I'm assuming you're referring to his multiverse hypothesis. Certainly, the Borde-Guth-Velinkin theorem is not very speculative at all, and is embraced by the vast majority of contemporary cosmologists. In fact, I'm not aware of anyone who holds a position at a major university who challenges or rejects it. Can you name someone?
I'm not appealing to intuition. I'm appealing to the fact that all of the scientific evidence points to a cosmic beginning.
I'm also trying to avoid religious extremists, but that is irrelevent to whether or not God exists. It could very well be that God exists and fundamentalist religions have some bad interpretations.
Why do you think God's existence should be any more or less obvious than it is? Given that we're talking about a being with infinite intelligence here, I don't see how we could ever be in a position to know that.
love the thread....i appreciate the sophistication of the conversations and creative writing, but i am different so here is the slow version of what i think on religion in a very basic form.
i in the recent years have started thinking about religion in a different light....i was raised in a family that if you did or didnt do what was required of you to follow god that you were going to burn in Hell immediately upon death and since you really dont know when you will or might die you must be prepared at all times.......so basically in fear of dying, kind of shitty for children under age of say 12 or so......with tons of fear when i made mistakes i was scared of them hiding most anything i could..........when i was old enough to shake off what other people thought and started thinking for myself i realized that the bible is unrealistic...........the ideas that were taught to me wer ideas that were supposed to be the way and all others were damned to hell.........
here is my thought. if god created man then why did he make everyting that we lust a sin? or better why not just leave lust out of it? i personally think that its really stupid to think that a man created lust for us to not use it. what a sick concept. haha .... a man created anything back in the day without any knowledge of science. i mean maybe one day we can take tissue or a bone and grow humans. but to think that a single man can make things, from what his thoughts paranormal esp science???????? so did he use magic? or what?
i think religion is more of a way of thinking, in the day they created this shit so that everyone could be showed a single way of living to create order.
i havent really put that much thought into this stuff as some of you have because really once i realized there wasnt a santa clause i stopped thinking about him until i had kids and started to trick them into thinking.
i wished i had some really fancy words and was really creative in my writing. but i am simple so this is what you get.
i have some people really closee to me that attend church and they believe deeply. These people though are not that capable of handling challenging situations and dont really think for themselves on hardly any subject. they are constantly seeking approval from peers. or they exist in a competitive enviroment to validate themselves. i love these people to death and there way of life i support, i dont know what the correct way is in life, to me rather whats the point? Give me 70 years of peace, and the ability to enjoy life and i am good.
so dude decides that he wants to die for everyone and doing so will flush sin from everyone, or something like that.........if i went out today and hung myself and said i am doing so because i am ridding my self and others of gambling, and by following my life and ideas and asking me for forgiveness you will be forgiven for all of your gambling. that sounds so ridiculous.
there are all the time men arrested for starting cults, having multiple, under age wives. and these people really believe that that is what they are supposed to do. A "Godlike" attitude, they are exempt from laws etc etc.
what is the difference i say? if i decide i want to be jesus and hang myself in a public outcry, will anyone reading this get together and start writing books about my like, my father, mother? etc and Bam a new religion begins. One that is newer by several hundred years than other religions and be more right than all other religions that were created before???
Either i am completly insanse or the person that disagress is insane?
oh and my spell check is broke and i suck at typing so dont bother with the spelling jokes
also what religion do you think i was raised in? specifically....
i in the recent years have started thinking about religion in a different light....i was raised in a family that if you did or didnt do what was required of you to follow god that you were going to burn in Hell immediately upon death and since you really dont know when you will or might die you must be prepared at all times.......so basically in fear of dying, kind of shitty for children under age of say 12 or so......with tons of fear when i made mistakes i was scared of them hiding most anything i could..........when i was old enough to shake off what other people thought and started thinking for myself i realized that the bible is unrealistic...........the ideas that were taught to me wer ideas that were supposed to be the way and all others were damned to hell.........
here is my thought. if god created man then why did he make everyting that we lust a sin? or better why not just leave lust out of it? i personally think that its really stupid to think that a man created lust for us to not use it. what a sick concept. haha .... a man created anything back in the day without any knowledge of science. i mean maybe one day we can take tissue or a bone and grow humans. but to think that a single man can make things, from what his thoughts paranormal esp science???????? so did he use magic? or what?
i think religion is more of a way of thinking, in the day they created this shit so that everyone could be showed a single way of living to create order.
i havent really put that much thought into this stuff as some of you have because really once i realized there wasnt a santa clause i stopped thinking about him until i had kids and started to trick them into thinking.
