WAMUQ -- Your Guide to Early Retirement

[cashgrinder]

kuwl

finally a well written article on this.
ONe question of interpretation..

Why does the FDIC determine the purchase price and not JPM? How can they set an expiration?

I read in JPM report they have a year to adjust price of aquisistion..
COnfusing..

Do you think they push to settle this or want to tie it up in court.
Getting 300b in assets and 1.88b in cash deposits for for 1.88b is the best deal ever. Not to mention that they immediately make 1b a month on this transaction. Every company in the world would sign up for this deal. If they did not have the money they would beg borrow and steal to get this deal.

WE need justice to be served!

Any guess on the timeline? or how you think things will play out....i think friday will come and go with little happening...

 

[AndOne]

yeah if it was a simple FDIC vs. WaMu like that other case i posted yesterday i'd probably give er a go

JPM being in the mix though keeping me away

I'm not one for trying to persuade people (or at least insisting after presenting my opinion once) what to do with their money but it's fairly obvious most of you haven't read the documents thoroughly. While I agree that JPM in the past have been untouchable for the most part it is evident that the current judge has held completely firm against both the FDIC and JPM. Here is a summary of what has transpired recently and there are a few major points.

(Credit to Mary on Yahoo)

Judge Walrath denied the JPM and FDIC motions to stay or dismiss the adversary proceedings. Basically, JPM and the FDIC are now desperately trying to get Judge Sleet in U. S. District Court to override Judge Walrath in Bankruptcy Court. There's a fundamental issue at stake here. The FDIC was appointed to be the receiver of WaMu bank assets which they immediately sold to JPM. Now Judge Walrath is going to determine in Bankruptcy Court what the assets of the WAMUQ estate are and has refused to stay the related adversary proceedings. The problem for the FDIC is that they apparently "sold" some assets to JPM that were actually assets of WAMUQ and therefore not subject to the FDIC's receivership. The FDIC didn't make any effort to determine if assets belonged to WAMUQ or WaMu and now the bankruptcy court is going to make the determination for them. Any assets that can be shown to belong to the WAMUQ estate (such as the $4 billion) were fraudulently conveyed to JPM and will be ordered to be returned by the bankruptcy court. This is standard procedure in bankruptcy cases. Interestingly, there was an asset schedule referenced in the Purchase and Sale Agreement but it was omitted from the final document (the 'scrivenor's error). Obviously, JPM and the FDIC don't want that to happen. JPM wants to hang on to as much of their booty as possible and the FDIC wants to avoid an embarrassing recovery of what they 'sold' to JPM as well as establish some sort of precedent that FDIC actions should never be subject to bankruptcy court review. As you might have heard Mr. Marsal (CEO of Lehman) state in his CNBC interview recently, there is essentially no due process at present. So the fundamental issue is 'Does the FDIC have to account to the bankruptcy court for the actions they have taken with respect to assets of the debtor's estate or are they shielded by FIRREA?' Judge Walrath is on VERY solid ground here. Even if the FDIC (and JPM) were to somehow obtain a favorable ruling from Judge Sleet, such a ruling would ultimately be found to be unconstitutional. However, there is essentially zero chance that Judge Sleet will rule in JPM or the FDIC's favor. The proceedings in bankruptcy court will not be affected by this and will continue unabated so this is just a sideshow that represents a desperate effort by JPM and the FDIC to avoid judgment. The worst thing about this is that the FDIC is participating because it shows just how compromised they have become and it is embarassing to the United States.


The reason that Kuwlness and others are so optimistic about the commons is that the preferreds ONLY need less then $5B to make whole. Like I've said before multiple times there are too many powerful people on the wrong side here for the government/JPM to get rid of this quietly unless they make restitution. They have two choices - 1) settle and avoid the public humiliation or 2) Fight in court and more then likely lose. Based on the documents I've read, the way the current judge has ruled so far, the lack of legal ground JPM/FDIC have at the moment, and the fact that any favorable appeals would likely be overturned leads me to believe this is better then a gamble. Obviously nothing in life is a guarantee but this looks good enough to me to hold my attention. Again my personal opinion is that JPM settles. They offer a stock swap (somewhere between 4:1-3:1) and FDIC sends cash to JPM for their part. Now a key point is, and I don't think Kuwlness has mentioned this, even if JPM and WAMU came to a settlement agreement Judge Walrath doesn't have to approve it. If she feels that the offer is not fair from JPM it isn't a done deal.

