You know as well as I do the world calls on the US for help. The SKs, Germans, Bosnia, Liberia, Kuwait, the French and many others, which cost alot. We talked of leaving SK and Germany and they cried they'd lose too many jobs if the US funded bases closed. I'm all for bringing them home. Once again they need us much more than we need them, what can we do?
Rest? I deal with facts. I was on a committee that was a forced issue because of people like you that claimed the sky was falling all because some hardworking people were crossing the border. They needed someone to blame, gee why not take the people who don't vote, have no voice in the community and put a big badge that says BLAME ME on them why don't we? I went in with an open mind and left with one. I didn't come out with a bleeding heart or an undying love for these people. I didn't say lets go help them cross. No, not at all. What I and everyone else came up with was simple, that if you studied this so called problem you would realize what the true problem is. So for you and anyone else that just tries to put some simple stamp on things (such as saying the one free hospital in all of El Paso is the best place to get your trumped up stats) this is what is going on in CA. I can't speak for TX, but I can speak for CA because I was there and saw the numbers for myself presented by experts who put a lot more time and study into this than we ever will:
Hospital X is given the mandate by the county, serve everyone no matter their ability to pay. Further you are not to ask for legal status of patients, if someone is sick you help them. After all that is the oath doctors take and the state mandates. So the bills come in and of course there are going to be some illegals that get care, but its not an overwhelming number. Even in San Diego it was estimated about 20% of the non-paying people were illegal, about 50% were legal immigrants with verified green cards and 30% were just plain broke San Diegans, they do exist. They went to the state of CA when it was time to get reimbursed and the state says no, we aren't paying for the illegals. We think that is the feds responsibility. The hospital goes to the feds and they say, are you kidding you are a state hospital take it from your funds. The state says no way, illegals are supposed to be stopped by the feds. The feds say that the state is benefitting from their presence in taxes, they should pay for them like any other resident, legal or not. So the hospital gets screwed. Hospital X goes back to the state and says, listen we have a duty here and we do it the best we can. A lot of these people that come here for free care are a result of accidents on the streets and especially accidents on jobs. Now pay us from the disability. The state says screw you, they didn't pay us for disability insurance. The state of CA is flat out ignoring the fact that they did get the money in many cases. Oftentimes the money was being paid, but since it wasn't for the person named they said no dice. So to try to alleviate this, the hospital with the support of their local representatives pushed for money to be set aside for these problems in the US budget. A laughable amount of money was given to them, why? Because of course the anti-immigration crowd had a fit one dime was going to these people. They made flat out lies saying things like, oh they came across the border for medical care just like OUT says, but it wasn't true. You see people like Out and his type don't realize illegals don't go to hospitals unless they have to! They are afraid of any institution that could reveal their status in any way. Not to mention most of these people come from a stratus of society that never used hospitals before and aren't about to get in the habit of doing it here. That is the joke of this all, immigrants come here to WORK, not to get on the dole. If you go to Mexico people swap stories about where to go and get a good job, not where to go and get a good welfare check. What ever made people think this in the first place? Immigrants don't want our money, they want our jobs. Isn't it obvious? These people work two jobs, 70-80 hours a week and live in conditions not much better than at home so they can send back more than half their earnings. Life isn't good for them here, its actually pretty terrible when you consider they are far from everything they know, they often live in crime infested parts of town 5 or 6 people to a bedroom, but that is their reality they need to work and they need the money so they do it without complaints. When they go back to Mexico notice they don't go telling the world what a crappy dump they had to live in and how terrible they got treated. You get some stupid Americans come back from a vacation in Mexico and all you hear about is how things aren't right, how they aren't as good as back at home. Is that not a shame?
So back to the story, the feds give a piddling amount, about 3% of what was really needed. The states said, well we got screwed by the feds so we aren't about to give anything more to the hospitals, we got our own needs, but since they are our facilities we are going to fund them, but cry and say they are making us bankrupt. Completely ignoring the hundreds of millions of dollars the state earns off taxing Mexicans, either illegals or just visitors, they act as if that is a cost with no revenue. That is the shame, that and that they go and lie about the solution saying that legalization would make it worse. No actually it would be a financial bonanza, but pride obviously matters more than facing reality in CA. I can only imagine it now, I left during the boom, I didn't wait around to see the bust...