i wished i had some really fancy words and was really creative in my writing. but i am simple so this is what you get.
i have some people really closee to me that attend church and they believe deeply. These people though are not that capable of handling challenging situations and dont really think for themselves on hardly any subject. they are constantly seeking approval from peers. or they exist in a competitive enviroment to validate themselves. i love these people to death and there way of life i support, i dont know what the correct way is in life, to me rather whats the point? Give me 70 years of peace, and the ability to enjoy life and i am good.
so dude decides that he wants to die for everyone and doing so will flush sin from everyone, or something like that.........if i went out today and hung myself and said i am doing so because i am ridding my self and others of gambling, and by following my life and ideas and asking me for forgiveness you will be forgiven for all of your gambling. that sounds so ridiculous.
there are all the time men arrested for starting cults, having multiple, under age wives. and these people really believe that that is what they are supposed to do. A "Godlike" attitude, they are exempt from laws etc etc.
what is the difference i say? if i decide i want to be jesus and hang myself in a public outcry, will anyone reading this get together and start writing books about my like, my father, mother? etc and Bam a new religion begins. One that is newer by several hundred years than other religions and be more right than all other religions that were created before???
Either i am completly insanse or the person that disagress is insane?
oh and my spell check is broke and i suck at typing so dont bother with the spelling jokes
also what religion do you think i was raised in? specifically....
Well, you sure did cover a lot there in one post. You have some basic ideas I agree with. Some I totally disagree with. Sorry that I wont be able to respond to each one.
I think most people have a hard time separating "religion" from "God". I for one think they are totally separate things. Religion is man made. Religion is manipulative. Religion is many of the negative things that you portray it as. I agree with you there.
But God, if you believe there is one (and I personally do), is the opposite of all these things. And I personally believe that he is probably more sickened by those who have taken advantage of his name for their own personal gain in this life than any other form of scum on this Earth.
And if you believe that Jesus was the son of God, then he didnt just die. Far more complex than just that. You could go out and sacrifice your life for others as you gave an example of, but good luck raising yourself from the dead. #%()#%()
And if I would have to guess what "religion" you were raised in.... My guess would be Catholicism. Maybe something extreme and controlling like Jehovahs Witness. Probably and religion that uses shame and guilt. Rather than focusing on God and Grace.
"How Critical Thinkers Lose Their Faith in God"
After reading over the article it seems to me that this experiment could be applied to any topic and create a diminished belief in it. The title is sensationalist nonsense and is not supported by the experimentors conclusions. We have advanced enough in our understanding of human behaivour that it can be manipulated, especially in the case of weak minded people, to achieve whatever desired result you want.
I have enjoyed the debate from both sides, however, I think that a few of you need to go back and apply critical thinking to your position.
From wikipedia: Critical thinking clarifies goals, examines assumptions, discerns hidden values, evaluates evidence, accomplishes actions, and assesses conclusions.
Applying critical thinking to my own life and the myriad topics of interest and concern in our modern world has brought me closer to God and re-newed my faith in Jesus Christ.
After reading over the article it seems to me that this experiment could be applied to any topic and create a diminished belief in it. The title is sensationalist nonsense and is not supported by the experimentors conclusions. We have advanced enough in our understanding of human behaivour that it can be manipulated, especially in the case of weak minded people, to achieve whatever desired result you want.
I have enjoyed the debate from both sides, however, I think that a few of you need to go back and apply critical thinking to your position.
From wikipedia: Critical thinking clarifies goals, examines assumptions, discerns hidden values, evaluates evidence, accomplishes actions, and assesses conclusions.
Applying critical thinking to my own life and the myriad topics of interest and concern in our modern world has brought me closer to God and re-newed my faith in Jesus Christ.
southern baptist and finally they are a dying breed
imo jesus rose from the dead because he did not die after all he was nailed to a cross and left out in the sun....who knows.....reliogion is twisted over time i agree....and starting from day 1....god was glorified as was jesus.....but to me that doesnt make them "GOD" .... maybe just a god........like many other gods in religion who decides in that time the day god was alive and had a name and was basically a citizen of the region just like jesus was............that they had "the way and the right"..........in basic terms it doesnt make sense.......now faith to me is like believing in the intangible, that is something i dont go along with at all....... and here is what i mean.
when i was 8 or so i learned that the waters were parted by moses or something like that......... now this is a recalection not a movie clip or a picture...... when someone tells the story of ALABAMA CrIMSON TIDE, there is similarities......the guy writing about the game says that Alabama's defense crosses the line of scrimage like a Rolling Crimson Tide.....i dont remember what year game etc. ..... but basically a single mans recolection created the name "ALABAMA CRIMSON TIDE" why not alabama rolling crimson tide?
