can people be taught how to play poker?

[HarryCaray]

ive also been told that if youre gonna call you might as well raise. do younguys find this to be true? i mean i know not every time but the majority of the time?? thanks.

Nah.

I never limp (just call the big blind amount), if I'm opening action into a pot preflop I'm always raising. Flat calling someone else's raise as opposed to 3-betting them is often appropriate though, because when you 3-bet you might get 4-bet, and if you develop good post-flop skills you want to reduce the variance of getting too many chips in preflop unless you have an actual premium hand.

Postflop there are most definitely situations where calling is the proper play and far preferred to raising. Specific situations include (but are not limited to) when you feel your opponent is bluffing you and your hand is not super vulnerable (why not let them continue to bluff off to you, no sense in pushing them off the hand), when you are playing against a fish who cannot fold and you are drawing (no sense in semi-bluffing cause they won't fold), if you only have a bluff-catcher (a hand that will beat the bluff part of their range, but not the value part of their range; therefore raising nets you no value because they will fold their bluffs, and call you -and subsequently beat you out of more chips - with their value range)...that kinda thing

 

[HarryCaray]

when you feel your opponent is bluffing you and your hand is not super vulnerable (why not let them continue to bluff off to you, no sense in pushing them off the hand)

Just to clarify this point a little bit, and explain what I mean by vulnerable. There are some situations where raising to protect your hand is proper, even if it gets them to abandon their bluff line.

One example is you hold 88, opponent raises preflop, you flat their raise. Flop comes 7 4 2 and opponent makes standard continuation bet. Here raising is usually proper, because it is highly likely a card higher than 8 will hit the turn...and then you're left guessing if your (likely) bluffing opponent connected. Let's say in this example you flat call and a king hits the turn and your opponent makes a big bet. Harder to know where you're at, I just prefer to raise the flop and try to end the hand there.

Now, if you hold 88 and the flop is 8 4 2 and your opponent bets, it is usually proper to call and let them continue to bluff away their chips. One exception would be if you have a very strong read that your opponent has and overpair and you want to pile in as many chips as possible on the flop before an overcard to their pair drops and kills the action.

 

[HarryCaray]

if you only have a bluff-catcher (a hand that will beat the bluff part of their range, but not the value part of their range; therefore raising nets you no value because they will fold their bluffs, and call you -and subsequently beat you out of more chips - with their value range)...that kinda thing

An example of a bluff-catcher type hand: You have KQ clubs in position, flop is Ac5c3h. You call with the nut flush draw, turn is 7d and it goes check check. River is Kd, so you missed your flush but now have 2nd pair top kicker. Opponent makes small bet into the river. Depending on opponent you might want to fold here, but it may be worth a call. But it is pretty much never worth raising because your opponent will fold their bluffs and call with their aces.

The exception (yes their is are exceptions to every situation) is if you feel your opponent has a weak ace and you can get them to fold with a big raise. This is called "turning your hand into a bluff". This is a more advanced tactic though, the most profitable play here would be calling (especially at low stakes where you're never going to get people to fold an ace).

 

[drpugilist]

alright ive been playing for the past 4 hrs. i deposited 300 the day after this thread started and tonight was the first time i got to play. i was playing 10c by the book of starting hands listed earlier in a link. im apparently awful at betting after the flop! i prob lost 25 bucks. is there anywhere i can go or does anyone have advice on how to play the starting hands after the flop? also i counted abt ten times i folded what i would consider marginal hands and of course the flop makes trips several times!!! im sure that happens to everyone but im just not used to playing that tight i guess??! help!!

 

[drpugilist]

to add to that, when i say betting after the flop im meaning the size of my bet. or is that depending on how many players and/or money is in the pot??

 

[HarryCaray]

also i counted abt ten times i folded what i would consider marginal hands and of course the flop makes trips several times!!! im sure that happens to everyone but im just not used to playing that tight i guess??! help!!

Don't even pay attention to that. That's called being results-oriented. It doesn't mean folding was the wrong move. For every time you fold Q8 and the flop comes out 8 8 3, there are 25 times where it comes out as an air ball. The time it came out 8 8 3 just sticks in your mind more. It is still an overall -ev hand to play preflop (under most normal conditions). You might make $5 once but you will lose 50 cents 20 times to do it. ​That is a key concept to understand.

