How Critical Thinkers Lose Their Faith in God

[Derp]

TIME OUT! <><> Well done everybody! We all have valid points for our respective positions. We've all been on this trip before and no one ever backs down from their original statement (except in their own mind but not at the cost of pride or public embarrassment).

Does anyone want to debate the actual article? The premise that critical thinking makes people lose their faith?

I say that this article proves nothing except for the fact that when you make people stop and think about what they believe in you will inevitably get a different result than if they simply fire off their "intuitive" response to any subject. This article is trying to say that if you took a moment to use your brain and really think about it, you would come to the conclusion that God is not real. Well fuck that! Sample 1 will always be different from sample 2 on EVERYTHING!

Articles like this are dangerous because they try to create an intellectual consensus where if you do not agree you become the subject of ridicule which many people understandably try and avoid. No one wants to be thought of as the village idiot.

Or is that too boring?

Critical thinking is more than just a way of thinking it is a state of mind that defines your reality. When practiced and applied on a daily basis you will begin to see the world in a different way; that is a promise.

If we all started using critical thinking in our daily affairs the things that cause so much destructive division between us would become punch lines for jokes.

When will you decide to stop being told what to do and think and accept the responsibility of being a conscious living human?

 

[Illini]

Everyone is betting their life on something. Richard Dawkins and others are betting that there is no God, and that nothingness times nobody plus time=everything we have today. Let all the atheists stand around and praise themselves for such brilliant critical thinking.

I had a 10 year conversation with myself and considered all possibilities. Everything for me was reduced to
a) there is a Creator
b) there is right and wrong
c) I'm a sinner

The Bible gives me the only solution to my troubling realizations. It takes faith, but so does every other position. Man's heart is deceitfully wicked, and I deceived myself for many years while considering myself to be a good person. But the Word of God convicts me of my sin, and there is no denying it. And the story doesn't end there. Because of Christ, I have hope. And there is really nothing else in the world to live for besides hope.

 

[KingofNicotine]

You said that you searched and found that the right answers were in Christianity? And it just so happens that we live in a country where most are Christian? You're own family is most likely Christian. This doesn't bother you? If you lived in Indian you would "found" hinduism or buddhism. They're all interchangeable. You didn't find anything, you just finally gave in to the brainwashing of the land.

And festeringzits posts can all be summed up as "I don't understand therefore It's not real."

 

[Illini]

You said that you searched and found that the right answers were in Christianity? And it just so happens that we live in a country where most are Christian? You're own family is most likely Christian. This doesn't bother you? If you lived in Indian you would "found" hinduism or buddhism. They're all interchangeable. You didn't find anything, you just finally gave in to the brainwashing of the land.

And festeringzits posts can all be summed up as "I don't understand therefore It's not real."

Muhammad went into a cave and came out saying Jihad. That is not interchangable with Jesus Christ, divider of BC and AD, rising from the dead. And pantheistic religions are stupid. Karma is false. Atheism is absurd.

I'm done considering possibilities. There are no alternate truths, only one. And I'm all in.

 

[festeringZit]

You said that you searched and found that the right answers were in Christianity? And it just so happens that we live in a country where most are Christian? You're own family is most likely Christian. This doesn't bother you? If you lived in Indian you would "found" hinduism or buddhism. They're all interchangeable. You didn't find anything, you just finally gave in to the brainwashing of the land.

And festeringzits posts can all be summed up as "I don't understand therefore It's not real."

You keep attacking me with no provocation, and then you have the nerve to
say I'm the prick?

Have a nice day sir.

 

[mplastered]

You keep attacking me with no provocation, and then you have the nerve to
say I'm the prick?

Have a nice day sir.

Once again, thanks Mods.

 

[DesertDevil]

Everyone is betting their life on something. Richard Dawkins and others are betting that there is no God, and that nothingness times nobody plus time=everything we have today. Let all the atheists stand around and praise themselves for such brilliant critical thinking.

I had a 10 year conversation with myself and considered all possibilities. Everything for me was reduced to
a) there is a Creator
b) there is right and wrong
c) I'm a sinner

The Bible gives me the only solution to my troubling realizations. It takes faith, but so does every other position. Man's heart is deceitfully wicked, and I deceived myself for many years while considering myself to be a good person. But the Word of God convicts me of my sin, and there is no denying it. And the story doesn't end there. Because of Christ, I have hope. And there is really nothing else in the world to live for besides hope.

Spot on as far as what I believe.

Where myself and most people that call themselves "Christians" differ, is that I want no part of religion. My Christianity is a personal relationship. Its not going to some Church sitting in front of a man who thinks he has all the answers who wants to interpret the Bible for me. I have two eyes and a brain. I can read and I can think.

