Sportsbook stories from the 90's. From degenrate to mature degenrate.

[dougstewart]

Fascinating thread...as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle between what Sugarbear/ScottyS and Dr. Know it all are saying. "Stealing" is probably too strong a word to describe the activities of the sportsbook managers in the 80's; their giving preferential numbers to friends/runners was not illegal, at the time, but it was certainly unethical in the sense that if they worked for a casino sportsbook, they were ethically obligated to try to make the most profit for that casino sportsbook, not try to make money for themselves by scalping their own sportsbook.

 

[Sugarbear]

Fascinating thread...as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle between what Sugarbear/ScottyS and Dr. Know it all are saying. "Stealing" is probably too strong a word to describe the activities of the sportsbook managers in the 80's; their giving preferential numbers to friends/runners was not illegal, at the time, but it was certainly unethical in the sense that if they worked for a casino sportsbook, they were ethically obligated to try to make the most profit for that casino sportsbook, not try to make money for themselves by scalping their own sportsbook.

Very well said. Thank you.

The truth is, we are all right, very much like today. It depends on what side of the coin you are on or how you want to see it.


The words in bold is what it came down to internally. I can assure you.
Nothing more nothing less.


In Scotts model both sides of the counter were friends and did things together after work, so to speak.


In the modern day model, we are not your friends, just friendly. We dont hang out with you, nor do we want to.


We are here to strip you of your money as fast as possible to be able provide for us and ours, just like you are trying to take it away from us, just as fast, to provide for you and yours.



We are not friends, its not personel, its just buisness.

 

[Fishhead]

Fascinating thread...as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle between what Sugarbear/ScottyS and Dr. Know it all are saying. "Stealing" is probably too strong a word to describe the activities of the sportsbook managers in the 80's; their giving preferential numbers to friends/runners was not illegal, at the time, but it was certainly unethical in the sense that if they worked for a casino sportsbook, they were ethically obligated to try to make the most profit for that casino sportsbook, not try to make money for themselves by scalping their own sportsbook.

This sort of thing happened well into the 90's too let me assure you........as well as it does today too.

 

[scott]

doug stewart,
We had outs at the Stardust (with managements blessing) who sat in the sportsbook and enabled us to get off #s we couldn't use. i.e. some guys got prefential treatment because they were with us everyday and got us out of mini jams. Sometimes, when we were in trouble with a game, would give them first shot at a #, a change, before we put it on the board. They made money getting good #s and we made money because we could get off #s we couldn't use. In another setting it would be called laying off. It was a business decision, transparent, in full view of management. Every one of these strange #s was recorded and ready for review by management if they so desired.

I'm only speaking for myself and this particular store doug, not a blanket coverage of the entire city.

 

[Fishhead]

doug stewart,
We had outs at the Stardust (with managements blessing) who sat in the sportsbook and enabled us to get off #s we couldn't use. i.e. some guys got prefential treatment because they were with us everyday and got us out of mini jams. Sometimes, when we were in trouble with a game, would give them first shot at a #, a change, before we put it on the board. They made money getting good #s and we made money because we could get off #s we couldn't use. In another setting it would be called laying off. It was a business decision, transparent, in full view of management. Every one of these strange #s was recorded and ready for review by management if they so desired.

I'm only speaking for myself and this particular store doug, not a blanket coverage of the entire city.

I (and others) were often given better numbers by staff from NUMEROUS sportsbooks around town.

Many HIGH PROFILE gamblers were given better numbers across the board on 90% of games on the board.

 

[valium]

I (and others) were often given better numbers by staff from NUMEROUS sportsbooks around town.

Many HIGH PROFILE gamblers were given better numbers across the board on 90% of games on the board.

Oh Fish, i am sure there is so much more you could tell us about this subject. am i right??