 

[drpugilist]

yes I understand again I think it just seemed like I was playing so tight. any advice on betting after the flop? normally I would just bet a percentage of the pot. say half the pot. I'd never just make a min bet. is that wrong?

 

[HarryCaray]

to add to that, when i say betting after the flop im meaning the size of my bet. or is that depending on how many players and/or money is in the pot??

Yes and yes. Not only those two factors, but also the effective stack to pot ratio (SPR). Let's say the pot going into the flop is $1. You have $22 and your opponent has $6. You are only effectively $6 deep even though you have 22 (because that's the max additional that can be put into the pot by each player). So your effective SPR is only 6/1.

This is an important concept because it helps you determine the cap on your implied odds - the max you will get out of your opponent if you make your hand and take all their chips.

Anyway, as far as sizing goes...it would be impossible to write an all-encompassing guide on how to size postflop. I would say some good general rules are:

• If you raise preflop and now you're making a standard continuation bet, you'll want to bet about half the pot.
• If you notice your opponents tend to call a lot on the flop, but then abandon on the turn or river, bet a little bigger on the flop. Maybe 2/3 pot.
• If you flop a monster hand, you don't want to deviate from the above too much, because any decent player will pick up the pattern. Your opponent should not be able to distinguish the strength of your hand based on your sizing.
• Consider check/raising a balanced range of mostly made hands, but some draws and some bluffs.
• When check/raising I like to make it just under 3x their bet. So if you check, they bet $2, I'd raise it to like $5.50.
• You need to understand the difference between a wet board and a dry board. A wet board is coordinated, and your opponent could have many draws. A dry board is not, and there are few draws available. KdJdTh is a super wet board. Jc8s4d is a super dry board.
• I lean towards bigger bets and on the flop and turn with made hands on wet boards. Make your opponent pay to draw. For this reason I don't like employing check/raises here too often, I don't like giving my opponents free cards on a draw-heavy board.
• I lean towards more slow plays and smaller bets on dry boards, as your hands are less vulnerable and you're not going to get much value out of any draws.
• Know your opponent. If your opponent is sticky (loves to call down all the way to the river), size accordingly. Bet 2/3 pot on flop, turn, and river with your strong made hands. Consider shutting down if you miss the flop, if they're gonna call you anyway. If your opponent folds a lot, check/raise your made hands but lead out your bluffs.
• There's almost never any reason at your level to ever bet less than half the pot or more than the pot. So keep your sizing in that range.

Hope some of that helps.

 

[HarryCaray]

Essentially the goal of bet sizing is to get your opponent to make mistakes. Mistakes you can trick your opponent into include:

• Overpaying for their draws (not getting proper pot odds to chase)
• Calling with weaker made hands
• Folding better made hands
• Mistaking your bet sizing for strength/weakness and thereby misreading your hand

Being able to read their hand helps. If you are relatively sure on the turn that they have a flush draw, don't bet 1/5 pot. You're giving them the correct odds to chase. Bet 4/5 pot if that opponent chases a lot.

If you are relatively sure they have some kind of made hand of mediocre strength, and they tend to puss out on the river, fire away a big river bet with nothing to get them off their hand.

Give him the opportunity to make a -EV play.

 

[niltes]

there is a lot of stuff in poker. knowing % is fine, but you don't have to them exactly.
approximation is good enough. the real art is adjusting those % based upon what
your opponent might have or is representing. the next major issue is adjusting your
play(s) depending upon the opponent. with the exact same cards, position, and pot size;
folding might be correct against one type of opponent while raising correct against another.
making the correct choices in those situations usually determines whether one will be a
long term winning player or a losing one.

I have one generalization. if it seems like you are having to make a LOT of very tough
decisions after the flop where the correct choice is quite murky, then you are probably
playing too many starting hands out of position. hope this helps.

 

[drpugilist]

thanks guys. Harry that is deep stuff I'll need to re read that again later today.
niltes, I don't think they are tough decisions. I mean even when I hit the flop it seems as though when I bet the others fold. say I bet half the pot in a 5/10c game. when I don't make anything but I have good starting hands they seem to call me all the way until I either fold or they win outright. even when I bet the same amts. it's like these fuckers can see my cards or something!