Hospital X is given the mandate by the county, serve everyone no matter their ability to pay. Further you are not to ask for legal status of patients, if someone is sick you help them. After all that is the oath doctors take and the state mandates. So the bills come in and of course there are going to be some illegals that get care, but its not an overwhelming number. Even in San Diego it was estimated about 20% of the non-paying people were illegal, about 50% were legal immigrants with verified green cards and 30% were just plain broke San Diegans, they do exist. They went to the state of CA when it was time to get reimbursed and the state says no, we aren't paying for the illegals. We think that is the feds responsibility. The hospital goes to the feds and they say, are you kidding you are a state hospital take it from your funds. The state says no way, illegals are supposed to be stopped by the feds. The feds say that the state is benefitting from their presence in taxes, they should pay for them like any other resident, legal or not. So the hospital gets screwed. Hospital X goes back to the state and says, listen we have a duty here and we do it the best we can. A lot of these people that come here for free care are a result of accidents on the streets and especially accidents on jobs. Now pay us from the disability. The state says screw you, they didn't pay us for disability insurance. The state of CA is flat out ignoring the fact that they did get the money in many cases. Oftentimes the money was being paid, but since it wasn't for the person named they said no dice. So to try to alleviate this, the hospital with the support of their local representatives pushed for money to be set aside for these problems in the US budget. A laughable amount of money was given to them, why? Because of course the anti-immigration crowd had a fit one dime was going to these people. They made flat out lies saying things like, oh they came across the border for medical care just like OUT says, but it wasn't true. You see people like Out and his type don't realize illegals don't go to hospitals unless they have to! They are afraid of any institution that could reveal their status in any way. Not to mention most of these people come from a stratus of society that never used hospitals before and aren't about to get in the habit of doing it here. That is the joke of this all, immigrants come here to WORK, not to get on the dole. If you go to Mexico people swap stories about where to go and get a good job, not where to go and get a good welfare check. What ever made people think this in the first place? Immigrants don't want our money, they want our jobs. Isn't it obvious? These people work two jobs, 70-80 hours a week and live in conditions not much better than at home so they can send back more than half their earnings. Life isn't good for them here, its actually pretty terrible when you consider they are far from everything they know, they often live in crime infested parts of town 5 or 6 people to a bedroom, but that is their reality they need to work and they need the money so they do it without complaints. When they go back to Mexico notice they don't go telling the world what a crappy dump they had to live in and how terrible they got treated. You get some stupid Americans come back from a vacation in Mexico and all you hear about is how things aren't right, how they aren't as good as back at home. Is that not a shame?
So back to the story, the feds give a piddling amount, about 3% of what was really needed. The states said, well we got screwed by the feds so we aren't about to give anything more to the hospitals, we got our own needs, but since they are our facilities we are going to fund them, but cry and say they are making us bankrupt. Completely ignoring the hundreds of millions of dollars the state earns off taxing Mexicans, either illegals or just visitors, they act as if that is a cost with no revenue. That is the shame, that and that they go and lie about the solution saying that legalization would make it worse. No actually it would be a financial bonanza, but pride obviously matters more than facing reality in CA. I can only imagine it now, I left during the boom, I didn't wait around to see the bust...
Wildbill,
I disagree, the problem is much worse than you see. The facts below may be hazardous to your arguement so proceed with caution.
In 1994 the California voters (very liberal people I might add) voted FOR proposition 187, which would have denied illegal immigrants FREE healthcare, education and welfare benifits immediately. A liberal judge immediately over-ruled the will of the tax paying citizens of the state of California. So all these MILLIONS of people that voted for prop 187 are also wrong. You think there's NO problem with the issues that were voted on in prop 187, but the tax payers do. In fact they called it to a vote about 9 years ago because they felt it was such a huge problem. Are you saying now 9 years later and 40 BILLION in the hole the problem is fixed. I doubt it.
If you make it known the free services are not available people seem to change their actions.
[This message was edited by outandup on August 27, 2003 at 09:47 AM.]
I disagree, the problem is much worse than you see. The facts below may be hazardous to your arguement so proceed with caution.