 

[dougstewart]

doug stewart,
We had outs at the Stardust (with managements blessing) who sat in the sportsbook and enabled us to get off #s we couldn't use. i.e. some guys got prefential treatment because they were with us everyday and got us out of mini jams. Sometimes, when we were in trouble with a game, would give them first shot at a #, a change, before we put it on the board. They made money getting good #s and we made money because we could get off #s we couldn't use. In another setting it would be called laying off. It was a business decision, transparent, in full view of management. Every one of these strange #s was recorded and ready for review by management if they so desired.

I'm only speaking for myself and this particular store doug, not a blanket coverage of the entire city.

ScottyS,
I'm not the one making these accusations, I'm just trying to interpret them fairly. The poster, Dr. Know it all, said in post #91...

When you move a number (odds) and you do it when your bettor is standing in line so that nobody else can get the number except him. That's stealing and that's what happened at the Stardust during your watch. You might not have done it yourself, but you knew it was happening.

When a sports book gives a bettor 10 tickets in baseball worth 5 dimes that are 15 to 20 cents off what everybody else is using at the time. That's stealing!

...Now I don't even pretend to have your knowledge of bookmaking but how I interpret what Dr. Know it all says is that you gave favorable numbers to your friends/good customers so that they could scalp the game somewhere else...in other words, they couldn't lose that way and they probably paid you in some way for the preferential treatment.

Now you say you were laying off bets, but I don't understand how you giving some friend/good customer a favorable line of say 15 to 20 cents, like Dr. know it all alleges, is laying off the bet. All you had to do was move the line, say 5 to 10 cents and the public would lay off the bet for you. That's the part that is unethical, Scotty. But perhaps I don't fully understand this and I am hesitant to accuse you of anything since I always had the highest respect for you, so I await your further clarification.

 

[Fishhead]

Oh Fish, i am sure there is so much more you could tell us about this subject. am i right??

Yes, but not in this forum..........or any other.

 

[valium]

Yes, but not in this forum..........or any other.

Thank You for the reply. i just cashed at -1200 on your answer. LOL

 

[Frog1]

Sugarbear, again I thank you for taking the time to continue this thread. It is a great read and for those of us who aren't now and never were on the inside it is fascinating. Please continue as you have time.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Doug Stewert the baseball tickets and laying -110 when everyone else opened the game -120 and it already has moved to -130 didn't happen at the Stardust. This was another Casino and that was outright stealing. No question about it.

The Stardust and Scotty can spin their story anyway they want, but as a bettor and bookmaker for over 30 years I saw what I saw and know what I know.

My point is to let people know that what happened in Las Vegas to the sports books was 100% the fault of the book managers who the owners of the Casinos themselves were convinced that they had been cheated by these sports book managers. That was the reason giving by a well known Casino owner. I didn't say that!

I could tell you alot more about this and more examples of how they stole from the books by why would I?

The important part is that you understand that no one who worked for the sports books were really that important in any history of Las Vegas. They destroyed the betting scene with their theivery.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Also sugarbear how did a moron like Robert Walker get his job? He knows nothing about bookmaking.

And how did he convince anyone to believe that avoiding bets make you more money? How did that happen?

I told you why. They just didn't want to be cheated by their sports book managers again and this goody 2 shoes Robert Walker gives them a sales job "for the ages" and they love him even though it's hard to guess how much money the Mirage group HAS NOT WON because of his avoiding bets management model.

The Owners of the MGM/Mirage have no Idea how much money this man has cost them and they keep paying him for it.

Big money isn't always smart money!

 

[dougstewart]

Doug Stewert the baseball tickets and laying -110 when everyone else opened the game -120 and it already has moved to -130 didn't happen at the Stardust. This was another Casino and that was outright stealing. No question about it.

The Stardust and Scotty can spin their story anyway they want, but as a bettor and bookmaker for over 30 years I saw what I saw and know what I know.

My point is to let people know that what happened in Las Vegas to the sports books was 100% the fault of the book managers who the owners of the Casinos themselves were convinced that they had been cheated by these sports book managers. That was the reason giving by a well known Casino owner. I didn't say that!

I could tell you alot more about this and more examples of how they stole from the books by why would I?