 

[kuwlness]

Do you think they push to settle this or want to tie it up in court.
Getting 300b in assets and 1.88b in cash deposits for for 1.88b is the best deal ever. Not to mention that they immediately make 1b a month on this transaction. Every company in the world would sign up for this deal. If they did not have the money they would beg borrow and steal to get this deal.

WE need justice to be served!

Any guess on the timeline? or how you think things will play out....i think friday will come and go with little happening...

I highly doubt this will be settled on Friday; although, there is a lot of different happenings that can occur on Friday, and going forward, that will likely boost WAMUQ's PPS. There could be a ruling on the $4B. Regardless of major announcements, any additional positive developments (and so far, they've already got a trophy case) will add value to this stock. And with the WAMPQs and WAMKQs both in an up-trend, I think the overall movement of the stock will continue to propel upward.


My projected timeframe for settlement ranges by the developments in the case. Right now I'm looking for closure around the middle of October, but it could possibly get drug-out into November/December ... who knows!? Like I've said before, though, WAMUQ is a lottery ticket you want to own regardless of how long this takes to play out.

 

[AndOne]

I forgot to add FWIW that my feeling on the timeline would be in the Nov '09 - Jan '10 timeframe. It's my belief that once JPM has exhausted their options as far as appeals, etc., they will want absolutely no part in having this go to trial and risking not only this getting out to the masses but having to make a much larger payout. I also suspect the settlement will have to be at least 4:1 for Judge Walrath to approve based on the assets that have been shown to WAMU.

 

[kuwlness]

even if JPM and WAMU came to a settlement agreement Judge Walrath doesn't have to approve it. If she feels that the offer is not fair from JPM it isn't a done deal.

Dizzam! Very well thought-out AndOne. And you're exactly right, I'm glad you have seen the light, lol. The potential for settlement in this case, and you're odds of "winning" are as good as you can get, anywhere! I don't see how any of this can just be forgotten/ignored/forgiven when all the banks got a major lifeline from the US taxpayers. This is too big of a case IMO and their is plenty of evidence to back this all up.


I'm not here to convert you into believers, just presenting you with the facts. And in Court, facts, testimonies, and evidence are what win you cases ... and in this unique situation, it can "win" you a lot of money. Cant win a bet you dont make. GLTA

 

[UltF]

I kind of want to go to one of these hearings or trials and get an idea of the attitudes and whether there is any coverage or how many reporters in the crowd. Maybe even ask a wmi lawyer if wamuq stock is actually affected by the happenings or if this could drag on for decades. Does anyone know if these are open to public? Kuwlness, have you talked to anyone that has been or is planning to go? If it's worth a few thousand dollars gambling money, its almost worth spending $600 or so on a flight etc to see what its real potential is.

Thanks for sharing all your hard work! I keep hoping wikileaks puts out emails between JD and Bair one day haha.

 

[brembo]

Is anyone else entertained by people complaining about MMs keeping this stock down and avoiding another skyrocket?

I'm ENCOURAGING that they do this. This allows us to buy more at a lower price!! The only people losing out here are people that are not keeping this long. If you're going long on WAMUQ (which I know I am), you should be quite content with a steady and low ask.

 

[OnWisconsin]

kewlness, if i wanna play this for a momemtum trade, when's a good time to come in? i know it was getting solid support at .25, but i really thought she would move up today. i was a mole hair from buying at the open, good thing i didn't. i thought volume would be way up considering the big day tomorrow was supposed to be....

