How Religious are you?

[CapNCash]

To make the connection of these folks being reliable is one thing but to finish that sentence off with "and that the resurrection did in fact happen." is absurd. Just because someone was alive and around during the days of Christ doesnt mean that he resurrected after death. Of course your or anyone's answer will be "its in the scriptures" because that is the only link to this being true. So your trusting people who wrote 2000 years ago to give you the word of God, all be it third person? Have you ever played the telephone game in school? Wasnt the NT first written in Greek? I could go on and on, but not only is this story a leap of faith in logic scientifically, but its a leap of faith in trusting something written thousands of years ago by HUMANS.

Uh there are several dozen other links outside of the scriptures that confirm Jesus was executed (it is accepted as historical fact) and a very strong argument can be made that many people saw him after he was executed (people outside of the new testament attest to this).

To compare it to the telephone game is not a very strong argument. The New Testament was written 30-50 years after Jesus' death. Within the same generation of people. Certainly there were people around that could disprove it was false and the writings would not have made it very far. The scribes who translated and passed on copies of the new testament had the sole purpose of being completely accurate in every way. That is very different than children playing a game of telephone.

 

[CapNCash]

My understanding is that there are no other writings other than the bible and Josephus that even mentions Christ in that time. There is no mention of Josephus other than documents from the Catholic Church.
:wink:

This is entirely false. I can list at least 10-12 historical documents dated to the first century that mention christ in at least some detail.

 

[CapNCash]

The bible teaches that the bible (the only source for Christianity) is divinely inspired?????

Im not saying you dont or should believe. Im not saying your wrong and you have called yourself a reasonable man...with that said, isnt this a classic case of circular logic? Regardless of Christ is or isnt the son of GOD or his GOD himself. Thinking out side of yourself and your belief and faith. Is this not circular logic?

No copy and paste, no other persons words...just you own opinion.

You are discounting that the Bible is a collection of books written by different authors over the course 100's of years. To say that it is just one book is somewhat misleading.

 

[CapNCash]

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How many people saw him rise from the dead? How many people actually had seen him rise from a state of death into a spirit? None. All they seen were a tomb was empty… thus it was said… he must have risen from the dead: because there was a big rock in front of the place. This to me is the ultimate act of jumping the shark. I mean a human being not being in his grave, doesn't mean he should be automatically in heaven, after all isn't your spirit and electrical charge or a state of mind...since when is it physical? If you dig up mother Theresa, if she is still there, bones and all, does this mean she didnt ascend...or is God the only one that can do so? Self preservation non-sense if you ask me. Its just another wild ride on the circular logic roller coaster. I admire spirituality, but what i don’t admire is faith. Faith taking value over logic is self defeating and foolish. Shit in one hand, put faith in the other…what do you have?

Jesus showed himself to all the apostles after he died. He spoke to a crowd of 500. Paul who was a nonbeliever and took some responsibility for Jesus' death, saw jesus after he died and became a believer.

 

[CapNCash]

"What I do NOT embrace is many of the interpretations shared by zealot fundamentalist Christian sects. Notable would be the belief by many fundy Christians that God is a punishing God who will send select souls to a burning hell fire with eternal separation from the higher power life force."

I TOTALLY agree with barman here. This fire and brimstone teaching of modern day baptists, etc is used as more of a control mechanism and is not the way God is represented in the new testament. I believe god kind and just except for those that mock him or speak falsely about him.

 

[barman]

Uh there are several dozen other links outside of the scriptures that confirm Jesus was executed (it is accepted as historical fact)

No there's not, and no it isn't outside of strongly fundamentalist Christian religions.

The amount of written history we have from 2000 years ago is miniscule.

As to the various writers being "dedicated to accuracy" down through the ages, we know in fact that the translators of the most popular version of the Holy Bible were working under direct order from the English crown (King James). It's rather preposterous to suggest they may have been the only translators over a 2000 year period who were unduly influenced by political and social pressures.