In 1994 the California voters (very liberal people I might add) voted FOR proposition 187, which would have denied illegal immigrants FREE healthcare, education and welfare benifits immediately. A liberal judge immediately over-ruled the will of the tax paying citizens of the state of California. So all these MILLIONS of people that voted for prop 187 are also wrong. You think there's NO problem with the issues that were voted on in prop 187, but the tax payers do. In fact they called it to a vote about 9 years ago because they felt it was such a huge problem. Are you saying now 9 years later and 40 BILLION in the hole the problem is fixed. I doubt it.
If you make it known the free services are not available people seem to change their actions.
[This message was edited by outandup on August 27, 2003 at 09:47 AM.]
California has a majority of liberal voters and they even passed prop 187, which would have denied FREE services to illegal immigrants. That was passed over 9 years ago and a leftist judge over-ruled the will of the citizens. Game over this should end the debate.
The liberals in California voted for the very thing I'm saying now. The voters voted YES 9 years ago and the leaders over-ruled the people and now Californias 40 BILLION in the hole, amazing.
The liberals in California voted for the very thing I'm saying now. The voters voted YES 9 years ago and the leaders over-ruled the people and now Californias 40 BILLION in the hole, amazing.
Out,
You're defense is obsurd. You can't pawn the $40,000,000,000 deficit on Illegal Immigrants when you very own Neo-Con campaign-backing Enron has ****ed California more than anyone. Throw the Dot Com bust (and the thousands & thousands of lost jobs) on top of that and BOOM - you have a big deficit.
You're defense is obsurd. You can't pawn the $40,000,000,000 deficit on Illegal Immigrants when you very own Neo-Con campaign-backing Enron has ****ed California more than anyone. Throw the Dot Com bust (and the thousands & thousands of lost jobs) on top of that and BOOM - you have a big deficit.
Out,
I strongly suggest that you enroll yourself into Philosophy 101 or an intermediate Discrete Math course because you don't understand logical proofs.
Voting for any issue does not even imply that that issue caused a deficit problem, let alone prove it.
You're not right, you're delusional.
I strongly suggest that you enroll yourself into Philosophy 101 or an intermediate Discrete Math course because you don't understand logical proofs.
Voting for any issue does not even imply that that issue caused a deficit problem, let alone prove it.
You're not right, you're delusional.
Out,
"First off, in 1994 liberal Cailifornia voted to end the FREE services provided by taxpayers, so game over I'm right on this issue."
"game over" please, what so I guess I'm supposed to answer, you are the weakest link, to that.
"I'm for defending the USs national security"
Well that's good, problem is that no valid proof that Saddam was any real threat ever came to light. As a matter of fact, all these years since Bush1 attacked him, giving him a reason to be pissed, he never retaliated.
What it comes down to is a democratic system representing people of different beliefs. You'd rather see funding spent on things like the Iraq fiasco, increasing the military, more prison space to house pot heads, etc. I'd rather see funding spent on health care for those that can't afford it, aids research, education, etc. It's all a give and take and the swings from lib to conserv and back again.
"First off, in 1994 liberal Cailifornia voted to end the FREE services provided by taxpayers, so game over I'm right on this issue."
"game over" please, what so I guess I'm supposed to answer, you are the weakest link, to that.
"I'm for defending the USs national security"
Well that's good, problem is that no valid proof that Saddam was any real threat ever came to light. As a matter of fact, all these years since Bush1 attacked him, giving him a reason to be pissed, he never retaliated.
What it comes down to is a democratic system representing people of different beliefs. You'd rather see funding spent on things like the Iraq fiasco, increasing the military, more prison space to house pot heads, etc. I'd rather see funding spent on health care for those that can't afford it, aids research, education, etc. It's all a give and take and the swings from lib to conserv and back again.
Nice try, just change the subject.
The facts are:
1. In 1994 the liberals in California voted to end FREE services to illegal immigrants because they felt it was draining the the state of California. Now in 2003 California is 40 BILLION in the hole. California's debt is equal to all the other 49 US states combined. I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else.
Lander,
Do you think the taxpayers have the right to vote on prop 187, pass prop 187 and enforce prop 187? Guess not.
