"I am an American, and unlike many of your ilk, I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave it" theory when it comes to this country. I will focus my efforts on the United States, thank you very much. It is a democracy and change is always possible in a democracy."
I am not quite sure what you mean by 'My Ilk' but you didnt answer my question. The question is WHY? Why would you focus your efforts on changing a country. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that suit your needs, that you would be happy in without going through a massive struggle. Do you enjoy punishing yourself and living in fear? I feel this is a valid question. Please answer the question.
"This is how things started in Germany.. a (reasonbly legitimate) election then the invasions of privacy. Just because the Patroit act is a bit more politically correct than something spewed from Hitler's mouth does not make it any less damaging."
If the only difference you can find between Hitler and Nazi Germany with the Patriot Act is P.C., then thats the end of any reasonable discussion I can have with you. When you reach that stage, there is no more room point in discussing this matter. When you join us back in reality, please let me know and we can continue.
I am not quite sure what you mean by 'My Ilk' but you didnt answer my question. The question is WHY? Why would you focus your efforts on changing a country. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that suit your needs, that you would be happy in without going through a massive struggle. Do you enjoy punishing yourself and living in fear? I feel this is a valid question. Please answer the question.
"This is how things started in Germany.. a (reasonbly legitimate) election then the invasions of privacy. Just because the Patroit act is a bit more politically correct than something spewed from Hitler's mouth does not make it any less damaging."
If the only difference you can find between Hitler and Nazi Germany with the Patriot Act is P.C., then thats the end of any reasonable discussion I can have with you. When you reach that stage, there is no more room point in discussing this matter. When you join us back in reality, please let me know and we can continue.
It simply amazes me to watch our military in action as they cut through Iraqi defenses like a hot razor through melted butter. 'Liberate the Iraqi people' is the mantra and everyone joining in the chant seems driven to free these poor down trodden 3rd world troglodytes.
Certainly we agree that Saddam is a murderer, tyrant and a sociopath. Saddam is a psychotic mad man who really does need to be exterminated.
Let's look a bit deeper into the Iraqi culture and make a few comparisons.
The Iraqi's don't pay any direct taxes, have minimum restrictions on starting businesses, free medical care from cradle to grave, no property taxes, no sales taxes, minimal zoning and planning laws, free college education with daily meals provided in the campus cafeteria. Iraqi's are encouraged to own guns, have virtually no crime, no homeless (the Bedouin's choose their nomadic lifestyle), Iraqi's are free to travel, write, create, make art and worship their God.
The state funds it all with natural resource development. I could go on but I think the picture is clear. So where's the tyranny?
The one area where there is no freedom is in the political arena where absolute faith and loyalty to Saddam's regime is required, or else. The brutality is well recorded, the torture, murders, rapes and violent resolutions. No jury of peers, no objective judges, sheer punishment without regard for justice.
Bottom line, the Iraqi people are controlled by fear.
Last Thursday an incident in my offices caused me to make some mental comparisons. Bernice, wife of Monte, one of our sales staff came rushing into the office in a panic. It was clear that she was terrified, pale faced, clammy skin, shaking and clearly frustrated. She looked as though she had been chased by Saddam's muggers and narrowly escaped. Bernice is in her early 60's, a gentle and kindly woman, 5'9" tall, 115 pounds, she's committed to the Lord and though her life has met with difficult challenges over the past several years, she never shows it. An all American girl, born on a ranch in Montana, well traveled, a working woman who helped her husband run a popular downtown upscale shoe store for many years, raised two children who are successful and looks forward to being a grandma.
Yet here she was, wringing with fear, shaking and distraught. I asked her "What's wrong"? "You look like you just saw a ghost" I said. She responded…"The taxes! I have to get these forms out and I can't be late and I need to get Monte to sign them so I can mail them tonight" Trembling, out of breath clearly frightened, she had mistakenly thought April first was the deadline.
At that moment all of the things that irritate me as an American and a businessman began racing through my mind. The horrendous tax burden I carry, the way taxes are collected, the fear we all share every April 15th.
I began thinking about Ruby Ridge, Waco, Donald Scott, long retired stories of government tyranny. I got mad, really mad.
Zoning, planning and building laws and restrictions, parental authority being undermined by the state, anonymous phone calls bringing out the state child snatchers, people being jailed for not paying taxes, smoking pot, loss of property rights, the regulations and hurdles put in front of start up businesses, the idiotic bureaucrats wielding their authority like a slave master's whip. I got mad, really mad.
Our hired help has run amuck.