 

[barman]

"What I do NOT embrace is many of the interpretations shared by zealot fundamentalist Christian sects. Notable would be the belief by many fundy Christians that God is a punishing God who will send select souls to a burning hell fire with eternal separation from the higher power life force."

I TOTALLY agree with barman here. This fire and brimstone teaching of modern day baptists, etc is used as more of a control mechanism and is not the way God is represented in the new testament. I believe god kind and just except for those that mock him or speak falsely about him.

Thanks for the agreeable comment. But I'll beg to differ and submit that God is kind and just with regard to all mankind. She is far too evolved to waste negative energy towards anyone who might mock Her or speak falsely about Her.

This is demonstrated in the gospel of Christ (among many other Master Teachers). We are forgiven for ALL erroneous thinking - aka "sins" - regardless of the error.

Thank goodness, because otherwise both you and I - and everyone else in the world - would likely have long ago been consigned to the FundyChristian mythological burning HellFire, eh?

 

[festeringZit]

No there's not, and no it isn't outside of strongly fundamentalist Christian religions.

The amount of written history we have from 2000 years ago is miniscule.

As to the various writers being "dedicated to accuracy" down through the ages, we know in fact that the translators of the most popular version of the Holy Bible were working under direct order from the English crown (King James). It's rather preposterous to suggest they may have been the only translators over a 2000 year period who were unduly influenced by political and social pressures.

Barman speaking from total ignorance here.

#1. There is * a lot * of evidence of the historical Jesus, which I will
post again to debunk Barman's lying.

#2. Barman's statement about the King James version of the Bible
show's his extreme ignorance. Not only is it not the most popular
version, the point is totally moot, because we have 5,686 greek
manuscripts in existence for the greek New Testament, which have been
shown to be 99.5% pure:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

