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Barman I am no Catholic but don't bother grouping them into your little black hole. Stop exagerating facts to bolster up your weak arguments. 95% of Catholics do in fact believe Christ to be the Creator. So what are we left with on the board- Episcopalians, Mormons, and the Unity sect!!! YIKES!!!!!
Neither of us know how many Catholics share your belief.
But even at your humble 5% allowance, that leaves us with some 20 million+ Christians who don't share that belief
Over 200 different sects of Christianity tell us for sure that very few tenets are shared by 100% of those who honestly profess to practice a life founded on Christian principles
But even at your humble 5% allowance, that leaves us with some 20 million+ Christians who don't share that belief
Over 200 different sects of Christianity tell us for sure that very few tenets are shared by 100% of those who honestly profess to practice a life founded on Christian principles
20 million (up to 60 million if we use my experience of most Catholics not viewing Christ as the literal Creator but a distinct personage from God the Creator) in the USA alone is sufficient to be considered common.
If your perceptions differ, then you should by all means continue to embrace them. Just don't be startled when you encounter other Christians who have perceptions different from your own.
No reason to be startled here Barman. It's just the same "New Age" garbage I always see (picking and choosing what is convienient for them, making God into what they would have him be). Well guess what Barman, God is your Creator not the other way around! The Lord said "I am the same yesterday, today, and forever more. Certain things about the Bible or the Lord may not always be easy or comfortable for me, but I most definitely won't abandon my faith because of this. I except Him just as He is regardless of the difficulty! Yet this is exactly what you fail to do. Why? It's not comfortable? It's not easy? It's not about you Barman! It's not about me either! It's about Him! The sooner you realize this the sooner you will be able to find a clearer path which you seem to be desperately searching for.
I'm afraid your personal knowledge of the Catholics you know doesn't constitute enough of a consensus to speak for Catholics as a whole.
Referencing the Vatican web site we see that the Vatican viewpoint is that Jesus is the Creator:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
"ARTICLE I
"I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"
Paragraph 4. The Creator
279 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."116 Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed). We shall speak first of the Creator, then of creation and finally of the fall into sin from which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to raise us up again.
280 Creation is the foundation of "all God's saving plans," the "beginning of the history of salvation"117 that culminates in Christ. Conversely, the mystery of Christ casts conclusive light on the mystery of creation and reveals the end for which "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": from the beginning, God envisaged the glory of the new creation in Christ.118 "
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Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus existed. However, they do not look to him as a savior.
I would be willing to be there are far more Christians that do believe that Christ was Creator than do not since Catholics and the Protestant sects you mention consist of a large percentage of Christians.
You guys crack me up
'The Bible' is a collection of storys written by pagan jews to keep themselves amused back in the day. Other than the 'book of Jobe', the old testament is a garbage read and is not on par with even the worst literature put out today. The 'Christ' phenom stems from the fact the new testament is newer and superiorly written because of the evolvement of man and his intelligence. And thus, a much more interesting read. But it's a disgrace to the intended work of the original author.
Christianity is an ancient Jewish cult. It's members are called 'Christians'.
When you die, you have no soul or spirit that leaves your body and goes somewhere or none of that garbage. Your brain stops working. And your heart stops beating. YOU ARE DEAD. That's it. Nothing else. It's over.
'The Bible' is a collection of storys written by pagan jews to keep themselves amused back in the day. Other than the 'book of Jobe', the old testament is a garbage read and is not on par with even the worst literature put out today. The 'Christ' phenom stems from the fact the new testament is newer and superiorly written because of the evolvement of man and his intelligence. And thus, a much more interesting read. But it's a disgrace to the intended work of the original author.
Christianity is an ancient Jewish cult. It's members are called 'Christians'.
When you die, you have no soul or spirit that leaves your body and goes somewhere or none of that garbage. Your brain stops working. And your heart stops beating. YOU ARE DEAD. That's it. Nothing else. It's over.
ATB gets fired up: No reason to be startled here Barman. It's just the same "New Age" garbage I always see (picking and choosing what is convienient for them, making God into what they would have him be).
B: Thus explaining why there's over 200 sects of Christianity, each with varying beliefs.
ATB: I except
B: "accept"
A: Him
B: Her
A: just as He
B: She
A: The sooner you realize this the sooner you will be able to find a clearer path which you seem to be desperately searching for.
B: Haven't needed to search since 1996. But I'll give you a hat tip to enjoy your own journey.