The important part is that you understand that no one who worked for the sports books were really that important in any history of Las Vegas. They destroyed the betting scene with their theivery.

Well, I'm glad we had this discussion then because from your post #91, it is implied that ScottyS from the Stardust was the guilty party. I'm glad you added that disclaimer in your later post!

 

[Sugarbear]

The Demise was not a Demise. Nobody went anywhere.

Yes, but not in this forum..........or any other.

In fact Valium, he does. I will vouch for him. Please read my side by side historical compasion from this time to that one. Regulation 6A was the law of the time that was going to make those guys go away ( just like the banking law signed today is supposed to do in fact), you can easily see, IT DID NOT STOP ANYONE.


Is there preferntial treatment? Hell Yeah. What do you think the Stardust lottery is? All thought it was for sharps only, but in reality, anybody could get in, as long as you played by the rules.


The lottery gives the sharps first crack at the fresh numbers, before you the next person in line after the lottery can bet them. For over 20 years now.


Same thing goes on in "real private houses" in this country everyday as well as offshore. The numbers are bad the instant they come out, no matter what you think otherwise. You, the player, will never get an edge.

We see plenty of takers. There are no problems we can see. Better still, those that complain, still bet and lose like everyone else.


Thats how buisness is done. Always has been, always will be.

You dont like how things really are, LEAVE. We wont miss you.





The rest stick around like always and continue to make easy money.

Sure you have to work a little harder, faster, longer, as well as settle for smaller margins, but the MONEY IS THERE.

Many do it everyday without a complaint. Just quietly reading the market and trying there best to rake there 5 percent, just like us back here.


Simple.

 

[Sugarbear]

A side by side historical perspective. Read very carefully.

Thanks Coach. I did not realize I was putting a face on things till you said that. Memeories have been sparked of that time period and we are in the time that matches the darkest days of the crusade of the late 90's. However on the other hand what is really happening is what happened in 89 after they had passed RICO and were organized enough to go after the big fish upstairs in the Casino even though history currently makes it look like they went after Scotty Schettler and the Stardust. To a degree they did but he was just one big fish in a big net of much much bigger fishes.



The Boyds were backed by the Feds who had agents inside and on every corner watcing everything from like 87-92 and steady cleaning up everything before fading away. Everybody became to be pushed/shoved in the end in the Stardust because it was the last old school place left as the first stages of the corparate consolidation simply bought the old places and either closed them or rebuilt with new managmnet in place and a lot of old timers were left disenfranchised. The other not so old were left hanging and with decisions to make.



Scottys greatest sin, even though it was not a sin back then, was the fact people gambled on games, it was widely accepted, as well as no one cared. He was popular and made sportsbetting popular in just the way Americans love to percieve it which made playing Jr Wiseguy all that much more FUN.


Now there was stuff going on in the book that have given rise to some regulations in the industry today because what happened in those days at the Dust is the model they use in training so there is duplicity on the entire instituons behalf who did nothing to stop it as well as never stopped there ways to the very end. Much like what is happening offshore right now.


He was simply to popular. Nothing more, nothing less, I will add.


Whats happening with BoS now is the same things that happened when they first started unsealing RICO indictmnets against true top tier underworld types here. Problem is no one knows any of the peoples names who were being arrested. However they did know Scottys name as he ran Americas No. One race and sports book as well as put out Americas line. While they were not going after him at all or was he ever investigated he was made to look like the leader of it all from his position as director of the race and sportsbook and blamed for it all in the end. This resulted in him being black balled in Vegas. He in no way shape and form deserved that fate and many are still angry about it to this day. No one man can do all that he was blamed for by himself. He walked a free man in the end like many with what ever he had. Is that what happens to be people who pull off stuff for years on end like what happened in the movie casino which is what in general everyone thinks is what drove the bookie side of the Vegas Old Guard away?