Manuscript evidence for superior
New Testament reliability

The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writing. Because the copies are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy. This process has determined that the biblical documents are extremely consistent and accurate.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.¹ If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.
<table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="630"> <col style="width: 128pt;" width="170"> <col style="width: 80pt;" width="107"> <col style="width: 86pt;" width="115"> <col style="width: 78pt;" width="104"> <col style="width: 56pt;" width="74"> <col style="width: 57pt;" width="76"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" class="center" height="17">Author²</td> <td class="center">Date
Written</td> <td class="center">Earliest Copy</td> <td class="center">Approximate Time Span between original & copy</td> <td class="center"> Number of Copies
</td> <td class="center">Accuracy of Copies</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Lucretius</td> <td class="center">died 55 or 53 B.C.</td> <td class="center"> </td> <td class="center">1100 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">2</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Pliny</td> <td class="center">61-113 A.D.</td> <td class="center">850 A.D.</td> <td class="center">750 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">7</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Plato</td> <td class="center">427-347 B.C.</td> <td class="center">900 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1200 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">7</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Demosthenes</td> <td class="center">4th Cent. B.C.</td> <td class="center">1100 A.D.</td> <td class="center">800 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">8</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Herodotus</td> <td class="center">480-425 B.C.</td> <td class="center">900 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1300 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">8</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Suetonius</td> <td class="center">75-160 A.D.</td> <td class="center">950 A.D.</td> <td class="center">800 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">8</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Thucydides</td> <td class="center">460-400 B.C.</td> <td class="center">900 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1300 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">8</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Euripides</td> <td class="center">480-406 B.C.</td> <td class="center">1100 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1300 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">9</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Aristophanes</td> <td class="center">450-385 B.C.</td> <td class="center">900 A.D.</td> <td class="center" x:num="">1200</td> <td class="center" x:num="">10</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Caesar</td> <td class="center">100-44 B.C.</td> <td class="center">900 A.D.</td> <td class="center" x:num="">1000</td> <td class="center" x:num="">10</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Livy</td> <td class="center">59 BC-AD 17</td> <td class="center">----</td> <td class="center">???</td> <td class="center" x:num="">20</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Tacitus</td> <td class="center">circa 100 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1100 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1000 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">20</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Aristotle</td> <td class="center">384-322 B.C.</td> <td class="center">1100 A.D.</td> <td class="center" x:num="">1400</td> <td class="center" x:num="">49</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Sophocles</td> <td class="center">496-406 B.C.</td> <td class="center">1000 A.D.</td> <td class="center">1400 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">193</td> <td class="center">----</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> Homer (Iliad)</td> <td class="center">900 B.C.</td> <td class="center">400 B.C.</td> <td class="center">500 yrs</td> <td class="center" x:num="">643</td> <td class="center" x:num="00.95">95%</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> New
Testament</td> <td class="center">1st Cent. A.D. (50-100 A.D.</td> <td class="center">2nd Cent. A.D.
(c. 130 A.D. f.)</td> <td class="center">less than 100 years</td> <td class="center" x:num="">5600</td> <td class="center">99.5%</td> </tr> </tbody></table> As you can see, there are thousands more New Testament Greek manuscripts than any other ancient writing. The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. That is an amazing accuracy. In addition there are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages. The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000.
Almost all biblical scholars agree that the New Testament documents were all written before the close of the first century. If Jesus was crucified in 30 A.D., then that means that the entire New Testament was completed within 70 years. This is important because it means there were plenty of people around when the New Testament documents were penned who could have contested the writings. In other words, those who wrote the documents knew that if they were inaccurate, plenty of people would have pointed it out. But, we have absolutely no ancient documents contemporary with the first century that contest the New Testament texts.
Furthermore, another important aspect of this discussion is the fact that we have a fragment of the gospel of John that dates back to around 29 years from the original writing. This is extremely close to the original writing date. This is simply unheard of in any other ancient writing and it demonstrates that the Gospel of John is a first century document.
Below is a chart with some of the oldest extant New Testament manuscripts compared to when they were originally penned. Compare these time spans with the next closest which is Homer's Iliad where the closest copy from the original is 500 years later. Undoubtedly, that period of time allows for more textual corruption in its transmission. How much less so for the New Testament documents?
<table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="630"> <tbody><tr> <td class="center" width="113">Important
Manuscript
Papyri</td> <td class="center" width="241">Contents</td> <td align="middle" width="68"> Date
Original Written
</td> <td class="center" width="53">MSS
Date</td> <td class="center" width="53">Approx.
Time Span</td> <td class="center" width="182">Location</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="113">p⁵²
(John Rylands
Fragment)³</td> <td width="241">John 18:31-33,37-38</td> <td class="center" width="68">circa
96 A.D.</td> <td class="center" width="53">circa
125
A.D.</td> <td class="center" width="53">29 yrs</td> <td width="182">John Rylands Library, Manchester, England</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="113">P⁴⁶
(Chester Beatty Papyrus)</td> <td width="241">Rom. 5:17-6:3,5-14; 8:15-25, 27-35, 37-9:32; 10:1-11, 22, 24-33, 35-14:8,9-15:9, 11-33; 16:1-23, 25-27; Heb.; 1 & 2 Cor., Eph., Gal., Phil., Col.; 1 Thess. 1:1,9-10; 2:1-3; 5:5-9, 23-28</td> <td class="center" width="68">50's-70's</td> <td class="center" width="53">circa
200
A.D.</td> <td class="center" width="53">Approx.
150 yrs</td> <td width="182">Chester Beatty Museum, Dublin & Ann Arbor, Michigan, University of Michigan library</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="113">P⁶⁶
(Bodmer Papyrus)</td> <td width="241">John 1:1-6:11,35-14:26; fragment of 14:29-21:9</td> <td class="center" width="68"> 70's
</td> <td class="center" width="53">circa
200
A.D.</td> <td class="center" width="53">Approx.
130 yrs</td> <td width="182">Cologne, Geneva</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="113">P⁶⁷ </td> <td width="241">Matt. 3:9,15; 5:20-22, 25-28</td> <td class="center" width="68"> </td> <td class="center" width="53">circa
200
A.D.</td> <td class="center" width="53">Approx.
130 yrs</td> <td width="182">Barcelona, Fundacion San Lucas Evangelista, P. Barc.1</td> </tr> </tbody></table> If the critics of the Bible dismiss the New Testament as reliable information, then they must also dismiss the reliability of the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, Homer, and the other authors mentioned in the chart at the beginning of the paper. On the other hand, if the critics acknowledge the historicity and writings of those other individuals, then they must also retain the historicity and writings of the New Testament authors; after all, the evidence for the New Testament's reliability is far greater than the others. The Christian has substantially superior criteria for affirming the New Testament documents than he does for any other ancient writing. It is good evidence on which to base the trust in the reliability of the New Testament.
______________________
1. Norman Geisler & Peter Bocchino, Unshakeable Foundations, (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 2001) p. 256.
2. This chart was adapted from three sources: 1) Christian Apologetics, by Norman Geisler, 1976, p. 307; 2) the article "Archaeology and History attest to the Reliability of the Bible," by Richard M. Fales, Ph.D., in The Evidence Bible, Compiled by Ray Comfort, Bridge-Logos Publishers, Gainesville, FL, 2001, p. 163; and 3) A Ready Defense, by Josh Mcdowell, 1993, p. 45.
3."Deissmann was convinced that p52 was written well within the reign of Hadrian (A.D. 117-38) and perhaps even during the time of Trajan (A.D. 98-117)" (Footnote #2 found on pg. 39 of The Text of the New Testament, by Bruce M. Metzger, 2nd Ed. 1968, Oxford University Press, NY, NY). Bruce Metzger has authored more than 50 books. He holds two Masters Degrees, a Ph.D. and has been awarded several honorary doctorates. "He is past president of the Society of Biblical Literature, the International Society fo New Testament Studies, an the North American Patristic Society." -- From, The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel, Zondervan Publishers, 1998, Grand Rapids, MI: pg. 57.