 

[TonyTotals]

Ive been playing for twenty years. I played for a living from 1998 - 2009. That means I lived in a casino six night a week and logged 60 plus hours per week in the poker room. People can definitely be taught poker once they separate the value of money with poker chips. First you learn how to play the cards, then you learn how to play the people, then you learn how to play the situations. Pay attention to the times you are in and you lose, pay attention to the type of hand you have, what the board texture was and what your opponent had. Recognize these situations because they will repeat themselves. So, don't keep losing with the same hand in the same situation, learn when to fold. Even when you have pocket ACES and the board is 8 - 9 -10 all suited to a suit you do not have. Don't fall in love with A/J and A/Q because they get beat a lot even when an A comes on the flop. Fold pocket pairs under 7 when you are in early position and remember people can only call an all-in bet on the flop like under 5% of the time that means 95% of the time they are not strong enough to call. I cold go on, I mean there are books out there about the strategies behind the game. I learned by losing my money and watching people better than me play. I've been at the table with Phil Ivey, Phil Hellmuth, Negraneau, Men The Master. I paid close attention to how they played.

 

[HarryCaray]

thanks guys. Harry that is deep stuff I'll need to re read that again later today.
niltes, I don't think they are tough decisions. I mean even when I hit the flop it seems as though when I bet the others fold. say I bet half the pot in a 5/10c game. when I don't make anything but I have good starting hands they seem to call me all the way until I either fold or they win outright. even when I bet the same amts. it's like these fuckers can see my cards or something!

hahaha, I have been through stretches like that. Every time I raise with nothing, I get re-raised. If I have a monster hand and even breathe on the pot everyone snap folds. It's frustrating as hell.

A major part of the luck factor in poker is not just getting great hands, but that your opponents get very good hands when you have great ones.

 

[$tinky]

best thread i've read on here in years. thanks HC

 

[HarryCaray]

best thread i've read on here in years. thanks HC

:toast:

 

[festeringZit]

There's really no short-cut for getting in there and playing lots of hands, and learning by experience.

A few things I've learned over the years:

- Position is under-rated in poker, hands you'd play in late position you should quickly throw away in early position
- Don't flat call raises with easily dominated hands: AJ, KJ, KQ, JQ - even AQ is problematic
- If you're the first one in the pot, and you have a hand good enough to call, come in raising
- Don't ever try to bluff a donkey

 

[niltes]

zit, you would be one solid opponent.

 

[drpugilist]

one good thing i did do last night was fight the urge to move to a bigger game. i really would like to learn how to play properly with all of the intricacies of the game at my disposal. its just so damn boring seeing one or two flops per hour. is this normal, or was i just getting a bad run of starting hands? considering playing again tonight for a few hours. im sure everyone in the rx would like to sit at the table with me!

 

[HarryCaray]

More advice on bet sizing on later streets. Preflop and flop are more standard, turn and river get a little more important. After all, the pot is generally bigger and therefore the bets are generally bigger, making those streets more important.

First off, this is going to sound obvious, but think about what you are trying to accomplish with your bet before you make it. I mean, really pause and think. What specific possible opponent holdings are you trying to target?

When you boil it down, you're only trying to accomplish one of two things when you bet.

• Get your opponent to fold a better hand
• Get your opponent to call with a worse hand

There are other nuances, namely blocking bets to try to draw cheaply, and protection bets to try to take the pot down when you have a vulnerable but likely winning made hand. These two obviously don't apply to the river though. I am not a believer in betting or raising to "find out where you're at".

So, based on which of the two objectives you are trying to accomplish, think about exactly what hand you are targeting.

For example, if you have AK and the board is K T 9 4 4, you might bet the river for value. But specifically you're doing it because you think you can get called by worse. The hands you are targeting here are KQ, KJ, AT, QQ, etc. If this is the case, and that's what you're trying to target with your bet, you want to bet the most you think they will possibly call with those hands. In this example, you probably don't wanna bomb a pot sized bet because lesser hands likely won't call it.

If you have AK and the board is Q J T 6 2, you have the nut straight, and you'll obviously want to bet it for value. Here you are targeting AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, QJ, QT, K9, 89. A lot of hand combinations that will call a bigger river bet, so size accordingly.