What eventually brought down the the vegas old guard happned much earlier in 1983 while the very first stages of consolidation were just starting to really buy the old places and make things more corprate and that was the invention of the IBM series 1 or what commonly became to be known as CBS. This was a computer program developed by Jim Feists engineer Javeed Buntar who worked for NSS at the time. Now in a partnership with Javeed Buntar and Vic Salerno, Jim tried to bring it to market to see if a computer program could help run a race and sportsbook.
Scotty Schettler broke his back to convince the owners of the Dust at the time to bring it in which they did. This changed everything overnight.


The first versions were not very good as doing things by hand was still faster but what it did as it spread was synchronize books adminstrative work and what used to take overnight to do (like grading tickets) only took 5 minutes now. Many people last there jobs overnight when this happened but history shows they were the lucky ones as most landed on there feet quite nicely and were well esconed in there seats when the kickers to the CBS computers came along and put people out of there careers but did give rise to new ones with many of those people taking them still behind the scenes here today 17-20 years later.


Now the computer at first caught on slowly and while some books used it the outrageous middles the VOG were used to were still there albieght a point or two less as slow or not the numbers kind started sorta being around each other instead of grossly diffrent across the street just the 2 years before. (Its now 85.)


Now the 2 big things that kicked the CBS computers into high use was 1. The lowering of the federal excise tax kown as FET. In Nevada till about 85 the books had to pay a 10 percent tax on all sports wagers which was passed to the player. If you made a 2 dollar horse bet you had to pay 2.20 on a hundred dollar to win bet it was 121-100. Can you imagine?
How did the wise survive? The horror. It was lowered to one quarter of one percent which was absorbed by the books. Right after it passed a ton of new books opened up in these newly corparated places providing jobs for really at one point to anyone who wanted to start crossing over and doing things the news ways in a regulated world no matter how many new things come up. It was only 85 but the handwriting was on the wall much like it was in 2004 in your history. Some people stayed but many left in those begining times of the computer era we now live in.

The second thing was the advent of sports signal which gave all the books at the same time a look at the lines from the other places. All the new places of course had the IBM 1 mainframe with the CBS program on it so adjusting numbers and trying to not get buried booking was a little easier.

Contrary to popular belief the bookies running the new places were really just the next group of ticket writers who graduated to supervisor under the greats themselves and continued to grow right along with the industry. They knew what they were doing when it came to bookmaking and the learned thru there training classes how to book in the corprate world and the ways to run the book.

Thats the big difference between many in power here today and there mentors. Its not there book to run. They have to work with in what ever the people upstiars tell them. In the old days it was the bookies book to do with as he wanted without question.


Once sports signal took full hold by 87 most of the VOG old guard started to fade away voluntarily so to speak. You are talking about guys going back to the late 50's on whom for years literaly walked, biked or drove across the street for dramatically different numbers and they employeed an army to do so in order to catch those middles and scalps. Even bottom and middle feeders without the big guys resources made a nice living on these middles and scalps. It was gravy for all on both sides.


Sports signal brought all that to an end as the gap on the numbers closed big time so many simply faded into the background or flat retired as there money was made and all was takin care of. The younger guys however were in trouble and many of the bottom and middle feeders did not survive. There were to many places and to much new blood compettion to compete for such small margins.



Once consolidation really took hold by 89 they were mostly gone and the true hard core vegas old guard was what was left to gather at the dust in those ending days of there era they were in. At the time they would have been an average age of about 37-40 when I say that. They now sit at median 58-62 and are now the elders of the society whom have lived thru what we are right now at least 3 full times as an adult with solid memeories from there childhood to boot.


With there on the strip outs down to a precious few and new places popping up all over the place making it clear that neafarious types were not welcomed the VOG had no place to go.

Worse still while not criminals they were looked upon as such when they tried to find jobs and the like and were treated as such. Many got into bad situations quickly as it is how it goes in our society and started to kill themselves over the crumbs that were left on the floor so to speak. This thinned out the VOG even more.


Please note during all this the Feds were doing the same old thing in Vegas in chasing the mob out. They made there threats etc but all in all the things that shut down the VOG were happening on its own course without any help from the Feds just like it is today.