 

[festeringZit]

Thanks for the agreeable comment. But I'll beg to differ and submit that God is kind and just with regard to all mankind. She is far too evolved to waste negative energy towards anyone who might mock Her or speak falsely about Her.

This is demonstrated in the gospel of Christ (among many other Master Teachers). We are forgiven for ALL erroneous thinking - aka "sins" - regardless of the error.

Thank goodness, because otherwise both you and I - and everyone else in the world - would likely have long ago been consigned to the FundyChristian mythological burning HellFire, eh?

Notice how Barman always refers to God as a she?

This is a mockery of the one true God who has always revealed himself as
Father.

Barman claims to be a follower of Christ, but denies just about everything
that Christ said or did.

 

[festeringZit]

Jesus showed himself to all the apostles after he died. He spoke to a crowd of 500. Paul who was a nonbeliever and took some responsibility for Jesus' death, saw jesus after he died and became a believer.

CapNCash,

This is one of the strongest rational reasons for belief in the resurrection.
Many of these people heard Jesus claim while he was alive that he would
rise from the dead after 3 days - many of his followers: Paul, James, Peter
were documented martyrs, who boldly gave up their life for the
Christian cause. There is no way they would have done this, if they
followed Jesus while he was alive, knowing that he made the claim that
he would rise again - and then they watched him get crucified. At that
point, they would have stopped being disciples if he stayed in the grave.

I highly recommend the book:
"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morison - an ex-skeptic who set out
to disprove the resurrection.