 

[kuwlness]

I dont mind the MM manipulation for the same reason Brembo mentioned above. They're clearly trying to shake out shares so they can cover their shorts.


Soonerdawg, as for Momentum, it's tough right now to say. I'd say .255 would be the buy-in point for me, but it might not get that low today.


There's speculation today that there's going to be more delays in the trial and this is the reason for the sharp drop-off in PPS. Like I've said before, short-term PPS fluctuation is something I cant explain nor do i really care about. There's a likelihood this will run into the .30s late today or tomorrow, but that's just speculation. Then again, we all invest based off of speculation with the assumption the price will go up so we can sell it at a gain. So, soonerdawg, I'd say look to add around the mid .25s if you can; otherwise, use your judgment : )

 

[kuwlness]

Shake Shake Shake ... shake those shares out of the weak hands. Almost fun to watch -- other than your portfolio shrinking, lol. These last few days have been a rollercoaster ride for me. Hold tight, dont let the MMs cover their shorts with your shares.

 

[OnWisconsin]

nice call kewl....it hit .255 and jumped right back to .275

 

[brembo]

I just brought down my average PPS I'm a happy man right now. I have all of the money that I'm comfortable with "risking" in play right now. The popcorn will be done in about 30 seconds... @)

 

[TexasBrit]

Following right along

Okay guys, I have been following right along with you all. some great info coming out consistently and I have been in WAMU, now WAMUQ before the FDIC had it's field day a year ago. I am in at $1.78 pps, so we have some ways to go before I start jumping. 19k shares and adding.

Did anyone catch this piece on google from last night?

By PEG BRICKLEY
Of DOW JONES DAILY BANKRUPTCY REVIEW

WILMINGTON, Del. -- A U.S. bankruptcy judge has authorized the former
parent of failed savings and loan Washington Mutual Bank, or WaMu, to
quiz JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) over suspicions that JPMorgan Chase
engineered the biggest banking collapse in U.S. history.

Judge Mary F. Walrath gave the green light to a special bankruptcy
probe into JPMorgan's role in the events leading to WaMu's seizure by
regulators in September 2008.

The probe will track claims made in a Texas lawsuit in which investors
allege JPMorgan, "which had long coveted [WaMu's] depositor base and
branch network, drove down [WaMu's] value so it could purchase
[WaMu's] assets at a fire-sale price," Walrath said in an opinion
filed Wednesday with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Wilmington, Del.

WaMu's parent said allegations of business wrongs that contributed to
the thrift's seizure, if true, would give rise to "highly valuable"
claims against JPMorgan.

 

[TexasBrit]

This from Kodama on google

13 Q. And what -- are there any
14 account opening documents for that
15 account that you're aware of?
16 A. Yes, the policy states that
17 there is a new account request form that
18 needs to be completed and that's the form
19 that we used to open the bank account.
20 Q. And that's an accounting form,
21 that's a treasury department form?
22 A. No, that's not a treasury
23 form.
24 Q. Whose form is that?
25 A. It's the back office branch in
(Page 72)
2 the retail banking division. In order to
3 open what we refer to as an "On-us" DDA
4 account, that was the form.
5 Q. Is there any account agreement
6 for that account?
7 A. Not for an internal DDA
8 account, no.
9 Q. And what document sets forth
10 -- you're familiar with an account
11 agreement of the type that would be
12 signed by a third party depositor, are
13 you not?
14 A. I am.
15 Q. And I take that it there is no
16 similar document that is executed in
17 connection with an internal account?
18 A. That is not -- that is
19 correct. Those forms are not required.

Good questioning and in the right direction

 

[kuwlness]

This from Kodama on google

13 Q. And what -- are there any
14 account opening documents for that
15 account that you're aware of?
16 A. Yes, the policy states that
17 there is a new account request form that
18 needs to be completed and that's the form
19 that we used to open the bank account.

Good questioning and in the right direction

Is that from the Doreen Logan disposition?

 

[AndOne]

Is that from the Doreen Logan disposition?