The facts are:
1. In 1994 the liberals in California voted to end FREE services to illegal immigrants because they felt it was draining the the state of California. Now in 2003 California is 40 BILLION in the hole. California's debt is equal to all the other 49 US states combined. I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else.
Lander,
Do you think the taxpayers have the right to vote on prop 187, pass prop 187 and enforce prop 187? Guess not.
Out,
"Nice try, just change the subject."
I'm not sure what you mean. I think I've merely expounded on the debate. Besides this thread has gotten long enough that more than one issue has been mentioned.
"The facts are:
1. In 1994 the liberals in California voted to end FREE services to illegal immigrants because they felt it was draining the the state of California. Now in 2003 California is 40 BILLION in the hole. California's debt is equal to all the other 49 US states combined. I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else."
First of all, I'm not from Cali and have never voted there, so whatever went on does not represent my opion on immigrants. In all honesty I'm not all that informed on prop 187 and when you make a statement like the "libs" voted it out, I should probably ask you for a source. I really don't know if you mean conservative dems or what when you say "libs". Moving on, you contradict yourself, you say that "libs" voted against free services to illegals in '94 but imply that from then to 2003 the economic situation has gotten worse not better, apparently that wasn't the solution. Finally this part...
"I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else."
...yet you would have us believe that all economic troubles in Cali are the result of Mexican immigrants.
"Nice try, just change the subject."
I'm not sure what you mean. I think I've merely expounded on the debate. Besides this thread has gotten long enough that more than one issue has been mentioned.
"The facts are:
1. In 1994 the liberals in California voted to end FREE services to illegal immigrants because they felt it was draining the the state of California. Now in 2003 California is 40 BILLION in the hole. California's debt is equal to all the other 49 US states combined. I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else."
First of all, I'm not from Cali and have never voted there, so whatever went on does not represent my opion on immigrants. In all honesty I'm not all that informed on prop 187 and when you make a statement like the "libs" voted it out, I should probably ask you for a source. I really don't know if you mean conservative dems or what when you say "libs". Moving on, you contradict yourself, you say that "libs" voted against free services to illegals in '94 but imply that from then to 2003 the economic situation has gotten worse not better, apparently that wasn't the solution. Finally this part...
"I'm suppose to believe it has nothing to do with the heavy population of illegal immigrants, try that on someone else."
...yet you would have us believe that all economic troubles in Cali are the result of Mexican immigrants.
kaya,
No doubt California is a very liberal state, meaning the majority of the voters lean liberal ie they vote in liberal politicians.
In 1994 the voters of California got fed up with the high run away taxes and pushed prop 187 to be voted on. Prop 187 would have ended FREE services to illegal immigrants. Prop 187 passed, before it could be enforced a leftist judge OVERTURNED the will of the people. In this case liberal people of California.
In 1994 I believe California was only in a few BILLION of debt and today they're at about 40 BILLION. Matter of fact California's debt equals that of all 49 other US states combined.
I hope this clears things up and eliminates all doubt in your mind that California has serious problem with illegal immigrants.
Do you believe prop 187 should be enforced since the people of California voted YES?
No doubt California is a very liberal state, meaning the majority of the voters lean liberal ie they vote in liberal politicians.
In 1994 the voters of California got fed up with the high run away taxes and pushed prop 187 to be voted on. Prop 187 would have ended FREE services to illegal immigrants. Prop 187 passed, before it could be enforced a leftist judge OVERTURNED the will of the people. In this case liberal people of California.
In 1994 I believe California was only in a few BILLION of debt and today they're at about 40 BILLION. Matter of fact California's debt equals that of all 49 other US states combined.
I hope this clears things up and eliminates all doubt in your mind that California has serious problem with illegal immigrants.
Do you believe prop 187 should be enforced since the people of California voted YES?
Lander,
Check the past & present California budgets, the truth is there and I'm right.
California is in the hole for about 40 BILLION which equals the hole for the other 49 US states combined. California's liberal policies towards illegal immigrants has a lot to do with the problem. I'm amazed this is so hard for you and few others to see.
Check the past & present California budgets, the truth is there and I'm right.
California is in the hole for about 40 BILLION which equals the hole for the other 49 US states combined. California's liberal policies towards illegal immigrants has a lot to do with the problem. I'm amazed this is so hard for you and few others to see.
