How Critical Thinkers Lose Their Faith in God

[festeringZit]

Sorry Coach...but I am going to have to put on my Bible scholar hat for just a minute.

You are wrong in your "interpretation" - in fact...the Bible is not open to any sort of interpretation at all. Check out 2 Peter 1:20;21 - "No scripture is open to interpretation..." and Psalm 19:7-9 - "God's word is perfect, righteous, and true". If the word of God is indeed perfect, as referenced throughout the entirity of the Bible, then it must not be open to any interpretation at all. In fact, it all is all black and white. The answer may not be obvious at first, but that is why you as a believer must adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed".

You misquoted 2 Peter 1:20,21 and have totally distorted it's meaning.

Prophecy of Scripture

12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[DesertDevil]

Sorry Coach...but I am going to have to put on my Bible scholar hat for just a minute.

You are wrong in your "interpretation" - in fact...the Bible is not open to any sort of interpretation at all. Check out 2 Peter 1:20;21 - "No scripture is open to interpretation..." and Psalm 19:7-9 - "God's word is perfect, righteous, and true". If the word of God is indeed perfect, as referenced throughout the entirity of the Bible, then it must not be open to any interpretation at all. In fact, it all is all black and white. The answer may not be obvious at first, but that is why you as a believer must adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed".

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you have "interpreted" yourself away from the Bible. You claim that you need not go to worship to serve the Lord...in fact the Bible says in Hebrews 2:23-25 "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more, as you see the day drawing near". Worship is not just about sitting in a pew and listening to a sermon - in fact the main reason Christians are called to assembly is remember the sacrifice which Christ made (Luke 22:19). This "remberence" refers to the communion which all believers are required to partake of (John 6:53). If you are disillusioned with church, perhaps you should find a new church home - forsaking the assembly altogether is not the answer - nor is spreading and perpetuating the false belief that it is not necessary. Jesus himself specifically warned of false prophets whose teaching would decieve the people - and not all of them would be obvious...as a proclaimed follower of Christ I believe that you owe it to yourself to truly and examine and study the word. After all, that is how I got to the position which I now hold.

Thank you for your concern Al. But as far as interpreting goes, I disagree with you 100%.

I do agree that the Word is truth. But there are NUMEROUS topics within the Bible that MULTIPLE denominations disagree on.

Let me ask you this... Is it a sin to drink alcohol? It is a sin to be "drunk". But is it a sin to drink alcohol? Jesus drank wine. So it cant be a sin right?

But how much is too much? One? Two drinks? Blowing .08?

I would like for you to quote me scripture and give me an absolute answer please. If there isnt one, then you prove my point with "grey areas".

As far as your next point. Please consider the following before being judgemental:

1. I worship the Lord.
2. I congregate with fellow believers and discuss/study the Word.
3. I read the Word.
4. I have Bible studies with my Children.
5. I pray.

What I dont do? I dont gather on a Sunday morning in a "building" like man has brainwashed us to do since we were born.

Please show me the scripture where it says I must attend a "Church" on a Sunday morning please. Im still looking....

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

You misquoted 2 Peter 1:20,21 and have totally distorted it's meaning.

Prophecy of Scripture

12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

No - that is exactly what I meant. No scripture can be of private interpretation. It was written by men who were directly inspired by God - therefore it is perfect. If it is perfect it cannot be open to the interpretations of men. You can't say "Well I think so and so means this" and have someone else say that it means something else. One of you is right or both of you can be wrong - if you are dealing in scriptures after all - which are defined as the ultimate truth...at least according to God. The answer may not be in "black and white" but you of all people understand that you must look at the Bible as a complete work and even then sometimes you must take a look at the original texts in their original language. It is an absolute...it is right or it is wrong - there is not any room for wiggling or manipulating.

 

[festeringZit]

No - that is exactly what I meant. No scripture can be of private interpretation. It was written by men who were directly inspired by God - therefore it is perfect. If it is perfect it cannot be open to the interpretations of men. You can't say "Well I think so and so means this" and have someone else say that it means something else. One of you is right or both of you can be wrong - if you are dealing in scriptures after all - which are defined as the ultimate truth...at least according to God. The answer may not be in "black and white" but you of all people understand that you must look at the Bible as a complete work and even then sometimes you must take a look at the original texts in their original language. It is an absolute...it is right or it is wrong - there is not any room for wiggling or manipulating.

That isn't the context of the passage nor what the verse is saying. It's saying what the men wrote down as Scripture was not open to their interpretation (as they were writing it down):

"no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things..."

