I count 27 locks for the baseball HOF(ACTIVE PLAYERS) and a ton on the verge.

[RupertPupkin]

I once read an article by a voter where he discussed the longevity issue and a guy's "dominance" during his career. He basically said that he looked at the best 10-12 year period of a guy's career and voted more based on that than the end result, giving more credit if a guy's best period was say 16 years. His theory being that to be "great" and deserving of the HOF you had to be elite for an extended period of time/dominant/among the best in the game for an extended period and that guys (like Biggio, perhaps like WInfield, Murray, Palmeiro, Yaz) who accumulated impressive career numbers were never elite players. It doesn't discredit a guy for sticking around, but it does limit worth given to the years when the guy isn't elite or great or even very good.

Frankly, I tend to agree with this approach. To me, Alomar's 14 year run is far more impressive than the entirety of Biggio's career. I kind of feel the same way about Albert Belle compared with some guys. He, unfortunately, was a bad citizen and only had 10 seasons in his career.

Yo , first off , Don't think I'm picking on your posts , I just enjoy our banter because you bring up a lot of good points that I feel the need to discuss with you ... #1 I agree with Albert Belle , his 10 year stats are some of the best the game has seen ... However due to his attitude and off field problems , he will never see Cooperstown. But Alomar far more impressive than Biggio ?? That seems a big far fetched to me. Alomar played 17 seasons , Biggio in his 20th now .. If you look over their best years , Biggio stats are as impressive than Robbies ... Granted Alomar is a career .300 hitter and Biggio is .283 ... Alomar has more stolen bases also 473-413 ... But if you convert their career stats to the 162 average stat per season ... Biggio holds his own ..

162 game averages per year
Hits
Biggio 175
Alomar 185

Runs
Biggio 106
Alomar 103

Doubles/Triples/Homers
Biggio 38-3-17
Alomar 34-5-14

Rbis
Biggio 67
Alomar 77

And if Alomar had reached 3000 career hits , He'd would have secured his spot aswell ...

 

[fhmesq44]

I don't, and I enjoy your's as well. Like I said, I love the HOF talk.

Biggio has ended his career much better than Alomar did, no doubt, and b/c of that his career numbers are better. These two guys are a PERFECT example of the best 10-12 theory noted above. Alomar, for probably 9-12 years, was the best second baseman in the game and one of the top 5-10 best players in baseball. Biggio was never even the 2nd best second baseman in baseball. First it was Sandberg, then Knoblauch and Baerga, then Kent and always Alomar (until 2002).

Pick the 10-12 best year's of Biggio's career and Alomar's run from 89-01 will dwarf them, just destroy them in almost every statistical category. There is an entire thread on Biggio so I don't want to go entirely into the Alomar/Biggio comparison, but the crux of my argument was that at no point during Alomar's career could another 2B replicate his production, either offensively or defensively yet I could have serially replicated Biggio's by taking any number of guys over the course of his career. That is, to me, what makes a guy "great" and a HOFer, inability or virtual inability to replicate their production. With Biggio, there were always guys that could have given me the same thing. None for as long, but I could have serially inserted guys like Knoblauch, Marcus Giles, Soriano, Ray Durham, Baerga, Robinson Cano and ended up with the same production.

All of that said, I know Biggio is getting in.

 

[fhmesq44]

One point of clarification, or, if their production can be replicated it would be by other HOFers.

 

[RupertPupkin]

When I get home , I will run Biggios best 10-12 years and compare them head up with Alomar , I dont have time now ... Im leaving the office in 5 mins ... But expect that comparision later on ... And don't expect to see any "Dwarfing" .....

 

[fhmesq44]

When I get home , I will run Biggios best 10-12 years and compare them head up with Alomar , I dont have time now ... Im leaving the office in 5 mins ... But expect that comparision later on ... And don't expect to see any "Dwarfing" .....

I was going to do the same, and will, won't be until tonight though. Try to find 13 for Biggio, Alomar has 89-01. Theoretically it is supposed to be consecutive seasons, but just find Biggio's 13 best.

 

[RupertPupkin]

I did Biggio from 1992 -2004 , compared with Alomar from 1989 - 2001

Heres the breakdown
At bats
Alomar 7251
Biggio 7554

Runs
Alomar 1257
Biggio 1393

Hits
Alomar 2244
Biggio 2185

2bs
Alomar 422
Biggio 490

Hrs
Alomar 181
Biggio 210

Rbis
Alomar 977
Biggio 841

Stolen Bases
Alomar 422
Biggio 325

Batting average
Alomar .309
Biggio .289


I see overall , Alomar has had the better string , however it is not the landslide like you predicted , and actually very close considering Biggio has more runs , Home runs , and doubles ... I didnt figure the SLG % or OB % ... but I have a feeling they would be pretty close aswell.