America has more laws and restrictions on the books than any country on earth. More people are incarcerated in America then red China and Russia combined. More stupidity flows from our supposed free and democratic system than ever envisioned by any civilization in world history.
Even the toilet in your bathroom is regulated now and they can put contractors or property owners in jail or fine them substantially if they put a real toilet in. This is freedom they tell me.
Seat belts, kiddy car seats, motorcycle helmets, laws for child rearing and discipline, firearms regulations, sign codes, licenses, permits and government permission is required for virtually everything we do. Permission needed to peaceably assemble? Permission to speak and time restrictions on public testimony at open meetings? Warrant-less searches, civil forfeitures, hocus pocus - phony boloney.
It's illegal to be out in public without your "papers". Identification laws prohibit our right to anonymity. If a policeman asks who you are he/she can throw you in jail for simply refusing to cough up your papers and cooperate whether you are breaking the law or just casually resting on your front porch. You will submit to the hired help or face the consequences. As for your drivers license or I.D. card ? Don't leave home without them! And just think, an implantable transponder is in the works.
People are routinely denied due process, jury trials, and competent legal council. Tossed in jail on trumped up charges and held on a lie. In court the police are always right even if their testimony is in direct conflict with their written reports. They aren't allowed in court as evidence. Luckily most police are honest, but many aren't and there isn't anything you can do about it…nothing. The hired help, those thankless bureaucrats, have the power and use it with a vengeance everyday against unwitting Americans for no other reason than the hired help wanting to send their message of fear to the rest of the "village".
How often have you been casually driving along and spotted a police car in your mirror, grabbed for you seat belt, worried if you had your license, registration, proof of insurance, "your Papers" in order. Is that really freedom? I wonder how many car wrecks causing death and injury result from that tyranny? Will the bureaucrats fund that study?
In many places smoking is now virtually a crime, don't drink in public because police are frequenting bars looking for intoxicated folks, dragging them outside and field testing then citing or arresting them in the parking lot for being drunk in public, and - they weren't even driving!
In Bellville, Illinois the police are wandering around with code enforcement officers walking into private homes unannounced and without warrants to check "occupancy levels"? Those who ask questions or interfere are being dragged off to jail or fined for interfering with a code enforcement officer in the midst of his/her duties? Is this America?
Criminal gangs run free throughout America holding millions of people hostage in their own homes after dark and little is being done to stop it. Keeps the critters controlled I suppose. Narcotics flow from Mexico through tunnels unabated into the bodies of our children and there is no real effort to stop them. Blame the demand they say, not the suppliers?
The American tax collection system sucks. It's driven by the same kind of fear Saddam uses to control Iraqis. I am ashamed to be a willing participant in the tax out of fear game. I am not opposed to paying my fair share, I am really satisfied that my tax dollars have clearly been well spent on the awesome military we now know is undeniably the best in the world. I am happy to have made my meager contribution. But, I don't like the collection tactics. They must be changed.
Why is it that backwater nations like Kuwait and Iraq are able to use their natural resources to the advantage of the people and in our supposed free country the resources are locked up by whacko environmentalists for all eternity, blocked from usage by laws, court orders and Green Nazi propaganda? Can't we exploit some of our bountiful resources to finance government and lessen the chains of tax tyranny here in America? Can't we find a way to collect taxes without scaring the hell out of little old ladies? Can't we?
Moral relativism has replaced old-fashioned truth and right and wrong depend on your personal twisted code of situational ethics. Good is bad, bad is good. A book that criticizes the Federal Reserve is banned, while smut shops are allowed under freedom of speech.
Nafta, Gatt, the WTO, Free trade was going to solve all of our problems. Anyone looked at the economy lately? Notice how the phony free trade issue never comes up?
We were promised that the abandonment of our industrial base and redistribution of labor jobs overseas would be offset by growth in information technology jobs (IT). But the tax incentives and labor costs have major companies including Ross Perot's EDS hiring out those IT jobs in places like India. Jobs by the millions are given to other countries.
So much for promises!
We have nearly a one half trillion dollar trade deficit. We are told deficits are good. Try that one on your bank the next time you bounce a check! Let's get real here folks.
Banks are demanding fingerprints to cash their own checks? Even our local animal hospital demands your thumbprint now if you write a check.
I asked myself as Bernice left the office the other day just how many people die from heart attacks, strokes, panic attacks and suicide every year due to government intervention. I don't suppose the bureaucrats have funded that research project yet, either.