To say that we can't interpret Scripture is asinine, I've never heard ANY reputable scholar say that. We have to interpret Scripture. It's fine to debate, and come to a conclusion what the clear and best interpretation is, but to say we can't interpret Scripture is ludicrous.

 

[festeringZit]

Thank you for your concern Al. But as far as interpreting goes, I disagree with you 100%.

I do agree that the Word is truth. But there are NUMEROUS topics within the Bible that MULTIPLE denominations disagree on.

Let me ask you this... Is it a sin to drink alcohol? It is a sin to be "drunk". But is it a sin to drink alcohol? Jesus drank wine. So it cant be a sin right?

But how much is too much? One? Two drinks? Blowing .08?

I would like for you to quote me scripture and give me an absolute answer please. If there isnt one, then you prove my point with "grey areas".

As far as your next point. Please consider the following before being judgemental:

1. I worship the Lord.
2. I congregate with fellow believers and discuss/study the Word.
3. I read the Word.
4. I have Bible studies with my Children.
5. I pray.

What I dont do? I dont gather on a Sunday morning in a "building" like man has brainwashed us to do since we were born.

Please show me the scripture where it says I must attend a "Church" on a Sunday morning please. Im still looking....

I agree 100%.

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

Thank you for your concern Al. But as far as interpreting goes, I disagree with you 100%.

I do agree that the Word is truth. But there are NUMEROUS topics within the Bible that MULTIPLE denominations disagree on.

The Bible is staunchly against denominations. Romans 16-17:18

Let me ask you this... Is it a sin to drink alcohol? It is a sin to be "drunk". But is it a sin to drink alcohol? Jesus drank wine. So it cant be a sin right?

But how much is too much? One? Two drinks? Blowing .08?

BTW...these aren't my words...but I believe they do a good job of summing up what I would say.

Scripture nowhere gives a universal command on the order: "take no wine at all". In fact, select groups that forgo wine are worthy of mention as acting differently from accepted Biblical practice, e.g. the Nazarites (Num. 6:2-6) and John the Baptizer (Luke 1:15). Others are forbidden to imbibe wine only during the formal exercise of their specific duties, e.g. priests (Lev. 10:8-11) and kings (Prov. 31: 4, 5). All prohibitions to partaking wine involve prohibitions either to immoderate consumption or to abusers: "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30).
Conclusion

When all is said and done, we must distinguish the use of wine from its abuse. Sometimes in Scripture gluttonous partaking of food is paralleled with immoderate drinking of wine (Deut. 21:20; Prov. 23:21). But food is not universally prohibited! Sometimes in Scripture sexual perversion is paralleled with drunkenness (Rom. 13:13; I Pet. 4:3). But all sexual activity is not condemned! Wealth often becomes a snare to the sinner (I Tim. 6:9-11), but the Scripture does not universally decry its acquisition (Job 42:10-17)! Each of these factors in life is intended by God to be a blessing for man, when used according to His righteous Law. It would seem abundantly clear, then, that the Scriptures do allow the moderate partaking of alcoholic beverages. There is no hesitancy in Scripture in commending wine, nor embarrassment in portraying its consumption among the righteous of Biblical days. Wine is set before the saints as blessing and gladness (Deut. 14:26; Ps. 104:14-15), even though it may be to the immoderate and wicked a mocker and curse (Prov. 20:1; 23:29ff.).


I would like for you to quote me scripture and give me an absolute answer please. If there isnt one, then you prove my point with "grey areas".

If you believe that the Bible has a "grey" area you cannot also believe that it is a perfect. A perfect document leaves no room for interpretation. It is mentioned over and over again about how the Bible is the perfect word of God. Those "grey areas" may be interpreted to non-believers as contradictions. Do you believe that the Bible has any contradictions?

As far as your next point. Please consider the following before being judgemental:

1. I worship the Lord.
2. I congregate with fellow believers and discuss/study the Word.
3. I read the Word.
4. I have Bible studies with my Children.
5. I pray.

What I dont do? I dont gather on a Sunday morning in a "building" like man has brainwashed us to do since we were born.

You don't partake of the communion and you may not be keeping up with your stewardship...do you actively seek to convert men to Christ?

Please show me the scripture where it says I must attend a "Church" on a Sunday morning please. Im still looking....

The church is not a building - wherever you have a gathering of individuals who are united in worship - that is a "church"...if you do all of those things which you have listed, then I would consider you to be within sound Biblical doctrine.