 

[fhmesq44]

closer than I expected. also have 10-4 GGs and 5 top 6 MVPs to 2.

 

[fhmesq44]

I may also be under valuing Biggio. To me, watching them, Alomar was a special player and I never thought of Biggio as anything more than very good. Maybe I am wrong. Alomar was also special during the post season, something Biggio was not. As I said, maybe I am just under valuing him and am wrong, who knows.

 

[texansfan]

Craig Biggio absolutely without a doubt will get in. Just look at his carrer numbers. He is a lock, guarunteed.

 

[Timetopay]

Fitness you are correct. Give me Alomar at his best over Biggio at his best all day long.

 

[texansfan]

What you people fail to realize is that you say Alomar was a better second baseman that Biggio. You fail to realize that he started out as a catcher, played second and center field. Also, some people point out longevity as something bad. To obtain a lot of the numbers he has you have to have a long career. Like I said, he will be in the Hall of Fame guarunteed.

 

[CHOPTALK]

After careful consideration, I have decided to update this list.
Feel free to bump this thread up in 15 if you would like.

My prediction is everyone on this list will be in the HOF one day.

ABSOLUTE STONE COLD LOCKS:
These are player that if there career ended today they would get in. 100% of this list gets in.

ROGER CLEAMENS
JEFF BAGWELL
CRAIG BIGGIO
FRANK THOMAS
DEREK JETER
ALEX RODRIQUEZ
GARRY SHEFFIELD
RANDY JOHNSON
MARIANO RIVERA
JOHN SMOLTZ
CHIPPER JONES
ANDREW JONES
ALBERT PUJOS
GREG MADDOX
OMAR VIZQUEL
BARRY BONDS
MANNY RAMERIZ
KEN GRIEFFY
TOM GLAVINE
PEDRO MARTINEZ
TREVOR HOFFMAN
PUDGE RODRIQUZ
MIKE PIAZZA
RICKY HENDERSON (STILL ACTIVE)
JIM THOME
Sammy Sosa


There are others playing right now that I think are going to get in one day.

People like Johan Santanna, Jeff Francour, etc.....

But its way too early for those guys.

 

[5teamparlay]

THE LIST SEEMS EXACT- I'd add DELGADO he will get 600 HR's if he slumps his way out.

BAGWELL is still a ? mark in my book big time,

and Sosa has played his way back In amazingly (i like it!!!)

 

[CHOPTALK]

THE LIST SEEMS EXACT- I'd add DELGADO he will get 600 HR's if he slumps his way out.

BAGWELL is still a ? mark in my book big time,

and Sosa has played his way back In amazingly (i like it!!!)

I left out a few new names. Bernie Williams, Jeff Kent, and one other one I think.

 

[HinesWard86]

Vizquel is still far from a lock

 

[fhmesq44]

I can't believe you really think all of those guys are locks, as in guaranteed to get in. Pujols isn't even eligible yet. More than 1/3 of those guys are not locks. They may get in, but no way are they locks.

 

[5teamparlay]

I'd put thome out looking with bagwell and OMAR for now, I think 550 HR may be a new post 1990 bench mark.

ICHIRO (very interesting argument for) should be on the watch (not in) list as well with DELGADO and Albert IMO.

 

[fhmesq44]

I'd put thome out looking with bagwell and OMAR for now, I think 550 HR may be a new post 1990 bench mark.

ICHIRO (very interesting argument for) should be on the watch (not in) list as well with DELGADO and Albert IMO.

assuming Ichiro has 3 more years like all his others, no doubt. at the end of his 10th season (which makes him eligible), he will have 2200 hits, 1100 runs, 350 SBs, .330 average, 7-10 GGs, MVP, ROY, 120+ OPS

 

[stump]

i can't put in Bagwell, Bernie Williams, or Jeff Kent.

thome, hoffman, andruw jones, pudge,vizquel and piazza are all on the bubble for me.

the almost stone cold locks list has lots of doubtfuls to me.

 

[CHOPTALK]

assuming Ichiro has 3 more years like all his others, no doubt. at the end of his 10th season (which makes him eligible), he will have 2200 hits, 1100 runs, 350 SBs, .330 average, 7-10 GGs, MVP, ROY, 120+ OPS

Are you telling me that if a player plays 9 years and hits 50 homers each season he cant get into the HOF?

I never heard of the 10 year requirement.