I used to laugh at the Libertarians. Liberty I thought came with due diligence and a strong adherence to common principles and historically established community standards. I think I am right, but the Libertarian message is looking better to me all the time.
I just want my freedom back. I don't want to overthrow the government, start a civil war, protest in the streets or terrorize my fellow Americans. I just want my freedom back!
I am proud of our President and his efforts to free the Iraqi people. I pray we succeed and open the door for democratic forms of government to spread to the rest of the world, especially the Middle East and Northern Africa.
I am haunted however by that age-old adage "be careful what you ask for…you might just get it".
I am praying for our success, our President, the troops and their families, the innocent Iraqis and for the leaders of this war effort.
But, I would ask you to consider what freedom is, and what it isn't. Let your congressman/woman and President Bush hear our call to liberate America too, liberate America next..
Otherwise what's the point?
Certainly we agree that Saddam is a murderer, tyrant and a sociopath. Saddam is a psychotic mad man who really does need to be exterminated.
Let's look a bit deeper into the Iraqi culture and make a few comparisons.
The Iraqi's don't pay any direct taxes, have minimum restrictions on starting businesses, free medical care from cradle to grave, no property taxes, no sales taxes, minimal zoning and planning laws, free college education with daily meals provided in the campus cafeteria. Iraqi's are encouraged to own guns, have virtually no crime, no homeless (the Bedouin's choose their nomadic lifestyle), Iraqi's are free to travel, write, create, make art and worship their God.
The state funds it all with natural resource development. I could go on but I think the picture is clear. So where's the tyranny?
The one area where there is no freedom is in the political arena where absolute faith and loyalty to Saddam's regime is required, or else. The brutality is well recorded, the torture, murders, rapes and violent resolutions. No jury of peers, no objective judges, sheer punishment without regard for justice.
Bottom line, the Iraqi people are controlled by fear.
Last Thursday an incident in my offices caused me to make some mental comparisons. Bernice, wife of Monte, one of our sales staff came rushing into the office in a panic. It was clear that she was terrified, pale faced, clammy skin, shaking and clearly frustrated. She looked as though she had been chased by Saddam's muggers and narrowly escaped. Bernice is in her early 60's, a gentle and kindly woman, 5'9" tall, 115 pounds, she's committed to the Lord and though her life has met with difficult challenges over the past several years, she never shows it. An all American girl, born on a ranch in Montana, well traveled, a working woman who helped her husband run a popular downtown upscale shoe store for many years, raised two children who are successful and looks forward to being a grandma.
Yet here she was, wringing with fear, shaking and distraught. I asked her "What's wrong"? "You look like you just saw a ghost" I said. She responded…"The taxes! I have to get these forms out and I can't be late and I need to get Monte to sign them so I can mail them tonight" Trembling, out of breath clearly frightened, she had mistakenly thought April first was the deadline.
At that moment all of the things that irritate me as an American and a businessman began racing through my mind. The horrendous tax burden I carry, the way taxes are collected, the fear we all share every April 15th.
I began thinking about Ruby Ridge, Waco, Donald Scott, long retired stories of government tyranny. I got mad, really mad.
Zoning, planning and building laws and restrictions, parental authority being undermined by the state, anonymous phone calls bringing out the state child snatchers, people being jailed for not paying taxes, smoking pot, loss of property rights, the regulations and hurdles put in front of start up businesses, the idiotic bureaucrats wielding their authority like a slave master's whip. I got mad, really mad.
Our hired help has run amuck.
America has more laws and restrictions on the books than any country on earth. More people are incarcerated in America then red China and Russia combined. More stupidity flows from our supposed free and democratic system than ever envisioned by any civilization in world history.
Even the toilet in your bathroom is regulated now and they can put contractors or property owners in jail or fine them substantially if they put a real toilet in. This is freedom they tell me.
Seat belts, kiddy car seats, motorcycle helmets, laws for child rearing and discipline, firearms regulations, sign codes, licenses, permits and government permission is required for virtually everything we do. Permission needed to peaceably assemble? Permission to speak and time restrictions on public testimony at open meetings? Warrant-less searches, civil forfeitures, hocus pocus - phony boloney.
It's illegal to be out in public without your "papers". Identification laws prohibit our right to anonymity. If a policeman asks who you are he/she can throw you in jail for simply refusing to cough up your papers and cooperate whether you are breaking the law or just casually resting on your front porch. You will submit to the hired help or face the consequences. As for your drivers license or I.D. card ? Don't leave home without them! And just think, an implantable transponder is in the works.