The BoS arrest is like RICO before it. Its the hammer that breaks up the status quo and eventually makes things better for all. (Things were safer and seen in a clean light by 94, 5 years after the Vegas Rico charges) In both cases natural implosions were underway as there was simply to much to handle and the money attracted to much attention. But the killer is those responsible for it being there could no longer manage it. It had gotten to big. Just like what is going on out there right now, all the while the corps are advancing and quietly taking over.


RICO broke up much and brought tremendous buying oppurtunitys to the table for those willing to play the game. Much like what will happen shortly out there. RICO and the BoS arrest were not needed in either case becasue the factors that cause these types of collapses were long in place and in practice. It just helps.


The Feds have never really been needed. In the end all there efforts have done is spurr inovation and make an industry grow to a 12 billion dollar one that was born because some people in NY had a problem with people betting on games and so chased the bookies out of state to Nevada and onto an island eventually where the US is still trying to shut it all down to no avail.

History is just simply repeating itself.

 

[Sugarbear]

Side by Side historical perspective. Part 2. Read carefully.

INSIDEMAN]Chester.......You must have been taking a small pop from us......Because we were the first to get the plays....We hit the big guys first.......But then again we would buy back the overage from the guys who either moved too fast or too much........Often this would lead to not knowing what side we were really playing or whether or not we were just playing "numbers" and earning the commish..


You were just playing numbers and earning the commish.

I would not know you but I am sure I know people who do as there were plenty of people from the "Office" at the Dust in my days. Do you know Preston?



Contrary to popular belief everybody the demise is not the demise everyone thinks of it as. Now while I have shown many left on there own and more were forced out, the strong groups never went anywhere. They instead did what true wise guys do and simply adjusted to the new ways.


Now they didn't like it to much because they had to do say three loads of laundry to get down on a certain number and it took 10-15 minutes in the way numbers move back and forth but they did get down for what they wanted in the end.

In the old days it was a one shot deal. What pisses the VOG off is there expenses grew in the crackdown days as some did rain it in but in turn had to employee more people to get down on anything in the first place. As the books became more so did there expenses but they stayed anyway and just bet more to make up for it. The "Offices" never closed at any time for the strong ones and they continued to do in the open what they had always done in the open.


The only difference in the end was that the amounts they played for after a certain threshold was crossed got recorded on paper. That is all regulation is in the end. Recording on paper the transactions of the day so the goverment can stick its nose in and keep an eye on you.


Dont believe it for a second. They felt three things would come of what is called regulation 6A. One the wise would flee because they did not want there name on stuff once they passed 10,000 dollars in bets. WRONG.


There had always been runners and so now there were more. So now instead of dropping 20 G's on a game at one place they bet 7 3 dimes bets all over the place and kept on stepping. They didn't like it but save for Billy Walters and Baxter they were left alone. When is the last time you heard anything about them really? Not a tax evasion case of note or more correctly an attempt to has ever been bought against anyone who is a pro bettor or anyone who had crews out there. (Maybe Artie and Co but a lot of charges before taxes were MUCH bigger problems)


2. They felt the scaled down amounts were to small for the wise to deal with so they would just have to go back to the streets to get down what they want. WRONG. One, never did they leave the streets and were getting down there the whole time eyes were on the strip.

Two see above. They just adjusted folks. They felt the combined two would not make it worth the different syndicates time and that they would be to lazy to work within those restrictions and just go back to the streets and dissappear. Which is what they wanted. The Feds dont want to lock people up they just want them to be invisible and quiet about things that are not approved for them to do. Does this sound familair?