There is not a single ancient historian in the world right now who accepts the swoon theory (that Jesus never died on the cross) as an adequate explanation for Jesus' fate. Do you really think a half dead Jesus badly in need of medical attention would have inspired the disciples to go out and endanger their lives by claiming he was the Messiah?
And what about Paul's experience?
Both sides, religion & science, have strong arguments.
I'm afraid to say these days that the latter (science) may have the stronger case.
However, even though I do believe evolution of living things, I only believe it to a certain extent.
No matter how many millions of years we may be in existence, it's very difficult to believe that we began as a microorganism, single cell, or what have you, and through hundreds of thousands of years we evolved enough to enlarge and grow a mouth to feed on, hundreds of thousands of years later we then developed eyes, hundreds or millions of years later a nose, then hair, then lungs, then legs, a liver, anus, pancreas, intestines, reproductive system, so on & so on.
I suppose now that we have pictures, video, and data, that only those in the future will be able to determine if we are STILL evolving a thousand years or more from now.
If we are not extinct by then, and thousands of years from now we have not evolved any further in the slightest, then religion gains an edge.
There is a Christian Scientist who came up with this argument....
The odds of something so rare & amazing happening to create life, such as a big bang, would be the equivelant of a Tornado sweeping through an airplane junkyard, and when the tornado had passed, that the planes were not only magically assembled back together in one piece, but the engines ALSO cranked up and ran...
I'm afraid to say these days that the latter (science) may have the stronger case.
However, even though I do believe evolution of living things, I only believe it to a certain extent.
No matter how many millions of years we may be in existence, it's very difficult to believe that we began as a microorganism, single cell, or what have you, and through hundreds of thousands of years we evolved enough to enlarge and grow a mouth to feed on, hundreds of thousands of years later we then developed eyes, hundreds or millions of years later a nose, then hair, then lungs, then legs, a liver, anus, pancreas, intestines, reproductive system, so on & so on.
I suppose now that we have pictures, video, and data, that only those in the future will be able to determine if we are STILL evolving a thousand years or more from now.
If we are not extinct by then, and thousands of years from now we have not evolved any further in the slightest, then religion gains an edge.
There is a Christian Scientist who came up with this argument....
The odds of something so rare & amazing happening to create life, such as a big bang, would be the equivelant of a Tornado sweeping through an airplane junkyard, and when the tornado had passed, that the planes were not only magically assembled back together in one piece, but the engines ALSO cranked up and ran...
people have followed man many times over and for less.........
back in that time who knows what medical knowledge they had.....i am not arguing that you are not right i am simply saying that it deosnt make sense to me...... and if you are right then why does the Jewish religion believe jesus has still not risen?
its just a snowball effect of recollection.........People do not come back from the dead......
At the time of Jesus' death, his (very) few followers were scattered in fear and shame. But yet over the next century His followers "Christ-ians" would sweep the Roman empire, and his scattered disciples who were denying him at the time of his death were now giving up their lives for the cause. Even the skeptics like his brother James would be seen leading the early church (according to the Jewish historian Josephus). The *only* explanation is that Jesus rose again and appeared to them, and as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:7, he also appeared to his skeptic brother James.
I think you'd be hardpressed to find a historical example of someone barely surviving an execution, being visibly near death, and his followers claiming God raised him from the dead.
Which Jew? I'm pretty sure the reasons change depending on which person you ask. Some Jews do believe Jesus was raised from the dead. They call themselves Messianic Jews. One Jewish ancient historian named T.N.D Mettinger set out to disprove the ressurection and ended up concluding that it really happened.
People definitely don't come back from the dead naturally. But if God exists and wanted to raise Jesus from the dead, it's perfectly plausible. And there's a surprising amount of historical evidence that points to it (i.e. the empty tomb, post-mortem appearences, conversion of skeptics like Paul after they claimed to see him post-execution)
I cant speak for others in this thread, but I never posted in this thread with the idea of trying to change anyone's mind about anything.
Im not on some holy crusade at this point in my life. No desire for that. Ive come to the realization that its pointless really.
I am just of the very strong opinion (and Ill call it fact at this point until it can be proven false
!/) that science on this earth will neither prove, nor disprove the existence of a God. Neither will it ever prove nor disprove how this earth came into being. That was my original purpose. Any other comments were just simply replying to other posts.