People are routinely denied due process, jury trials, and competent legal council. Tossed in jail on trumped up charges and held on a lie. In court the police are always right even if their testimony is in direct conflict with their written reports. They aren't allowed in court as evidence. Luckily most police are honest, but many aren't and there isn't anything you can do about it…nothing. The hired help, those thankless bureaucrats, have the power and use it with a vengeance everyday against unwitting Americans for no other reason than the hired help wanting to send their message of fear to the rest of the "village".
How often have you been casually driving along and spotted a police car in your mirror, grabbed for you seat belt, worried if you had your license, registration, proof of insurance, "your Papers" in order. Is that really freedom? I wonder how many car wrecks causing death and injury result from that tyranny? Will the bureaucrats fund that study?
In many places smoking is now virtually a crime, don't drink in public because police are frequenting bars looking for intoxicated folks, dragging them outside and field testing then citing or arresting them in the parking lot for being drunk in public, and - they weren't even driving!
In Bellville, Illinois the police are wandering around with code enforcement officers walking into private homes unannounced and without warrants to check "occupancy levels"? Those who ask questions or interfere are being dragged off to jail or fined for interfering with a code enforcement officer in the midst of his/her duties? Is this America?
Criminal gangs run free throughout America holding millions of people hostage in their own homes after dark and little is being done to stop it. Keeps the critters controlled I suppose. Narcotics flow from Mexico through tunnels unabated into the bodies of our children and there is no real effort to stop them. Blame the demand they say, not the suppliers?
The American tax collection system sucks. It's driven by the same kind of fear Saddam uses to control Iraqis. I am ashamed to be a willing participant in the tax out of fear game. I am not opposed to paying my fair share, I am really satisfied that my tax dollars have clearly been well spent on the awesome military we now know is undeniably the best in the world. I am happy to have made my meager contribution. But, I don't like the collection tactics. They must be changed.
Why is it that backwater nations like Kuwait and Iraq are able to use their natural resources to the advantage of the people and in our supposed free country the resources are locked up by whacko environmentalists for all eternity, blocked from usage by laws, court orders and Green Nazi propaganda? Can't we exploit some of our bountiful resources to finance government and lessen the chains of tax tyranny here in America? Can't we find a way to collect taxes without scaring the hell out of little old ladies? Can't we?
Moral relativism has replaced old-fashioned truth and right and wrong depend on your personal twisted code of situational ethics. Good is bad, bad is good. A book that criticizes the Federal Reserve is banned, while smut shops are allowed under freedom of speech.
Nafta, Gatt, the WTO, Free trade was going to solve all of our problems. Anyone looked at the economy lately? Notice how the phony free trade issue never comes up?
We were promised that the abandonment of our industrial base and redistribution of labor jobs overseas would be offset by growth in information technology jobs (IT). But the tax incentives and labor costs have major companies including Ross Perot's EDS hiring out those IT jobs in places like India. Jobs by the millions are given to other countries.
So much for promises!
We have nearly a one half trillion dollar trade deficit. We are told deficits are good. Try that one on your bank the next time you bounce a check! Let's get real here folks.
Banks are demanding fingerprints to cash their own checks? Even our local animal hospital demands your thumbprint now if you write a check.
I asked myself as Bernice left the office the other day just how many people die from heart attacks, strokes, panic attacks and suicide every year due to government intervention. I don't suppose the bureaucrats have funded that research project yet, either.
I used to laugh at the Libertarians. Liberty I thought came with due diligence and a strong adherence to common principles and historically established community standards. I think I am right, but the Libertarian message is looking better to me all the time.
I just want my freedom back. I don't want to overthrow the government, start a civil war, protest in the streets or terrorize my fellow Americans. I just want my freedom back!
I am proud of our President and his efforts to free the Iraqi people. I pray we succeed and open the door for democratic forms of government to spread to the rest of the world, especially the Middle East and Northern Africa.
I am haunted however by that age-old adage "be careful what you ask for…you might just get it".
I am praying for our success, our President, the troops and their families, the innocent Iraqis and for the leaders of this war effort.
But, I would ask you to consider what freedom is, and what it isn't. Let your congressman/woman and President Bush hear our call to liberate America too, liberate America next..
Otherwise what's the point?
There seems to be a contradiction here between the US bashers. Grantt says:
"Unlike yourself Igetp2s I don't put a higher value on an American life."