If you have AT and the board is A K 9 9 3, really what you have here is more of a bluff catcher. What specific hands can your opponent have that they will call with? AK, AQ, AJ, A9 all beat you. Any other ace chops with you. There are just not that many worse hands that your opponent will have with which they will call a bet, so I'd likely opt to check back here (or check/call or check/fold out of position depending on opponent).

Same story on the bluff side. If you're trying to push your opponent off a hand, think to yourself what specific hand you're trying to get them to fold.

If you have QJ on an A 9 9 4 3 with three hearts board, and you decide to bluff (because you read your opponent's hand as mediocre strength), what are you trying to get them to fold? It is reasonable that a good player will fold an ace to your bluff that is disguised as a value bet. So tell yourself "I'm going to try to get him to fold AT", and bet an amount that would fold out that hand. There is no sense in trying to bluff out your opponent's ace by betting 1/5 the pot cause they won't fold. Yet I see players do it all the time at lower limits.

If you have AK on a J J T 9 3 board with 3 hearts, and your opponent has been calling you on other streets, it's likely they have trips, a straight, or a flush. So I wouldn't even bother bluffing here usually, because you're not going to accomplish your goal of getting them to fold very often.

Hand reading just becomes so important when sizing. You're probably not a great hand-reader yet, but at least have some conviction with your bet...do it to accomplish a specific objective.

Another important concept when bluffing is realizing what you can realistically represent.
Level 1 is playing your own cards
Level 2 is considering what your opponent might have and acting accordingly
You really wanna get up to level 3, where you are also considering what your opponent might think you have, i.e. what are you representing.

Maybe I'll talk more on that later cause I wanna go hit the tables!

 

[drpugilist]

Yes and yes. Not only those two factors, but also the effective stack to pot ratio (SPR). Let's say the pot going into the flop is $1. You have $22 and your opponent has $6. You are only effectively $6 deep even though you have 22 (because that's the max additional that can be put into the pot by each player). So your effective SPR is only 6/1.

This is an important concept because it helps you determine the cap on your implied odds - the max you will get out of your opponent if you make your hand and take all their chips.

Anyway, as far as sizing goes...it would be impossible to write an all-encompassing guide on how to size postflop. I would say some good general rules are:

• If you raise preflop and now you're making a standard continuation bet, you'll want to bet about half the pot.
• If you notice your opponents tend to call a lot on the flop, but then abandon on the turn or river, bet a little bigger on the flop. Maybe 2/3 pot.
• If you flop a monster hand, you don't want to deviate from the above too much, because any decent player will pick up the pattern. Your opponent should not be able to distinguish the strength of your hand based on your sizing.
• Consider check/raising a balanced range of mostly made hands, but some draws and some bluffs.
• When check/raising I like to make it just under 3x their bet. So if you check, they bet $2, I'd raise it to like $5.50.
• You need to understand the difference between a wet board and a dry board. A wet board is coordinated, and your opponent could have many draws. A dry board is not, and there are few draws available. KdJdTh is a super wet board. Jc8s4d is a super dry board.
• I lean towards bigger bets and on the flop and turn with made hands on wet boards. Make your opponent pay to draw. For this reason I don't like employing check/raises here too often, I don't like giving my opponents free cards on a draw-heavy board.
• I lean towards more slow plays and smaller bets on dry boards, as your hands are less vulnerable and you're not going to get much value out of any draws.
• Know your opponent. If your opponent is sticky (loves to call down all the way to the river), size accordingly. Bet 2/3 pot on flop, turn, and river with your strong made hands. Consider shutting down if you miss the flop, if they're gonna call you anyway. If your opponent folds a lot, check/raise your made hands but lead out your bluffs.
• There's almost never any reason at your level to ever bet less than half the pot or more than the pot. So keep your sizing in that range.

Hope some of that helps.

by reading this again, it makes a lot of sense to me but i dont think im paying enough attn to what the other players at the table are doing. for ex last night i was folding every hand while checking my "cheat sheet" of starting hands and watching the all star game. which brings me to another question. if i were to play multiple tables online as some do, how in the hell are you supposed to keep up with what your opponents are doing?