Who are you talking about ozzie smith?
Oh nevermind, Smith had a .262 career batting average. My bad.
He also has 200 more SBs, otherwise, their offensive numbers are virtually identical. Ozzie's defensive statistics (PO, A, Range Factor) dwarf Vizquel's. If your argument for a limited offensive player to get in is that he was great defensively, he better be ridiculously great defensively. Smith was and the stats back this up. His RF and A were absurdly high. Vizquel's defensive numbers are pedestrian compared to Smith's and not even as good as his generational competitors, Larkin, Rodriguez and Tejada.
Smith averaged 1 out per game more than the average SS over his career and basically averaged 65 more assists per season for a 12 season stretch as compared with Vizquel's BEST season (that is, 540 average for Ozzie and 475 best for Omar).
Fielding % isn't the be all and end all of fielding statistics. Guys who cover more ground make more errors, more ground = more chances = harder chances = higher number of errors
Trammell - GP @ SS - 2139, PO - 3391, Asst - 6172, DP - 1307
Smith - 2511, 4249, 8375, 1590
or, average per 162 games
Trammell - 256, 467 and 99
Smith - 275, 540 and 102
Meaning, Smith was responsible for 96 more outs per season than Trammell. Trammell was a well above average defensive SS, so to say he wasn't responsible for 80 more outs than an average SS is without merit.
To wit:
Smith had 500 or more assts 8 times in his career, more than any other player. Trammell never had more than 459, Omar Vizquel had more than 450 once (475). Smith holds the single season record of 621, or, ~7% higher than Cal Ripken's AL record of 583. Jeter broke 400 3 times (all between 440-46), Dave Concepcion broke 500 twice. Smith AVERAGED 540 assists per year from 78 through 89.
Smith lead the league in Range Factor [(A+PO)/Innings] 9 times, more than any other SS and had a range factor almost a full out better than the league average (5.03 v. 4.1, or 150 outs per year). Concepcion was .19 better than league average, Ripken .46, Vizquel .28, Jeter is -.05, Trammell .36
When it is less than Alan Trammell's, Miguel Tejada's, Alex Gonzalez', Dave Concepcion, Rafael Furcal and virtually the same as Edgar Renteria's. Come on, if your argument is that he is deserving b.c he is "great" defensively, he had better be ridiculously great to make up for his offensive limitations and the statistics do not bear that out. Trammell was better offensively and he isn't even close. Do you really think Miguel Tejada is a great defensive SS?
Who's next, JT Snow? Keith Hernandez? Graig Nettles? Paul Blair? Devon White?
In your previous message you said it was higher than Concepcion's, and he was very good. No, Trammell wasn't a great defensive shortstop, and Tejada isn't, but whether or not you think he belongs in the HOF, you cannot argue that Vizquel wasn't for many years. So your argument speaks more to the validity of this statistic as a true measure of how good a fielder a player is than how good Vizquel was.
No, none of the players you mention are Hall of Famers, but none were shortstops. (Blair may well have made it, despite a below average arm, if he had not suffered a serious beaning early in his career.)
No, none of the players you mention are Hall of Famers, but none were shortstops. (Blair may well have made it, despite a below average arm, if he had not suffered a serious beaning early in his career.)
Concepcion is higher on an absolute basis, not compared to league average. Actually, I take that back, it is higher on a league average basis as well, I looked at Concepcion's total RF for all positions (4.51 to 4.32) when I calculated it, not his SS only which is 4.71 compared to 4.3. Concepcion's offensive stats (other than R (Vizquel 400 more) and RBI (100 more for DC)) are, like Smith's, virtually the same as Vizquel.
Then how do you propose determining a great defensive player? A reputational award like Gold Gloves? Highlight reel plays? Reputation? Why wouldn't the number of chances a guy makes on both an absolute basis and relative basis determine how good a guy is defensively? This takes into account defensive placement (something Ripken was fantastic with), range, and, ultimately, ability to make plays with balls they get to.
Being a SS doesn't have anything to do with mentioning those guys. Hernandez is regarded as the best defensive 1B of all time (I don't know if I agree w/ this and I don't feel like looking up any stats) and had a good offensive career, was an MVP , won 11 GGs and won 2 WS yet again, he, like Trammell and Concepcion don't sniff the HOF.
Then how do you propose determining a great defensive player? A reputational award like Gold Gloves? Highlight reel plays? Reputation? Why wouldn't the number of chances a guy makes on both an absolute basis and relative basis determine how good a guy is defensively? This takes into account defensive placement (something Ripken was fantastic with), range, and, ultimately, ability to make plays with balls they get to.