And I dont need anyone else raising my children. That is MY job as the head of my house.

The last time I went to "church" I was tempted several times to stand up and say, "You know what Pastor? I disagree with that. I think you are wrong and we should discuss it right here in front of all these people." I resisted. I dont think that would have gone over too well and my wife would have been pissed at me.

I agree iron sharpens iron and I agree that no man is an island. My Church is my God, my family, and my close friends. Dont need all the other manmade hogwash.

 

[TheFalls]

Spot on as far as what I believe.

Where myself and most people that call themselves "Christians" differ, is that I want no part of religion. My Christianity is a personal relationship. Its not going to some Church sitting in front of a man who thinks he has all the answers who wants to interpret the Bible for me. I have two eyes and a brain. I can read and I can think.

And I dont need anyone else raising my children. That is MY job as the head of my house.

The last time I went to "church" I was tempted several times to stand up and say, "You know what Pastor? I disagree with that. I think you are wrong and we should discuss it right here in front of all these people." I resisted. I dont think that would have gone over too well and my wife would have been pissed at me.

I agree iron sharpens iron and I agree that no man is an island. My Church is my God, my family, and my close friends. Dont need all the other manmade hogwash.

Great verse: iron sharpens iron!
I do believe you need fellowship with other believers though...every believer is unique and no one is perfect and many are hypocritical-but you have the opportunity to love them anyways.
Gathering with other believers, to me, allows for the realization that we are warriors and we are in it together and we should be there to encourage each other...but also call each other out (the right way). But I do agree that "religion" has been taking completely out of context over the past few hundred years.
It is indeed all about the relationship.
Chazaq!

 

[DesertDevil]

Great verse: iron sharpens iron!
I do believe you need fellowship with other believers though...every believer is unique and no one is perfect and many are hypocritical-but you have the opportunity to love them anyways.
Gathering with other believers, to me, allows for the realization that we are warriors and we are in it together and we should be there to encourage each other...but also call each other out (the right way). But I do agree that "religion" has been taking completely out of context over the past few hundred years.
It is indeed all about the relationship.
Chazaq!

I do have a fellowship with other believers. I have my family and my friends. Many of whom share the same relationship with God as I do. I dont understand why many discount this and feel that I need to go to a Church to fulfill this need.

I think there are some great people that go to Church. My Mom goes to Church (and she is the most faithful, selfless, loving person I know). So I dont look down on those that do. Some people feel they need it. Thats fine with me. I dont.

From what I know of Jesus, I suspect he is very disappointed with the current "church" model. What people do on a weekly basis gathering in these "places of worship" on Sunday isnt what he had in mind. These places are manipulative and they are full of people who have their own self interests and use the cloak of the "church" to abuse those interests.

What makes me better than these people? Nothing. We are all sinners. I just choose not to partake in a ritualistic activity every Sunday with them. Not my thing.

 

[HacheMan]

Spot on as far as what I believe.

Where myself and most people that call themselves "Christians" differ, is that I want no part of religion. My Christianity is a personal relationship. Its not going to some Church sitting in front of a man who thinks he has all the answers who wants to interpret the Bible for me. I have two eyes and a brain. I can read and I can think.

And I dont need anyone else raising my children. That is MY job as the head of my house.

The last time I went to "church" I was tempted several times to stand up and say, "You know what Pastor? I disagree with that. I think you are wrong and we should discuss it right here in front of all these people." I resisted. I dont think that would have gone over too well and my wife would have been pissed at me.

I agree iron sharpens iron and I agree that no man is an island. My Church is my God, my family, and my close friends. Dont need all the other manmade hogwash.

I see your point and your philosophy.

You want to base things on your own judgement and not rely on other people's opinions.

After all, unless someone has valid evidence regarding each individual subject they are arguing, then it's only an opinion.

Exactly why I don't believe in Psychologists, marriage counselors, etc.

How can they possibly tell you more about youreself than you already really know.

And in the end, it's only THEIR opinion.

You can go to a different psychologist or marriage counselor, and they can give you a completely different opinion.

I should say that I do believe in psychology to some extent as I believe some people have the ability to read someone by their actions, etc..
But I don't believe they can tell you what your problems are at home, with your spouse, or anything else unless they are with you 24-7 and inside your head, literally...

 

[DesertDevil]

I see your point and your philosophy.

You want to base things on your own judgement and not rely on other people's opinions.

After all, unless someone has valid evidence regarding each individual subject they are arguing, then it's only an opinion.

Exactly why I don't believe in Psychologists, marriage counselors, etc.

How can they possibly tell you more about youreself than you already really know.

And in the end, it's only THEIR opinion.

You can go to a different psychologist or marriage counselor, and they can give you a completely different opinion.

