Celtics +900

[crudebar]

Doesn't get enough credit for his finals shot? Lol. Basically all anyone thinks about when his name is mentioned...that or his flat earth comment.

Mine was still when he was playing the bucks and the bucks used a replica of the old MECCA floor. When asked about it Irving replied "very dangerous to be using a floor from the 1970s i am surprised its allowed" when told it was just a replica of the old floor and it was actually quite new...he replied that his feelings on the floor hadn't changed. Lol.

Talk about the education system failing him.

 

[Avocado33]

Well yeah he has certainly struggled against elite defensive backcourts at times, just likepretty much every other elite combo guard has at some point in their playoff careers. Him struggling in those two series specifically doesn't seem sufficient enough to label him the way you do though -- at least in my opinion . I guess we can just disagree on that

He genuinely looked disengaged for Games 2-3 of Celtics series after cooking Boston Game 1. Hard to imagine his mental volatility isn't a factor

 

[crudebar]

I also like when people say an athlete is "disinterested"...you normally see this of athletes that are simply overrated.

They understand they can't live up to the hype so they check out because they have already been beaten.

Kyrie checked out against the bucks because he simply knew he wasn't good enough.

He checked out against the C's this year because he wasn't good enough.

On the other hand he pounded his chest when he beat down an injured C's team the previous year.

It's not that they lost because they didn't try---which they want you to believe. Its that they didn't try because they knew their best wasn't near good enough anways, because they aren't that good. Its an ego protect mechanism.

 

[PatsFan1283]

But those are the only 2 relevant series he’s played since leaving Cavs, not like it’s cherry picked.

if anything you could probably say he should’ve been ready to go for Boston given how little he’s played the last 3 years.

 

[Avocado33]

But those are the only 2 relevant series he’s played since leaving Cavs

Sure. And I'd say that's not sufficient enough to basically create your whole opinion of the player on. But go ahead I guess

 

[PatsFan1283]

Sure. And I'd say that's not sufficient enough to basically create your whole opinion of the player on. But go ahead I guess

I wasn't basing my opinion of a player on those 2 series obviously. If I was, I wouldn't have him top 25-30, more like top 250-300. He was straight terrible besides a few games. Team record 1-8.

But his limitations in creating his own shot were on display. Then what is he doing? Getting worn out at the other end.

Someone like Middleton or Jrue if their offense goes into the tank (which it did several times last year for the Bucks), they're still giving you other parts of the game.

I don't think he sucks, but all those sick moves that sell the sneakers + winning a title 6yrs ago got him overrated. I thought he was overrated then but since Celts basically gave up very little for him and it looked like a perfect fit on paper, was a complete no brainer deal imo

But when you say he was better than D Wade for his 3yrs with LeBron or that no one gives him credit for his shot (which crude or anyone else is going to agree is a pretty big reach) or that he's some top 10-15 player in the league, you're just overrate him because of the sweet memories.

 

[PatsFan1283]

How is he a better fit than AD for LeBron when factoring in injuries? He won some technicality because AD got hurt an extra year? I guess

AD in 2020 was way better than him, 2021 he got hurt, 2022 been hurt all year.....Irving 2015 got hurt, 2016-2017 not as good as prime AD

So he's just better through the volume of 1 extra year? That's almost like some propaganda shit. Kyrie Irving winning an argument based purely on availability seems umm.....kinda rich.

Ask LeBron who he thinks was a better sidekick lol

 

[crudebar]

Actual Irvings offense in games 2-4 looked a lot like Jrue's offense once Middleton got hurt.

One is a swinging door on defense and the other is one of the league's best perimeter defenders.

Why one series went 4 and the other 7.

 

[Avocado33]

I wasn't basing my opinion of a player on those 2 series obviously. If I was, I wouldn't have him top 25-30, more like top 250-300. He was straight terrible besides a few games. Team record 1-8.

But his limitations in creating his own shot were on display. Then what is he doing? Getting worn out at the other end.

Someone like Middleton or Jrue if their offense goes into the tank (which it did several times last year for the Bucks), they're still giving you other parts of the game.

I don't think he sucks, but all those sick moves that sell the sneakers + winning a title 6yrs ago got him overrated. I thought he was overrated then but since Celts basically gave up very little for him and it looked like a perfect fit on paper, was a complete no brainer deal imo

Pretty much every decent player efficiency rating has Irving and Tatum basically tied this season. Now I think Tatum is a better player, but I don't see how Irving's play this year makes warrants being dismissed as a "top 30 guy" when Tatum is obviously much higher

And you'd downgrade him that bad after still averaging north of 20 points in both playoff series against elite defenses? Yeah I don't know what to tell you . Lot of elite Hall of Fame guards have had rough playoff series, quite a few much worse than him.

When he isn't scoring he still giving you pretty good playmaking for others.

You're just underrating him a decent bit. Been that way for a while. Just circle talking at this point

 

[PatsFan1283]

Wade was nowhere near "one of the best players in the NBA" LeBron's second year in Miami. A 22ppg scorer who couldn't shoot 3's in 2012 as a two-guard, who didn't really play-make for others at that stage? Yeah fuck that, that's complete bullshit.