 

[festeringZit]

Historical Jesus - From Non Biblical Sources

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[festeringZit]

JP Moreland - Renowned PH.D. Philosophy Scholar from USC

JP Moreland - Renowned PH.D. Philosophy Scholar from USC

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[festeringZit]

JP Moreland - Part 2

JP Moreland - Part 2

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[Omni]

Putting the whole resurrection issue aside for a moment...

It was always kind of interesting to me that people claim that Jesus never existed. Because when you look at it, there is far more evidence and documentation that Jesus existed than many, many other figures in history. But no one doubts their existence.

Great thread so far. I have a lot more I'd like to add to the discussion, but not enough time right now.

 

[roadreeler57]

To me as long as your higher power is good & all powerful & you are not worshipping the Devil or as I call it evil then makes no diffrence,Christianity,Islam Buddism ect. so to me no sense arguing about it unless you're arguing with an evil (Devil) worshipper or somebody so arrogant & narrow minded as they don't believe in any good higher power at all...That's my simple look at it. Religeon is so simple & people have been complicating things about religeon for thousands of years & that's what turns a lot of people off about religeon.... Yeah we're lucky we do have a good higher power to have faith in or we'd really screw it up.

 

[fletchisrhsm]

Religeon is so simple

Yhea, it is Roadie...its just that damn hard spelling of religion that gives people fits.

:missingte

 

[roadreeler57]

Yhea, it is Roadie...its just that damn hard spelling of religion that gives people fits.

:missingte

Yeah I can't spell it..LOL...Lucky I have a good higher power to look up to that forgives me for spelling it wrong...If I went to Catholic school they would have made me write that on the board 100 times eh?

 

[fletchisrhsm]

To me as long as your higher power is good & all powerful & you are not worshipping the Devil or as I call it evil then makes no diffrence,Christianity,Islam Buddism ect. so to me no sense arguing about it unless you're arguing with an evil (Devil) worshipper or somebody so arrogant & narrow minded as they don't believe in any good higher power at all...That's my simple look at it. Religeon is so simple & people have been complicating things about religeon for thousands of years & that's what turns a lot of people off about religeon.... Yeah we're lucky we do have a good higher power to have faith in or we'd really screw it up.

:toast:

 

[fletchisrhsm]

To me as long as your higher power is good & all powerful & you are not worshipping the Devil or as I call it evil then makes no diffrence,Christianity,Islam Buddism ect. so to me no sense arguing about it unless you're arguing with an evil (Devil) worshipper or somebody so arrogant & narrow minded as they don't believe in any good higher power at all...That's my simple look at it. Religeon is so simple & people have been complicating things about religeon for thousands of years & that's what turns a lot of people off about religeon.... Yeah we're lucky we do have a good higher power to have faith in or we'd really screw it up.

All kidding aside, Roadie, this is a perspective of yours i can dig. I never have met a Devil worshiper, but from what i have heard, devil worshiping is the worship of the self. I wouldnt worry about those cats too much. I think however your acceptance of henotheism flies in the face of bible thumping Christianity or any other religious beliefs dead set on monotheism. Barman gets flack from Zit but in truth, Barmans beliefs aren't damning or judgmental or harsh...thus he has a much easier time living life outside of people from his beliefs. And since we live in a world with thousands of said beliefs...its pretty arrogant to think a persons own is the only righteous way. Either way, i think your onto something here.... well said.

 

[terpkeg]

But how was God created, or who created God? If no one created God or God created himself, what existed before God? If there was nothing, what is "nothing?" How do you go infinitely through time backwards? Doesn't every thing need a beginning? How do you or how does your soul live for eternity? How long is eternity? What if you want eternity to end? Can you end it? Do you lose all free will after you die?

What if you do not believe in God, but your loved ones do? Are they punished because you do not go to the afterworld? Do they care once they are there? If they don't, does this life even matter? What if they do care?

Why do other nonhuman species become extinct? Do they live on in the afterworld? If not, are they only here as human resources? Why were they created? Why were there species on earth before humans? Do other species have emotion, do they have a God?