Please note it is the True Old Guards fault this suppression thing came about in the first place. They never checked themselves and as the years went on and the Feds got closer they just became more brazen. There is a reason why the feds dont take taunting from us. After we won a landmark decision in the supreme court in 1973 the wise in this country in a picture gave the Feds the finger for 14 years straight until RICO was passed. The Vegas Old Guard openly laughed at them for years as they watched at Little Ceasers the Dust and other places make there bets and conducted buisness as ususal. The Feds could do nothing as no real laws were broken directly in front of them and there were no laws for what they did't like them doing to arrest them on. What they could arrest them on was like a badge of honor for whomever and in the 70's arrest made the news and made Vegas that more of an attraction to come to.


There was a time for a long time that people came to Vegas for 2 things. The all you can eat buffet and they hoped to see some underworld criminal types walking around. To the Vegas Old Guards great credit they gave them what they wanted. When the tourist came to town they played nice with them and never did they feel threatened or like they were not going to get paid. They kept the bad stuff in the back of the house and as an instituion played there part to keep the mystique going and continue to make there money. That and people did come to see them and rub elbows for a minute or two with them. In there minds it was the least they could do to make the customer happy.


As hardcore as they were and the things they could have done to people, it was no big deal to them because it was simply good for buisness and the best thing to do for there community.


The greatest single tradgedy of the internet offshore world the true old guard birthed is the fact that the offshore places in the 10 year history have flagrant disregard and direspect for there customer which 90 percent take for granted and in no way really care to do whats best for the community or at least do what it takes to keep our customer base feeling safe and wanting to spend with us. If nothing else the last thing should be tatamount and its not.


Its quietly killing them everybody and one of the principal reasons you dont hear from them half as much as you should. Double so in times like these. They are watching a lifetimes worth of work, running away and saccrifice go right down the drain. All over greed in the end. Plain ole simple greed.


Not that they weren't but they controlled it and thats the key.



3. They thought they would dissappear in greater numbers than they did here from the strip. WRONG. In truth they never went anywhere
Scotty Schettler is the one who left. In the end his being blackballed allowed many on both sides of the counter to walk away with there good name, reputations and for those who quite couldn't they did have a chance to clean up and either move into the background or get a job and try to survive. As long as he was around the others were in limbo. Even after those who retired in the late 80's or dissapreaed by 91 there was still a large crowd left and while the Feds were dismayed the rest did not fold there tent up they were left alone because the guy who made betting on sports cool and fun was gone.


Do you see how it started and why that became the Fed policy? Keep a low pro and you are good to go.


The problem with the suppresion/hide angle is that it is being driven by the same people whom were watching Vegas in the 70's. Those agents are median 58-62 today and are now the BIG BOSSES and have never forgotten the fuck yous go get a real job you sorry sons of bitches why dont you leave us alone talk they endured. Many of them they chased and watched are out on the islands right now doing the same things as always, making more money than ever and knowing that even though they live in third world countries they got away with all. Meanwhile there opposite numbers are still a few years from retirment and there nice pensions for chasing sportsbettors around the globe. I hope it was worth it.


Until they retire and or the true old guard effectivly dies its how its going to be. In the end its personal and they are using there disiples to make sure it stays that way.


I did not know all that was coming out but if you loop my last 3 stories together with this one you can roughly see how we got to this point today.

Does everybosy see what I am saying?

 

[dougstewart]

"Does everybosy see what I am saying?"

I'm waiting for the movie...I'm too old and slow to read all that!

 

[Sugarbear]

"Does everybosy see what I am saying?"

I'm waiting for the movie...I'm too old and slow to read all that!

Take your time, beause it will be in the book, sooner or later.

 

[dougstewart]

Take your time, beause it will be in the book, sooner or later.

I will be happy to proofread for spelling and grammar.

 

[PatrickMcIrish]

SugarBear - I have no apology for anyone, I have no reason to apologize for anything, nor would I ever seek one from anybody. I am coming to Vegas for a minimum of 3 weeks in February, probably longer to get this project started out on that end that me and a friend are in the middle of. I will be working but would love to buy you dinner one night if available.

Again, thanks for the thread, these are the kind of things that make the site so interesting to me ---> that being individuals like yourself who are so willing to share with others some of their past. Props, keep fighting the good fight.