Meanwhile, FunkSoulBrother says in response to my post, which is in Bold:
"If you are so concerned, then you have plenty of work to do. There dozens and dozens of countries with real problems of fascism and human rights abuse that you can worry about before the US. If you would like assitance in determing those countries, I will be more than glad to help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am an American, and unlike many of your ilk, I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave it" theory when it comes to this country. I will focus my efforts on the United States, thank you very much. It is a democracy and change is always possible in a democracy."
So which one is it?
"Unlike yourself Igetp2s I don't put a higher value on an American life."
Meanwhile, FunkSoulBrother says in response to my post, which is in Bold:
"If you are so concerned, then you have plenty of work to do. There dozens and dozens of countries with real problems of fascism and human rights abuse that you can worry about before the US. If you would like assitance in determing those countries, I will be more than glad to help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am an American, and unlike many of your ilk, I do not subscribe to the "love it or leave it" theory when it comes to this country. I will focus my efforts on the United States, thank you very much. It is a democracy and change is always possible in a democracy."
So which one is it?
OK Funk, I will elaborate more, but then you must give me a genuine answer as well.
I am happy with the freedoms that I enjoy. There are few places in the world that have comparable freedoms, which many of you are either not aware of or are not grateful for. The standard of living is extremely high. I feel that there is a good mix of social services provided, while at the same time allowing for generating personal wealth through hard work. There are few places where OPPORTUNITY to better yourself is comparable to the US. I agree not everyone starts off on the same footing, but there are countless success stories of people who started with nothing and made a huge impact on their fellow people.
As a Jew, I do not fear living openly as a Jew, and the real only other place that can be said of is Israel. There are some random acts of violence and hate crimes, but the level of that is absolutely nowhere near that found in other parts of the West, notably Europe. Despite what radicals try to portray, there really is genuine respect for other minorities and for diversity in general.
Those are the most basic reasons why I prefer to live here. If there are questions I will be happy to answer them. But first, I would like other people to answer my question: Why do you live here if its so awful. Thank you.
I am happy with the freedoms that I enjoy. There are few places in the world that have comparable freedoms, which many of you are either not aware of or are not grateful for. The standard of living is extremely high. I feel that there is a good mix of social services provided, while at the same time allowing for generating personal wealth through hard work. There are few places where OPPORTUNITY to better yourself is comparable to the US. I agree not everyone starts off on the same footing, but there are countless success stories of people who started with nothing and made a huge impact on their fellow people.
As a Jew, I do not fear living openly as a Jew, and the real only other place that can be said of is Israel. There are some random acts of violence and hate crimes, but the level of that is absolutely nowhere near that found in other parts of the West, notably Europe. Despite what radicals try to portray, there really is genuine respect for other minorities and for diversity in general.
Those are the most basic reasons why I prefer to live here. If there are questions I will be happy to answer them. But first, I would like other people to answer my question: Why do you live here if its so awful. Thank you.
Oh, I see Igetp2s cant live anywhere else so from his perspective the US is heaven and no matter what the president or the government do you feel you have to support it because you cant live anywhere else. Now, stop exagerrating, from gamblers perspective this country is not as great as it used to be because we are losing our freedom doing what we do!
"Oh, I see Igetp2s cant live anywhere else so from his perspective the US is heaven and no matter what the president or the government do you feel you have to support it because you cant live anywhere else. "
I never said I cant live anywhere else, I choose not to live anywhere else.
"Now, stop exagerrating, from gamblers perspective this country is not as great as it used to be because we are losing our freedom doing what we do!"
You might find this surprising Am I, but to some people there are more important things in life than gambling.
I never said I cant live anywhere else, I choose not to live anywhere else.
"Now, stop exagerrating, from gamblers perspective this country is not as great as it used to be because we are losing our freedom doing what we do!"
You might find this surprising Am I, but to some people there are more important things in life than gambling.
I am certainly not a $2 bettor. I am up 12 dimes so far this year. And yet I still consider it a hobby that I would give up in a second if it meant I had to move.
And the poll is definitely not so simple. Comparing the president my country to a terrorist is NOT a small matter. And if your wondering why this thread is so long, it is because of all the BS exagerrations and histeria from all the US bashers, which there seems to be no shortage of. Out of all of you, there was not a single positive statement about the US to be found. Not a single one!!! Go back and check. I find that incredible.
And the poll is definitely not so simple. Comparing the president my country to a terrorist is NOT a small matter. And if your wondering why this thread is so long, it is because of all the BS exagerrations and histeria from all the US bashers, which there seems to be no shortage of. Out of all of you, there was not a single positive statement about the US to be found. Not a single one!!! Go back and check. I find that incredible.
