consequences? There can't be any, because "society" is supposed to take care of me.

Eventually, more and more people decide against working until an economic collapse occurs. Like Joe said, why would anyone bother to produce anything if there is no reward for doing so? No one will produce the food, no one will drive the delivery trucks, etc.

My family escaped an Eastern European socialist nation...I'm a first-generation American. And both my parents and grandparents could tell you plenty of first-hand stories about the horrors they experienced. Funny, though...maybe they should have tried sneaking back into their homeland since they must not have realized how good they had it at the time.

 

[comrade666]

It's hard to believe that people still exist today who think socialism is a viable option.

One question torpedoes the entire argument though: what happens to the people who don't want to work? The goal of a socialist country is to make sure no one gets left out...everyone has some standard of living. So with that in mind...if I don't feel like working, what's the big deal? Where are the consequences? There can't be any, because "society" is supposed to take care of me.

Eventually, more and more people decide against working until an economic collapse occurs. Like Joe said, why would anyone bother to produce anything if there is no reward for doing so? No one will produce the food, no one will drive the delivery trucks, etc.

My family escaped an Eastern European socialist nation...I'm a first-generation American. And both my parents and grandparents could tell you plenty of first-hand stories about the horrors they experienced. Funny, though...maybe they should have tried sneaking back into their homeland since they must not have realized how good they had it at the time.

That doesn't torpedo the whole issue. Society will continue to function. Ancient communitarian societies existed without issue of "motivation".
not to mention you're talking about the possible end game for socialism.

 

[GasMan]

Oh yeah great points. Nice worthwhile post.

I just matched your quality post count in one try.

 

[comrade666]

The Bolivarian missions are a series of social justice, social welfare, anti-poverty, educational, and military recruiting programs implemented under the administration of the previous Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez. They draw their name from the historical South American hero, Simón Bolívar.


The "Bolivarian missions" have entailed the launching of government anti-poverty initiatives,[1] the construction of thousands of free medical clinics for the poor,[2] the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate,[3] and the enactment of food[4] and housing subsidies.[5] The infant mortality rate fell by 18.2% between 1998 and 2006.[6][7] The government earmarked 44.6% of the 2007 budget for social investment, with 1999-2007 averaging 12.8% of GDP.[8] The Gini coefficient has fallen from 48.7 in 1998 to 42 in 2007 (claims that the Gini has risen were based on data from two different (non-comparable) statistical series).[9] During the Chávez Presidency, poverty and extreme poverty have gone down strongly: poverty fell from 59.4% in 1999 to 30.2% in 2006 and extreme poverty went down from 21.7% to 9.9% in the same period. Even critics like Instituto Real Elcano from Spain acknowledge these achievements although they cast doubts on the sustainability of these policies.[10]


The Missions have overseen widespread experimentation in what Chávez supporters term citizen- and worker-managed governance,[11][12] as well as the granting of thousands of free land titles, reportedly to formerly landless poor and indigenous communities.[13] Several allegedly unused estates and factories have been expropriated to provide this land.


In March 2006 the Communal Council Law was approved, whereby communities that decide to organize themselves into a council can be given official state recognition and access to federal funds and loans for community projects. This skips the local and state governments that are perceived as corrupt.[14]


The Chavez government also passed a number of laws protecting the rights of the indigenous people of Venezuela, including laws that recognize indigenous rights over the land they traditionally occupied, their rights to prior consultation concerning the exploitation of their natural resources, their rights to manage their own education system based on intercultural and bilingual principles, and a law providing that three native representatives shall sit in the National Assembly, as well as representation in municipal and regional assemblies in regions with a native population.[15]

 

[JDeuce]

That doesn't torpedo the whole issue. Society will continue to function. Ancient communitarian societies existed without issue of "motivation".
not to mention you're talking about the possible end game for socialism.

That doesn't answer my question.

Why should people work if there is no consequence of not working?

 

[comrade666]

That doesn't answer my question.

Why should people work if there is no consequence of not working?

I did answer your question. They will work for the betterment of society and to help their fellow people. They will work because they are doing their lives passion. We are discussing what would be the end stage of socialism. So the entire idea of " working" would be completely different. It would have no relationship to what working is like today in a largely capitalist system.

 

[comrade666]

That doesn't answer my question.

Why should people work if there is no consequence of not working?

Socialism rewards hard work, while under capitalism the richest people are the ones who do no work at all. In a socialist society, the working class controls the means of production and the fruits of its own labor and therefore has a real stake in the realization of its full capacity to produce. The main incentive to work under capitalism is the threat of being fired and starvation.


Under socialism, a person is paid according to the work they do. Under capitalism, the least productive members of society—the bankers and CEOs—grow obscenely wealthy while working class people live paycheck to paycheck.

 

[JDeuce]

I did answer your question. They will work for the betterment of society and to help their fellow people. They will work because they are doing their lives passion. We are discussing what would be the end stage of socialism. So the entire idea of " working" would be completely different. It would have no relationship to what working is like today in a largely capitalist system.