B: Thus explaining why there's over 200 sects of Christianity, each with varying beliefs.
ATB: I except
B: "accept"
A: Him
B: Her
A: just as He
B: She
A: The sooner you realize this the sooner you will be able to find a clearer path which you seem to be desperately searching for.
B: Haven't needed to search since 1996. But I'll give you a hat tip to enjoy your own journey.
QL:Referencing the Vatican web site we see that the Vatican viewpoint is that Jesus is the Creator:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
"ARTICLE I
"I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"
Paragraph 4. The Creator
279 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."116 Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed). We shall speak first of the Creator, then of creation and finally of the fall into sin from which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to raise us up again.
280 Creation is the foundation of "all God's saving plans," the "beginning of the history of salvation"117 that culminates in Christ. Conversely, the mystery of Christ casts conclusive light on the mystery of creation and reveals the end for which "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": from the beginning, God envisaged the glory of the new creation in Christ.118 "
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QL, nothing in the above cites "Jesus Christ as the Creator of the Universe". There is a closing reference to the new spiritual creation when one comes into harmony with Christ.
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QL: Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus existed. However, they do not look to him as a savior.
B: As someone raised in the LDS Church from birth until I left them at age 33, I can state with full confidence that the LDS Church views Jesus Christ as the Saviour and the Messiah as foretold in OT scripture. They are most certainly Christians, though many fundamentalist sects of Christianity disagree.
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QL: I would be willing to be there are far more Christians that do believe that Christ was Creator than do not
B: And you may well be right, though neither of us could quantify such a stat. The jist of the original segregatory remark was to acknowledge the straight up fact that there is no one precise definitiion of what constitutes a Christian.
Over 200 sects of Christianity, each with varying belief points, demonstrate such a claim (only one true Christian) to be utterly imaginary on the part of those claiming to have the one inside track.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
"ARTICLE I
"I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH"
Paragraph 4. The Creator
279 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."116 Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed). We shall speak first of the Creator, then of creation and finally of the fall into sin from which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to raise us up again.
280 Creation is the foundation of "all God's saving plans," the "beginning of the history of salvation"117 that culminates in Christ. Conversely, the mystery of Christ casts conclusive light on the mystery of creation and reveals the end for which "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": from the beginning, God envisaged the glory of the new creation in Christ.118 "
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QL, nothing in the above cites "Jesus Christ as the Creator of the Universe". There is a closing reference to the new spiritual creation when one comes into harmony with Christ.
======
QL: Mormons are not Christians. They believe that Jesus existed. However, they do not look to him as a savior.
B: As someone raised in the LDS Church from birth until I left them at age 33, I can state with full confidence that the LDS Church views Jesus Christ as the Saviour and the Messiah as foretold in OT scripture. They are most certainly Christians, though many fundamentalist sects of Christianity disagree.
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QL: I would be willing to be there are far more Christians that do believe that Christ was Creator than do not
B: And you may well be right, though neither of us could quantify such a stat. The jist of the original segregatory remark was to acknowledge the straight up fact that there is no one precise definitiion of what constitutes a Christian.
Over 200 sects of Christianity, each with varying belief points, demonstrate such a claim (only one true Christian) to be utterly imaginary on the part of those claiming to have the one inside track.
QFT, thanks
I've seen breakdowns which can more fairly slot the hundreds of varying Christian beliefs into about 200 different sects.
Though after years of such study and observation, I still see only a handful (ardent Fundamentalists) who dig in their heels and insist that they and only they are true Christians.
That's cool. All the rest of us non-fundy Christians are rocking along just fine though the fundies may have us consigned to a burning Hell fire along with all the gays, Muslims, Jews and non-believers.
Per WikiAnswers, there are 33,820 different Christian denominations. In actuality, there could be more or there could be less, it all depends on how far you want to break them down into subgroups.
The funny thing is that for the most part, every member of these varying sects thinks that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
The funny thing is that for the most part, every member of these varying sects thinks that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
"The funny thing is that for the most part, every member of these varying sects thinks that they are right and everyone else is wrong."
Bzzzt. Completely wrong.
95+% of Christiandom has the same mentality of the great St. Augustine
who is credited with saying it best:
"IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY. "
Regarding Jesus being the subject of the verses I posted, Zit's post clears things up a little bit:
"14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
As far as Mormons being Christians, I'll give you that. Information given to me regarding Mormons along with things written by Mormons that I have read gave me the wrong idea. Or perhaps I came to the wrong conclusion. Thanks for clearing that up.
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