Yes it is. Here's something else very interesting.

Credit to *Catz from Yahoo


http://www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/...



Check out PDF p71-72


the attorney from Quinn (MR. ABENSOHN) - "It is our understanding today that the deposition will be subject to the terms of the confidentiality agreement currently being worked out as between debtors and JPMorgan. And it will be subject to its terms and it will remain confidential certainly for 30 days following the completion of the transcript and then subject to possible further confidentiality going forward based on the provisions of that agreement which is yet to be worked out. "


JPMC's MR. SACKS: "That's correct. And I just think there are a number of other people here today who are not technically parties to this adversary proceeding and I think everybody ought to know that this transcript will be designated as confidential pursuant to that, and since it is not public, we, everybody should know, particularly people who represent people who are actively trading in public debt and the like that we regard this as material nonpublic information and they should act accordingly with respect to that."


This was on Aug 26 FYI.

 

[AndOne]

Here is a summary from Mary @ Yahoo on what to expect tomorrow in the hearing.


Tommorrow's hearing should be very short. There is almost nothing contested on the agenda. The single interesting item is the No. 9 Additional Item "Notice of Divestiture of Jurisdiction Pending Appeals" which was requested by JPM. What is especially interesting about this is that JPM is not actually asking the court to do anything. What they are asking is for the court to NOT do something, specifically not proceed with the adversary proceedings which would, in its effect, be a stay pending their 'appeal.' The JPM adversary proceeding is in the discovery stage in which documents have been requested and the parties are in the process of supplying the other side with the requested items. However, JPM has not requested any relief from the court on that discovery. The other adversary proceeding is the 'turnover' one (the $4 billion) and the outstanding item in that is WAMUQ's motion for summary judgement which has been thoroughly briefed and appears to have a good chance of succeeding. So...what JPM is really asking is for Judge Walrath to not issue a ruling on the turnover action and tommorrow we are going to hear the court's response to that...live. Should be interesting!

 

[kuwlness]

Here is a summary from Mary @ Yahoo on what to expect tomorrow in the hearing.

I was reading that deposition last night. Didnt realize it was published since it was supposed to be confidential for at least 30 days. Kinda crazy how that one either slipped thru the cracks, or was released because of an imminent settlement. No one knows for sure, but it was interesting to skim thru, especially the confidentiality quotes you mentioned.


Regardless, tomorrow's hearing will likely be short, but I'm hoping some of the main arguments get addressed -- the delays by JPM, the $4B in deposits, and Discovery. Tomorrow will tell a new story hopefully, or at least give the longs something to grasp for. I've only been in since early August and I feel like it's been forever ... imagine those people that have been holding since last year or right around the time of seizure, they must really be going crazy. I'm holding until the end either way, but I dont see how JPM can drag their feet much longer as the creditors were part of Logan's deposition so they know there's money that belongs to them somewhere in this mess.

 

[OnWisconsin]

all right, i'm coming in for 15,000 shares, hope to see it get some kind of speculative bounce tomorrow. not gonna hang out too long though if she dips below a quarter.

.2733

 

[kuwlness]

New PACER Docs

PACER - Appeals Debtors Response to JPM Divestiture Of Jurisdiction

http://www.ghostofwamu.com/documents/09-50934/09-50934-0170.pdf


"Posted by: mordicai Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:30:40 PM
In reply to: uzualsuzpect who wrote msg# 101563 Post # of 101581

If you read the response, it is evident that as I suspected there will be no hearing on the 4 billion summary judgment until after walrath has ruled on the divestiture notice. I am certain she will keep jurisdiction of the case, but the summary judgment will not and cannot be ruled on tomorrow since it hasn't been added to the agenda. All the parties must be properly noticed days ahead (unless consents are obtained which ain't going to happen with JPM). So don't expect much out of tomorrow's hearing. We have to wait until discovery deadlines are in Dimon's face, and after Sleet has turned down leave to appeal, before we can expect a settlement. All jmho. "