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

That isn't the context of the passage nor what the verse is saying. It's saying what the men wrote down as Scripture was not open to their interpretation (as they were writing it down):

"no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things..."

To say that we can't interpret Scripture is asinine, I've never heard ANY reputable scholar say that. We have to interpret Scripture. It's fine to debate, and come to a conclusion what the clear and best interpretation is, but to say we can't interpret Scripture is ludicrous.

So you can agree that we can interpret scripture to find the one true interpretation? Or are you saying that coming to multiple conclusions about the same block of verses in acceptable? Maybe I am not being very clear with my words...my point is that scripture is absolute - there can be only one "true" interpretation if it were indeed inspired by God.

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

Thank you for your concern Al. But as far as interpreting goes, I disagree with you 100%.

I do agree that the Word is truth. But there are NUMEROUS topics within the Bible that MULTIPLE denominations disagree on.

Let me ask you this... Is it a sin to drink alcohol? It is a sin to be "drunk". But is it a sin to drink alcohol? Jesus drank wine. So it cant be a sin right?

But how much is too much? One? Two drinks? Blowing .08?

I would like for you to quote me scripture and give me an absolute answer please. If there isnt one, then you prove my point with "grey areas".

As far as your next point. Please consider the following before being judgemental:

1. I worship the Lord.
2. I congregate with fellow believers and discuss/study the Word.
3. I read the Word.
4. I have Bible studies with my Children.
5. I pray.

What I dont do? I dont gather on a Sunday morning in a "building" like man has brainwashed us to do since we were born.

Please show me the scripture where it says I must attend a "Church" on a Sunday morning please. Im still looking....

Interesting thought here. Have you ever thought about how this applies to mankind and religion? Brainwashed from birth that is...

 

[DesertDevil]

Al:

You asked if I "actively seek men to convert to Christ".

I have a different philosophy than most. I think the "old fashioned" way of beating people over the head and telling them they are going to hell if they dont repent is counterproductive.

I develop relationships with people. Everyone who knows me knows what my faith is. And I try to find opportune moments to share the word.

So I guess whether or not I do is left up to your "interpretation". haha

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

Al:

You asked if I "actively seek men to convert to Christ".

I have a different philosophy than most. I think the "old fashioned" way of beating people over the head and telling them they are going to hell if they dont repent is counterproductive.

I develop relationships with people. Everyone who knows me knows what my faith is. And I try to find opportune moments to share the word.

So I guess whether or not I do is left up to your "interpretation". haha

FWIW I believe that you are correct in your approach

 

[festeringZit]

So you can agree that we can interpret scripture to find the one true interpretation? Or are you saying that coming to multiple conclusions about the same block of verses in acceptable? Maybe I am not being very clear with my words...my point is that scripture is absolute - there can be only one "true" interpretation if it were indeed inspired by God.

I think that we should always strive to find the intended meaning. Now that I see where you are coming from, I think we are in agreement, i.e. from God's point of view, he didn't write Scripture passages to have multiple meanings - and we need to strive to find the author's intent.

 

[TheFalls]

Thank you for your concern Al. But as far as interpreting goes, I disagree with you 100%.

I do agree that the Word is truth. But there are NUMEROUS topics within the Bible that MULTIPLE denominations disagree on.

Let me ask you this... Is it a sin to drink alcohol? It is a sin to be "drunk". But is it a sin to drink alcohol? Jesus drank wine. So it cant be a sin right?

But how much is too much? One? Two drinks? Blowing .08?

I would like for you to quote me scripture and give me an absolute answer please. If there isnt one, then you prove my point with "grey areas".

As far as your next point. Please consider the following before being judgemental:

1. I worship the Lord.
2. I congregate with fellow believers and discuss/study the Word.
3. I read the Word.
4. I have Bible studies with my Children.
5. I pray.

What I dont do? I dont gather on a Sunday morning in a "building" like man has brainwashed us to do since we were born.

Please show me the scripture where it says I must attend a "Church" on a Sunday morning please. Im still looking....

Drinking is ok imo. I like drinking. Not to get drunk though...and not in front of others if it will cause them to fall. The problem with alcohol in our society is that you are somehow automatically associated with being hypocritical if you drink and that sucks but that's what it is. Jesus drank with the unbelievers, and that is one of the reasons why he was deemed controversial.

Who do you pay your first fruits to if you don't go to a church?

 

[DesertDevil]

I think that we should always strive to find the intended meaning. Now that I see where you are coming from, I think we are in agreement, i.e. from God's point of view, he didn't write Scripture passages to have multiple meanings - and we need to strive to find the author's intent.

