Why would the average citizen need to own an AR-15?

[wabashwonders]

If your facts were correct, I may agree with you but your facts are wrong. Here are the facts believe them or not.

1) The ATF was serving a warrant based on more than 100 Branch Davidians amassing illegal firearms to include AR-15's, AK-47's and grenades.

2) The ATF were armed with search and arrest warrants.

3) 76 agents were part of the operation dubbed "Operation Trojan Horse."

4) There were no military members involved in the initial ATF raid on the ranch. In fact, the U.S. Military cannot participate in this kind of raid anyway.

5) The Davidians were tipped off about the raid and when the ATF approached the property, they were fired on by the Davidians through windows and walls of the compound etc.

These are facts. Believe whatever you want. You can call that an ambush or whatever. I call it serving a warrant and being shot at in the process of serving the warrant. It's called murder.

What would have happened had Koresh just come out and talked to the lead agent like a grown adult?

Lol, you do realize much if that is fake news, right? The Army National Guard is considered part of the military and ANG helicopters were used in this raid. The warrant had trumped up charges that a meth lab was on the site which is what allowed them to use military since drugs were involved. They lied!! Operation Trojan Horse, adequetly named after a tale about a secret attack. Even though this was the official code name of the operation, the troops on the ground called it, “Showtime”.

Im surprised you fell for all that fake news lol.

 

[Enfuego]

Lol, you do realize much if that is fake news, right? The Army National Guard is considered part of the military and ANG helicopters were used in this raid. The warrant had trumped up charges that a meth lab was on the site which is what allowed them to use military since drugs were involved. They lied!! Operation Trojan Horse, adequetly named after a tale about a secret attack. Even though this was the official code name of the operation, the troops on the ground called it, “Showtime”.

Im surprised you fell for all that fake news lol.

The National Guard is very separate than active duty forces. The NG works for the governor of each state while active duty members are federal employees.

So, at the end of the day, you just don't believe the raid happened like it did? Is that what you're saying? The warrants were fake, they weren't going there to seize guns etc.?

Your sticking to your point it's ok to shoot a federal agent who steps on your property to serve a warrant?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/atf-agents-fatal-1993-waco-raid-describe-barrage/story?id=52148324

 

[wabashwonders]

The National Guard is very separate than active duty forces. The NG works for the governor of each state while active duty members are federal employees.

So, at the end of the day, you just don't believe the raid happened like it did? Is that what you're saying? The warrants were fake, they weren't going there to seize guns etc.?

Your sticking to your point it's ok to shoot a federal agent who steps on your property to serve a warrant?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/atf-agents-fatal-1993-waco-raid-describe-barrage/story?id=52148324

I’ll believe a person who survived the ordeal over some news report that has been fabricated. And where did I say it was ok to shoot a federal agent? I agreed it’s wrong, but that’s not how it happened. And the NG is considered a part of the military. I didn’t say anything about active forces. They work for the military. They are considered a reserve military force.

 

[Michelangelo]

Stop worrying about guns and worry about people. More focus on mental health and actual values. More parents spending time with their kids and actually teaching them about being a human. Focusing on guns is the simplistic solution. End.......of.....story

There lies the real problem.

With the upbringing I had (and I would hope many more of us) it would be completely out of my thought pattern to use a gun for anything other than military purposes, self defense, or hunting.

Many of you are not going to like hearing this, but the moral soul of this country is bankrupt and empty for many of our citizens. As religion, and the boundaries it created, has receded in popularity, gun violence and many other forms of immorality have increased. Guarantee that there is an inverse correlation.

When the soul is rotted there are no limitations to evil.

 

[PatsFan1283]

There lies the real problem.

With the upbringing I had (and I would hope many more of us) it would be completely out of my thought pattern to use a gun for anything other than military purposes, self defense, or hunting.

Many of you are not going to like hearing this, but the moral soul of this country is bankrupt and empty for many of our citizens. As religion, and the boundaries it created, has receded in popularity, gun violence and many other forms of immorality have increased. Guarantee that there is an inverse correlation.

When the soul is rotted there are no limitations to evil.

Correlation can't be that high since gun violence and most violent crime in general are at multi-decade lows.