Wade and LeBron were not this ideal match like so many think they were. Their games overlapped in a lot of ways. Best current comparison of misfit starts would be something like Kawhi/PG, though obviously higher octane than that.

Kyrie on the other hand was a great complimentary piece to LeBron. The most underrated aspect of Kyrie's game is his shooting from distance. His ability to do that is what allowed him to compliment LeBron well more than anything. He stylistically was a much a better running mate to LeBron, a big reason why I think he was the better fit

The stronger argument for Wade is the defensive component.

If we are talking career achievements, then yeah oh course Wade > Irving

Perhaps he was starting to become DFade instead of DWade in 2012 but he was still 1 of the best in the league

2011-12 NBA Player Stats: Advanced | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the Advanced player stats for 2011-12 NBA Season and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

There is a snapshot of that if you wanna go through the advanced stats, even if they can be deceiving at times. He was still more like top 10-12 than top 5 at worst.

 

[Avocado33]

How is he a better fit than AD for LeBron when factoring in injuries?

AD been significantly more fragile and frankly hasn't been great when healthy aside from first year

If AD had been healthier then probably a different story

 

[PatsFan1283]

AD been significantly more fragile and frankly hasn't been great when healthy aside from first year

If AD had been healthier then probably a different story

So 1 has played 3 years and got hurt twice, the other 3 years and got hurt once?

That's a pretty thin tiebreaker.....I'd just go with AD is (was if he never gets back to his prime) way better than him next to LeBron

If Kyrie had like 5-6 years with LeBron compared to AD's 1 then that comment would make a little more sense to me. But 2-1 seems thin, no?

I'd just go Wade/AD clearly top 2 then Irving and try to take the volume out of it since they're all pretty close in volume department (i.e not much)

 

[Avocado33]

We really splitting hairs but pretty sure Kyrie basically played two full seasons and played over 50 games in his one injured year.

Davis played like 60 games in his only healthy year and a couple partial seasons. Perpetually injured this year for random shit

Kyrie did miss first finals though

 

[Avocado33]

These margins are pretty thin but I think the Laker era has been too marred by injuries. These injuries more consequential as Father Time is knocking on door, and Lakers also having much less success than Cavs

Could recency bias be clouding my judgment? Perhaps

It seems like we haven't seen enough of AD/Lebron , which is a shame.

FWIW yes if all are healthy I believe AD > Kyrie clearly . AD is a beast when he actually plays, which is rare

 

[Willie99]

Cryrie sucks

Cryrie sucks

Cryrie sucks

He's never getting by the C's

 

[PatsFan1283]

I think it is splitting hairs too but you said he was LeBron's #1 teammate based on some type of volume or when exactly they played together.

And with Wade, that just isn't true but with AD it is basically just true cause he got injured more + LeBron is older now as well.

I just wouldn't put him in that category unless the volume of play with him vs them was overwhelming or something


I guess I can't prove to you I'm right, but you wake up tomorrow and he's traded for Donovan Mitchell. Jazz getting worse (I suppose the Nets could be as well, but that's kinda the point, that's his tier)

 

[PatsFan1283]

And that's before factoring in the intangible issues he has.

Talking about him without mentioning that stuff at this point would be like talking Dennis Rodman and not mentioning it in 1997. The only team he could really play for was the Bulls and stay somewhat in line.

 

[Avocado33]

I think it is splitting hairs too but you said he was LeBron's #1 teammate based on some type of volume or when exactly they played together.

I think it's more a combo of Kyrie's ability and how his game matched up with LeBron stylistically.

Wade and LeBron had a lot of overlap in their games. LeBron better paired with a score-first guard who is fairly efficient from 3. Miami offenses could be a bit clunky at times

I do think 2017 Cavs team was pretty filthy, and that was more peak Kyrie than even 2016 Finals if you go back and look at how that season played out. Arguably the best team LeBron has ever been on.

Made losing him tougher.

 

[Avocado33]

I guess I can't prove to you I'm right, but you wake up tomorrow and he's traded for Donovan Mitchell. Jazz getting worse (I suppose the Nets could be as well, but that's kinda the point, that's his tier)

Yeah like I said you underrating him . Also ironically Kyrie probably an upgrade in terms of intangibles in that case

But we aren't changing each other's minds. GL tonight

 

[Avocado33]

or that no one gives him credit for his shot

Not sure how I missed this. You must've edited. Something got misconstrued pretty badly in this thread from that one post of mine.

I basically used that as an example of Kyrie probably not getting enough credit for the championship year. Highlighted how LeBron's chase down block is beaten to a pulp and Kyrie's shot relatively less focused on -- which is just objectively true. I mean I lived in area at the time, surrounded by pretty hardcore Cavs fans, I obviously follow the sport closely. I can safely say the balance of praise was unfairly skewed -- not on just the plays, but on the championship run as a whole (and as you know, I'm a huge Lebron supporter).

Pretty sure I also said that LeBron 100% deserved MVP but that Kyrie played a Finanls MVP-caliber series as well. Obviously he was far superior to Curry in that entire series and was second best player by a lot.