I should say that I do believe in psychology to some extent as I believe some people have the ability to read someone by their actions, etc..
But I don't believe they can tell you what your problems are at home, with your spouse, or anything else unless they are with you 24-7 and inside your head, literally...

There are a lot of things in the Bible that are black and white. Many grey areas though. Which leave things open to interpretation. This is why there are so many churches and denominations. I for one think its silly that I need to look to other people to interpret things for me. And all of these silly little rules they want you to follow? Give me a break. Show me in the Gospel where Jesus says to do these things, and I will do my best to follow. If not, then its hogwash.

Do I understand everything in the Bible? No. Do I question things? Yes. But I get the message. And I think the message is pure. All of these other things I will never find the answers to. So there is no use in dwelling on them. I dont believe we were meant to understand everything on this earth. If we were, then it would all be right there and God would be physically accessable to answer every question we have.

This is just the 1st stop on a journey that has no end. The world is full of evil, corruption, and suffering. But its just a dot at the beginning of a line that points to the right and never has an ending. After we all die, we will have all of our questions answered. And I believe we will all see that it made perfect sense. And what we have in store from us in the next life, will make us soon forget any suffering we had in this one.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

"Evolutionary whale expert" Philip Gingerich says that the so-called vestigal femur is actually a reproductive (sexual) clasper.
(The Press Enterprise, July 1, 1990. A-15)

I could go into much more detail about all the errors in Dawkins' book where he drools over whale evolution if you like...

So let me get this straight. You don't believe in evolution, but you use an "Evolutionary whale expert" to try to refute part of the claim? That's just.....odd. You know Gingerich is one of the reasons we have irrefutable proof that whales (and other aquatic mammals) evolved from land mammals, right?

Can you provide a source that quotes Gingerich on the particular vestigial bones in that picture? I'm not saying he didn't, but I can't find a source. For the record, Gingerich was the one who discovered vestigial ankle bones in whale fossils that gave it a direct link to land mammals.

Isn't it coincidental that the overwhelming majority of the "scientists" working to try to disprove evolution are those whose world view would be destroyed if evolution is true?

For those on the fence and interested in learning more, the Talk Origins site is an excellent resource. Their entry on whale evolution is here.

zit, I know you remember our long and brutal battle back when you were a young earth creationist. Now, as you told me previously, you believe that the earth is billions of years old. Congratulations on making progress. Many people live their entire lives in an echo chamber and never make an attempt to learn anything that might make them uncomfortable. The fact that you have changed your mind shows that it is possible. However, you argued your position that the universe was 6,000-10,000 years old with the same heated ferocity that you use when you argue against evolution. Keep reading and studying my friend and someday, you will learn how wrong you are. There are millions of Christians who also understand that our origins are best explained by evolution. You won't be alone.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

Let me also add that besides the vestigial pelvic and femur bones, modern whales have many other vestigial features. From the Talk Origins article:

The vestigial features of whales tell us two things. They tell us that whales, like so many other organisms, have features that make no sense from a design perspective - they have no current function, they require energy to produce and maintain, and they may be deleterious to the organism. They also tell us that whales carry a piece of their evolutionary past with them, highlighting a history of a terrestrial ancestry.

Modern whales often retain rod-like vestiges of pelvic bones, femora, and tibiae, all embedded within the musculature of their body walls. These bones are more pronounced in earlier species and less pronounced in later species. As the example of Basilosaurus shows, whales of intermediate age have intermediate-sized vestigial pelves and rear limb bones.

Whales also retain a number of vestigial structures in their organs of sensation. Modern whales have only vestigial olfactory nerves. Furthermore, in modern whales the auditory meatus (the exterior opening of the ear canal) is closed. In many, it is merely the size of a thin piece of string, about 1 mm in diameter, and often pinched off about midway. All whales have a number of small muscles devoted to nonexistent external ears, which are apparently a vestige of a time when they were able to move their ears - a behavior typically used by land animals for directional hearing.

The diaphragm in whales is vestigial and has very little muscle. Whales use the outward movement of the ribs to fill their lungs with air. Finally, Gould (1983) reported several occurrences of captured sperm whales with visible, protruding hind limbs. Similarly, dolphins have been spotted with tiny pelvic fins, although they probably were not supported by limb bones as in those rare sperm whales. And some whales, such as belugas, possess rudimentary ear pinnae - a feature that can serve no purpose in an animal with no external ear and that can reduce the animal's swimming efficiency by increasing hydrodynamic drag while swimming.

Although this list is by no means exhaustive, it is nonetheless clear that the whales have a wealth of vestigial features left over from their terrestrial ancestors.