This rash of school shootings and media hysteria aside, we live in a very safe country despite some flaws.

 

[wabashwonders]

There lies the real problem.

With the upbringing I had (and I would hope many more of us) it would be completely out of my thought pattern to use a gun for anything other than military purposes, self defense, or hunting.

Many of you are not going to like hearing this, but the moral soul of this country is bankrupt and empty for many of our citizens. As religion, and the boundaries it created, has receded in popularity, gun violence and many other forms of immorality have increased. Guarantee that there is an inverse correlation.

When the soul is rotted there are no limitations to evil.

My upbringing was in a safe world where we left our doors unlocked and our parents didn’t worry about us riding our bikes all over as long as we were home when we were told to be. That world is unfortunately long gone. Now we need to lock our doors and watch our kids every minute of the day. Guns are not going away, so the best solution in my opinion is to do what it takes to protect our kids. Lock doors at schools during school hours so no one can enter. Have armed security at all main entrances of schools which should be the way to enter a school during school hours. I’m not for arming teachers but in some cases I’m sure this is a good thing. There are many ways to prevent these things from happening without taking away guns.

 

[Enfuego]

I’ll believe a person who survived the ordeal over some news report that has been fabricated. And where did I say it was ok to shoot a federal agent? I agreed it’s wrong, but that’s not how it happened. And the NG is considered a part of the military. I didn’t say anything about active forces. They work for the military. They are considered a reserve military force.

The National Guard can do things for the state they work in active forces can't do. The NG can conduct police type activities in support of local law enforcement. Active duty members can't. NG can deploy only when put on active duty status. But what do I know?

Ok, gotcha. I'm just fabricating what happened now. Got it. It's exactly how it happened but since you already have your mind made up the feds are the boogeyman, you have a different sense of reality.

From 60 Minutes. They must have made it up too I guess:

It all started nearly seven years ago with a February 1993 raid by more than 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. David Koresh and his followers, the Branch Davidians, were known to have a large cache of high-powered weapons. The ATF also suspected that the group had explosives and the parts to manufacture machine guns illegally. When it arrived to search the compound, shooting started almost immediately.

Afterward, four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians were dead. The Federal Bureau of Investigation moved in, and a lengthy standoff ensued. For more than seven frustrating weeks, the FBI tried to persuade the Davidians to come out.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-really-happened-at-waco/

Are you a 9/11 was an inside job guy too?

 

[Acebb]

Yeah, here's the FBI data from 2012-2016. Rifles of all types killed 1,473 people in 4 years.

In a country of over 300 million and there has to be 50 million rifles out there. It is almost silly people are talking about banning rifles.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Honestly, I were a kid in HS I'd rather keep things normal and risk the .0001% chance I get shot.

I'm not trying to feel like I'm in jail for 7 hours a day with security guards walking all over the place. A few teachers packing is fine but some schools look like college campuses, some schools look like prisons. I'd want mine to be like the former, and I do think this effects academic performance.

Just my opinion

 

[wabashwonders]

The National Guard can do things for the state they work in active forces can't do. The NG can conduct police type activities in support of local law enforcement. Active duty members can't. NG can deploy only when put on active duty status. But what do I know?

Ok, gotcha. I'm just fabricating what happened now. Got it. It's exactly how it happened but since you already have your mind made up the feds are the boogeyman, you have a different sense of reality.

From 60 Minutes. They must have made it up too I guess:

It all started nearly seven years ago with a February 1993 raid by more than 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. David Koresh and his followers, the Branch Davidians, were known to have a large cache of high-powered weapons. The ATF also suspected that the group had explosives and the parts to manufacture machine guns illegally. When it arrived to search the compound, shooting started almost immediately.

Afterward, four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians were dead. The Federal Bureau of Investigation moved in, and a lengthy standoff ensued. For more than seven frustrating weeks, the FBI tried to persuade the Davidians to come out.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-really-happened-at-waco/

Are you a 9/11 was an inside job guy too?

You keep posting links to all these “fake news” sites and I’m just supposed to believe it? But I’m not supposed to believe the words of a person who was actually there and saw what happened? You believe what the news tells you, and I’ll believe someone who was there. Your turn. I know you will continue to argue because you are always right.