You're making a lot of assumptions, and every one is inaccurate.

But let's just suppose we suddenly adopt your socialist model tomorrow, and I decide I don't want to work. What happens then? You'll still take care of me, right? Aren't you obligated to do so?

And yeah, I'm sure the large number of Cubans who work in sugar cane fields are doing their lives passion for work. They really had a choice in the matter. What exactly stops someone from doing their live's passion in a capitalist structure? Your argument is 100% backwards.

 

[rolltide]

Haha come on man. You do know how the world works right?

apparently only one of us does

 

[rolltide]

You're making a lot of assumptions, and every one is inaccurate.

But let's just suppose we suddenly adopt your socialist model tomorrow, and I decide I don't want to work. What happens then? You'll still take care of me, right? Aren't you obligated to do so?

And yeah, I'm sure the large number of Cubans who work in sugar cane fields are doing their lives passion for work. They really had a choice in the matter. What exactly stops someone from doing their live's passion in a capitalist structure? Your argument is 100% backwards.

let me play satan comrade on this one....

cuba aint good portray for socialistism as it only been 50 years. need like many many more then will show how great it be

i human being n desrve to be taken full care off.

chicago rules.

i'm out

 

[The Guesser]

I was actually enjoying this thread til Ace butted in with his usual insults.

EXACTLY. Notice how civil it was until that lying idiot got involved. Keep on bringing it Comrade. Don't let Lying Idiot trolls like that get to you. While I disagree with your points, you bring a calm, well reasoned style, mucho needed down here.

 

[mplastered]

EXACTLY. Notice how civil it was until that lying idiot got involved. Keep on bringing it Comrade. Don't let Lying Idiot trolls like that get to you. While I disagree with your points, you bring a calm, well reasoned style, mucho needed down here.

No..... He does not.

 

[The Guesser]

No..... He does not.

Yeah, he does. I have not seen him start insulting anyone yet, until he is insulted. He brings an opposing view, he is a socialist. He brings a different view on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I enjoy differing views, when they are brought in a respectful manner, and he does until provoked.

 

[ScottL]

Guesser, come on! The guy is totally disrupting threads. In the I/P threads his questions are juvenile or to incite. He adds nothing. You are 100% off here.

Even in this thread here 3/4 of his posts are spam and the rest infantile nonsense.

 

[mplastered]

Yeah, he does. I have not seen him start insulting anyone yet, until he is insulted. He brings an opposing view, he is a socialist. He brings a different view on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I enjoy differing views, when they are brought in a respectful manner, and he does until provoked.

Ok, I've been wrong before. My gut says I'm not here tho.

 

[The Guesser]

Guesser, come on! The guy is totally disrupting threads. In the I/P threads his questions are juvenile or to incite. He adds nothing. You are 100% off here.

Even in this thread here 3/4 of his posts are spam and the rest infantile nonsense.

We're gonna disagree on this one. He's not disrupting threads, nor inciting anything. He's asking questions and giving his point of view. That's what this place is SUPPOSED to be about. Not an infantile insult fest that too many(including me when incited) make it. I have yet to see him insult any member here, prior to his being insulted. Maybe I'm wrong? I've disagreed with him strongly in the Israel- Palestinian thread. I've yet to be called a name by him, or insulted or Allinskied or whatever else the nutcases around here do. He's a newcomer down here, AFAIK, and he came in peacefully.

 

[akphidelt]

Economics is a balancing act. You should never be sold to one ideology. You should make decisions that create a stable and productive economy. And that can be a mixture of capitalism and socialism. When you have a disparity of wealth like we have now, you should be trying to close the gap through policies that help the bottom of society. Otherwise capitalists will bleed the country dry until they have their slave laborers who have to work just to get a loaf of bread.

 

[comrade666]

We're gonna disagree on this one. He's not disrupting threads, nor inciting anything. He's asking questions and giving his point of view. That's what this place is SUPPOSED to be about. Not an infantile insult fest that too many(including me when incited) make it. I have yet to see him insult any member here, prior to his being insulted. Maybe I'm wrong? I've disagreed with him strongly in the Israel- Palestinian thread. I've yet to be called a name by him, or insulted or Allinskied or whatever else the nutcases around here do. He's a newcomer down here, AFAIK, and he came in peacefully.

that's all I'm trying to do. The people who actually respond with debate i will respectfully discuss issues with. It's just funny that some people here think you can't have your own opinion and just make personal attacks non stop.

 

[comrade666]

Well you're making the exact same assumptions about people. That without money they have no incentive to do anything

 

[comrade666]

Economics is a balancing act. You should never be sold to one ideology. You should make decisions that create a stable and productive economy. And that can be a mixture of capitalism and socialism. When you have a disparity of wealth like we have now, you should be trying to close the gap through policies that help the bottom of society. Otherwise capitalists will bleed the country dry until they have their slave laborers who have to work just to get a loaf of bread.

I agree with you. I'm not even completely sure about full socialism yet because it's never been seen yet. But mixed economies are the most successful in the world today.