Being a SS doesn't have anything to do with mentioning those guys. Hernandez is regarded as the best defensive 1B of all time (I don't know if I agree w/ this and I don't feel like looking up any stats) and had a good offensive career, was an MVP , won 11 GGs and won 2 WS yet again, he, like Trammell and Concepcion don't sniff the HOF.
Other than pitcher, shortstop is unquestionably the most difficult and important defensive position in baseball.
I can't refute your stats, and I know it's anecdotal, but I know what I saw, and Vizquel was a GREAT shortstop. No argument on Ripken, by the way. He was also a GREAT shortstop (and a key reason that Vizquel wasn't on more All Star teams.)
I can't refute your stats, and I know it's anecdotal, but I know what I saw, and Vizquel was a GREAT shortstop. No argument on Ripken, by the way. He was also a GREAT shortstop (and a key reason that Vizquel wasn't on more All Star teams.)
IMO these guys are not locks
JEFF BAGWELL
CRAIG BIGGIO
GARRY SHEFFIELD
BERNIE WILLIAMS
CHIPPER JONES
JEFF KENT
OMAR VIZQUEL
TREVOR HOFFMAN
PUDGE RODRIQUZ
MIKE PIAZZA
JIM THOME
Good topic ... let's bump it in 15 years
You have to be kidding with Hoffman right? He may be the best closer in the history of baseball. He is one of the top 5 active HOFers in all of baseball right now.
Pudge should be a lock, the biggest knock on him was his hitting when he came up and has turned himself into a damn good hitter, .300 career, 12 out of 13 seasons was .297 or higher (10 of which were .300+), 2400 hits, 284 HRs and still has time left. 12 GGs and had an absolute hose for an arm. The roids may become an issue for him, but as far as catchers with combo of offense and defense, Bench may be the only guy in his class (I qualify that by saying I can't comment on Berra or Dickey).
Hoffman's biggest issue will be the lack of respect closers get from HOF voters. I can't imagine he would never get in, but it may take him a while. He would get my vote quickly.
Frank Thomas will be an interesting one. He has basically been a DH for his entire career. Statistically he is better than Edgar Martinez and he was a beast during the early-mid 90s, but Martinez is completely disregarded b/c he was a DH. I always thought he was over rated and preferred Juan Gonzalez, Belle and Griffey to him when he was mashing. Wonder what impact the DH will have on Thomas' chances.
Hoffman's biggest issue will be the lack of respect closers get from HOF voters. I can't imagine he would never get in, but it may take him a while. He would get my vote quickly.
Frank Thomas will be an interesting one. He has basically been a DH for his entire career. Statistically he is better than Edgar Martinez and he was a beast during the early-mid 90s, but Martinez is completely disregarded b/c he was a DH. I always thought he was over rated and preferred Juan Gonzalez, Belle and Griffey to him when he was mashing. Wonder what impact the DH will have on Thomas' chances.
Chop, I'm not kidding at all. Fair or unfair, how many career closers are in the hall now? Let me think .... oh yeah .. Sutter. Did I miss anyone?
And don't forget .. guys like Eck and Hoyt Willhelm were good starters long before they went to the pen.
A guy by the name of Rollie Fingers.
We are just now getting to the age of eligabilty for career closers. There was really no such thing as a real closer until the 70's.
Eck did not get into the hall because of his starting. That had nothing to do with him getting in there.
There will be plenty of closers in the hall 15 years from now.
I have to agree with Lander on this one , On the outside ... It appears as Hoffman may seem as a "Lock" to the laimen fan. However ,looking closer inside .. It would be hard to see Hoffman make it to HOF let alone even make a case for him.
These days nearly every team has a solid closer , a guy capable of 30-40 + saves per year. 25 Years ago , the Major League record for saves in a season was 38 , for a career it was 301. Now the record is 57 (Thigpen )and Hoffmans 503. Hoffman is the current career leader for a statistic which has dramatictly progessed over the last 25 years ( and has Skyrocketed over the last 15 )
Before 1992 (38) saves in a season has only happened 4 times overall by four separate players. Since then it has been accomplished over 125 times. Hoffman hasnt even pitched 1000 innings in his career (917), he has never started a single game ( and probably never pitched more than 3 innings at once - not sure on that. ) If the Hall of Fame is going to chose a "Closer" to represent the save generation .. I believe it will be Mariano Rivera opposed to Hoffman, soley because of his performances in the post season and mainly the World Series - given their regular season numbers are similar.
come on man, that comment is not even close to true.
30 saves does not a great closer make.
I cant name dozens of closers thats saved 30 games that I would not give 2 cents for.
There are only about 6 or 7 great closers in all of baseball right now. About another 5 good to decent closers. Everyone else is nothing more than a crap shoot.