 

[JustinCruise]

Honestly, I were a kid in HS I'd rather keep things normal and risk the .0001% chance I get shot.

I'm not trying to feel like I'm in jail for 7 hours a day with security guards walking all over the place. A few teachers packing is fine but some schools look like college campuses, some schools look like prisons. I'd want mine to be like the former, and I do think this effects academic performance.

Just my opinion

Tell that to the parents who have lost their children


They would give up everything for a chance to go back and get security in the school


Their kids are dead. Gone. Which means their parents lives are ruined forever. Not sure how you can argue the convenience factor of having to deal with security when the flip side is murdered children.

 

[PatsFan1283]

How much can you really change your life or "protect" yourself in a High School before it doesn't feel like being in an academic setting anymore though?

A big difference between inner-city schools and nice suburban schools is inner-city schools look like prisons. A lot of them look like miserable places to spend 7 hours.

Nice suburban schools look more like college campuses. I'm not saying this is even close to the only thing that effects outcomes of students in these areas but it definitely doesn't help.

To each their own, but I'd rather risk getting shot than have security guards in the halls at all times and go through a metal detector every morning. At some point you gotta just say F it.

 

[JustinCruise]

I have a son.


When he goes to school I would much rather there be security and know he's safe as opposed to him being vulnerable but has less security to deal with.

 

[JustinCruise]

How much can you really change your life or "protect" yourself in a High School before it doesn't feel like being in an academic setting anymore though?

A big difference between inner-city schools and nice suburban schools is inner-city schools look like prisons. A lot of them look like miserable places to spend 7 hours.

Nice suburban schools look more like college campuses. I'm not saying this is even close to the only thing that effects outcomes of students in these areas but it definitely doesn't help.

To each their own, but I'd rather risk getting shot than have security guards in the halls at all times and go through a metal detector every morning. At some point you gotta just say F it.

You just say "F it" when it comes to your kids safety?

I'm going to assume you don't have children pats

 

[wabashwonders]

Honestly, I were a kid in HS I'd rather keep things normal and risk the .0001% chance I get shot.

I'm not trying to feel like I'm in jail for 7 hours a day with security guards walking all over the place. A few teachers packing is fine but some schools look like college campuses, some schools look like prisons. I'd want mine to be like the former, and I do think this effects academic performance.

Just my opinion

Here in my county the schools do just what I said above. All doors are locked during school hours except the main entrance and there is a police officer stationed there at all times. It’s been that way since Sandy Hook. I’m pretty sure all the students feel safe.

 

[PatsFan1283]

You just say "F it" when it comes to your kids safety?

I'm going to assume you don't have children pats

I said when it came to myself I would rather the school not have security all over the place and feel like a prison.

If it is a good area with low crime then the chances it is getting shot up are still pretty low, I wouldn't want to go to school in an environment differently than that.

You can only legislate utopia so much. Armed security at all entrances sounds awful.

 

[wabashwonders]

I said when it came to myself I would rather the school not have security all over the place and feel like a prison.

If it is a good area with low crime then the chances it is getting shot up are still pretty low, I wouldn't want to live in an environment differently than that.

You can only legislate utopia so much.

exactly like the school that got shot up last week. Good area, low crime, in fact I think I read where it was voted one of the safest cities in Florida the previous year. I get your point but sometimes better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Enfuego]

You keep posting links to all these “fake news” sites and I’m just supposed to believe it? But I’m not supposed to believe the words of a person who was actually there and saw what happened? You believe what the news tells you, and I’ll believe someone who was there. Your turn. I know you will continue to argue because you are always right.

You mean the brainwashed Koresh followers? Gotcha. Case closed.

 

[Enfuego]

Tell that to the parents who have lost their children


They would give up everything for a chance to go back and get security in the school


Their kids are dead. Gone. Which means their parents lives are ruined forever. Not sure how you can argue the convenience factor of having to deal with security when the flip side is murdered children.

What is your proposal to better secure schools?

 

[Enfuego]

I have a son.


When he goes to school I would much rather there be security and know he's safe as opposed to him being vulnerable but has less security to deal with.

Your son has a better chance of getting killed by a shark attack then by being shot at school.