I think we are in agreement too. There is only one truth. But what if Al and I disagree on a topic? Lets say gambling...

I put $50 into a fantasy football league. Is this gambling? Is this a sin? I dont think so. What if Al takes a hard stance on this and says it is. Who is right?

Only one of us right? There is only 1 truth right? Grey area...........

The way I see it, this topic is between me and God. I dont need Al or some Church telling me its wrong. I am ultimately the person who has to answer for this if Im wrong.

Just an example...

 

[DesertDevil]

Who do you pay your first fruits to if you don't go to a church?

Good question. Is giving to a charity or giving to people in need not giving money towards the Lords purpose?

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

I think we are in agreement too. There is only one truth. But what if Al and I disagree on a topic? Lets say gambling...

I put $50 into a fantasy football league. Is this gambling? Is this a sin? I dont think so. What if Al takes a hard stance on this and says it is. Who is right?

Only one of us right? There is only 1 truth right? Grey area...........

The way I see it, this topic is between me and God. I dont need Al or some Church telling me its wrong. I am ultimately the person who has to answer for this if Im wrong.

Just an example...

The Bible is pretty clear on gambling - more so on the evils which gambling can and often do lead too regarding covetousness, greed, lust, etc...you won't find a true Bible-believing Christian anywhere who would condone gambling. Now obviously, since you are here, you like to gamble - I could care less what you do personally, but the Bible instructs you to abstain from the appearance of evil. By partaking you could be causing someone to stumble spiritually - which opens another can of worms.

It seems your grey areas aren't quite as grey as they appear.

 

[DesertDevil]

The Bible is pretty clear on gambling - more so on the evils which gambling can and often do lead too regarding covetousness, greed, lust, etc...you won't find a true Bible-believing Christian anywhere who would condone gambling. Now obviously, since you are here, you like to gamble - I could care less what you do personally, but the Bible instructs you to abstain from the appearance of evil. By partaking you could be causing someone to stumble spiritually - which opens another can of worms.

It seems your grey areas aren't quite as grey as they appear.

Ok. Fair enough. But I would like to know Al, am I sinning by entering a fantasy football league and paying $50 to play?

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

I think we are in agreement too. There is only one truth. But what if Al and I disagree on a topic? Lets say gambling...

I put $50 into a fantasy football league. Is this gambling? Is this a sin? I dont think so. What if Al takes a hard stance on this and says it is. Who is right?

Only one of us right? There is only 1 truth right? Grey area...........

The way I see it, this topic is between me and God. I dont need Al or some Church telling me its wrong. I am ultimately the person who has to answer for this if Im wrong.

Just an example...

The Bible exhorts Christians to hold their brethern accountable. If you or whoever is in the wrong - it is up to whomever as a Christian to explain to you why you are wrong and then up to you to ask forgiveness and repent. It is between you and God, but if you guys are right there are going to be an awful lot of "Christians" going to Hell for things that they kept between "themselves and God".

 

[ALSportsJunkie]

Ok. Fair enough. But I would like to know Al, am I sinning by entering a fantasy football league and paying $50 to play?

Do you stand to make a profit if you win? If so then you are sinning. It doesn't matter what sort of mask you put on it - it is still gambling.

 

[DesertDevil]

Do you stand to make a profit if you win? If so then you are sinning. It doesn't matter what sort of mask you put on it - it is still gambling.

The funny thing about it, is this is a fantasy football league I have played in for 13 years. And its a "church" league. My former pastor used to be in it too.

Just thought you would find that funny. Or maybe you dont....

 

[DesertDevil]

The Bible exhorts Christians to hold their brethern accountable. If you or whoever is in the wrong - it is up to whomever as a Christian to explain to you why you are wrong and then up to you to ask forgiveness and repent. It is between you and God, but if you guys are right there are going to be an awful lot of "Christians" going to Hell for things that they kept between "themselves and God".

Christians are going to hell for sinning? Really? My sins were paid for on the Cross. I was saved by Grace, not by my works. I fell way short with the "works" thing along time ago.

Does this mean I have a free pass to sin the rest of my life? Of course not.

We could get into tons of topics here Al. Can one lose their salvation once they are already saved? If so, were they ever really saved in the 1st place? Do you believe in predestination? Do you believe in free will?

We could go on and on and on and on and on....

My point will remain the same. You and I arent going to agree with everything in Gods Word. And I think it is absolutely pointless to debate these "grey areas" as I call them. Because in the grand scheme of things: 1) They are inconsequential in the big picture. 2) We will go in circles.