 

[festeringZit]

So let me get this straight. You don't believe in evolution, but you use an "Evolutionary whale expert" to try to refute part of the claim? That's just.....odd. You know Gingerich is one of the reasons we have irrefutable proof that whales (and other aquatic mammals) evolved from land mammals, right?

Can you provide a source that quotes Gingerich on the particular vestigial bones in that picture? I'm not saying he didn't, but I can't find a source. For the record, Gingerich was the one who discovered vestigial ankle bones in whale fossils that gave it a direct link to land mammals.

Isn't it coincidental that the overwhelming majority of the "scientists" working to try to disprove evolution are those whose world view would be destroyed if evolution is true?

For those on the fence and interested in learning more, the Talk Origins site is an excellent resource. Their entry on whale evolution is here.

zit, I know you remember our long and brutal battle back when you were a young earth creationist. Now, as you told me previously, you believe that the earth is billions of years old. Congratulations on making progress. Many people live their entire lives in an echo chamber and never make an attempt to learn anything that might make them uncomfortable. The fact that you have changed your mind shows that it is possible. However, you argued your position that the universe was 6,000-10,000 years old with the same heated ferocity that you use when you argue against evolution. Keep reading and studying my friend and someday, you will learn how wrong you are. There are millions of Christians who also understand that our origins are best explained by evolution. You won't be alone.

Just a quick response for now. I never argued vehemently for a young earth position, as I hadn't studied young-earth vs. old-earth until recent years. I used to be sympathetic towards a young-earth position, but I no longer am. I don't think it's tenable, and I see how the word for "day" (YOM) in Genesis can refer to a long era of thousands or millions of years.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

I've never been able to figure out how to use the search function to find really old threads but you absolutely did argue that the earth was very young. I remember calling you out for using answersingenesis.com as a source.

 

[KingofNicotine]

You keep attacking me with no provocation, and then you have the nerve to
say I'm the prick?

Have a nice day sir.

You attack me and others unprovoked all the time. I've just always wondered how someone who pushes Christianity all the time can be so angry. It was a simple question.

 

[festeringZit]

You attack me and others unprovoked all the time. I've just always wondered how someone who pushes Christianity all the time can be so angry. It was a simple question.

I disagree. That being said, I admit I'm not the most patient person in the world.

If you still have hard feelings towards me from some discussion where went at it in the past, please accept my apologies.

 

[KingofNicotine]

Well no problem then we can all lose our patience every once in a while.

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

There are a lot of things in the Bible that are black and white. Many grey areas though. Which leave things open to interpretation. This is why there are so many churches and denominations. I for one think its silly that I need to look to other people to interpret things for me. And all of these silly little rules they want you to follow? Give me a break. Show me in the Gospel where Jesus says to do these things, and I will do my best to follow. If not, then its hogwash.

Do I understand everything in the Bible? No. Do I question things? Yes. But I get the message. And I think the message is pure. All of these other things I will never find the answers to. So there is no use in dwelling on them. I dont believe we were meant to understand everything on this earth. If we were, then it would all be right there and God would be physically accessable to answer every question we have.

This is just the 1st stop on a journey that has no end. The world is full of evil, corruption, and suffering. But its just a dot at the beginning of a line that points to the right and never has an ending. After we all die, we will have all of our questions answered. And I believe we will all see that it made perfect sense. And what we have in store from us in the next life, will make us soon forget any suffering we had in this one.

Sorry Coach...but I am going to have to put on my Bible scholar hat for just a minute.

You are wrong in your "interpretation" - in fact...the Bible is not open to any sort of interpretation at all. Check out 2 Peter 1:20;21 - "No scripture is open to interpretation..." and Psalm 19:7-9 - "God's word is perfect, righteous, and true". If the word of God is indeed perfect, as referenced throughout the entirity of the Bible, then it must not be open to any interpretation at all. In fact, it all is all black and white. The answer may not be obvious at first, but that is why you as a believer must adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed".

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you have "interpreted" yourself away from the Bible. You claim that you need not go to worship to serve the Lord...in fact the Bible says in Hebrews 2:23-25 "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the day drawing near". Worship is not just about sitting in a pew and listening to a sermon - in fact the main reason Christians are called to assembly is remember the sacrifice which Christ made (Luke 22:19). This "remberence" refers to the communion which all believers are required to partake of (John 6:53). If you are disillusioned with church, perhaps you should find a new church home - forsaking the assembly altogether is not the answer - nor is spreading and perpetuating the false belief that it is not necessary. Jesus himself specifically warned of false prophets whose teaching would decieve the people - and not all of them would be obvious...as a proclaimed follower of Christ I believe that you owe it to yourself to truly and examine and study the word. After all, that is how I got to the position which I now hold.[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]

 

[RaoulDuke]

King of nicotine your inbox is full.