At the risk of being branded a Red Sox Fan - How sbout that Tim Wakefield..4 year old thread..

[Fishhead]

Once again, many here don't understand the underlying value of Wakefield beyond his better than decent statistical numbers.

1. Tremendous clubhouse presence
2. Reliability par excellence.......he can and HAS started games and made relief appearances in between his next scheduled start to save the health of the overall bullpen.
3. Wakefield can and HAS put opposing teams/players in prolonged slumps after facing him.
4. Much related to #3 above is the positive impact he has for a starting pitcher that follows him in the rotation! Pedro Martinez remarked on numerous occassions how he felt having Wakefield pitch in front of him in the rotation helped him(and Pedro was more than dominating in his time with the Red Sox).

The Red Sox currently have the best record in baseball, and Wakefield has been the teams #2 or #3 best starting pitcher.

Heck, if he were with the Yankees, he may indeed be regarded as the ace of their staff.

 

[Journeyman]

All great points Fish...you just can't measure certain things,this is a perfect example of making points 'outside the obvious' ...you can't teach instincts!

I'm surprised at some of the comments in this thread.

 

[RupertPupkin]

Timmy !!!

 

[Jibba]

People who don't appreciate Wakefield and what he has done over his career need to pay a bit more attention. And whoever made the comment above about innings pitched needs to dig a bit deeper into the stats and look at the context of those seasons. Sure . . . if you're a starter who fills a huge need for his team by moving to the bullpen, it's going to be tough to make 200 innings pitched. That doesn't mean he doesn't eat innings like candy. He's had 27+ starts 7 times in his career. One of those years (his first year in Boston with 27 starts) he had 195 innings pitched. One of those years he had 188 innings pitched. In the rest, he had over 200 innings pitched. From 1999-2002, Wake had close to 50 appearances but 17 or less starts.

Admittedly though, it's tough to understand his value without following the team somewhat regularly. Otherwise you just can't see the things Fishhead brought up a couple posts ago.

 

[zone136]

People who don't appreciate Wakefield and what he has done over his career need to pay a bit more attention. And whoever made the comment above about innings pitched needs to dig a bit deeper into the stats and look at the context of those seasons. Sure . . . if you're a starter who fills a huge need for his team by moving to the bullpen, it's going to be tough to make 200 innings pitched. That doesn't mean he doesn't eat innings like candy. He's had 27+ starts 7 times in his career. One of those years (his first year in Boston with 27 starts) he had 195 innings pitched. One of those years he had 188 innings pitched. In the rest, he had over 200 innings pitched. From 1999-2002, Wake had close to 50 appearances but 17 or less starts.

Admittedly though, it's tough to understand his value without following the team somewhat regularly. Otherwise you just can't see the things Fishhead brought up a couple posts ago.

I made the comment. I did dig a little deeper and I stand corrected. He was a very good mop up pitcher.

This thread started by saying look how good Wakefield is doing and I just don't see it. Last 9 starts giving up 4 runs or more in 6 of those starts. You think that is good and I don't.

Then we start with the excuses (like he pitches in American league, pitches in Fenway and blah blah blah).

Fine pitching against a National League team not at Fenway against and one of the weakest hitting team in the entire League. He got pounded for 3 HR's and 6 six runs in 5 Innings.

But you guys could be right. He is better than most of the other bad pitchers in the league.

 

[BlackBart]

I had an email exchange with a friend of mine on Friday about Wakefield. If the Red Sox and TV38 still do that Tenth Player Award thing--or whatever it was--he should win hands down. All he does is eat innings and get decisions, further bolstering the bullpen. On top of that, he does have 13 wins this season.

No doubt, he was the MVP of the '04 ALCS. If you can remember back, the Sox pitching situation was not even game-to-game, it was inning-to-inning. They'd get through one inning and you'd wonder who would be ready to pitch the next one. If he had not gone out and eaten innings in Game 3, there'd be no Dave Roberts and no Big Papi heroics.

In my opinion, there is a special place for unselfish athletes like Wakefield and Troy Brown. All Wakefield has done is whatever he has been asked to do--start, short relief, long relief, close. Heck, he may have even pinch hit or pinch run once or twice. All that without a single complaint. Not a single peep about statistics or respect or anything. I felt for the guy in '03 when he gave up that HR to Aaron F Boone, but he redeemed himself.

I, for one, think we retire too many numbers in sports today, but I think the Red Sox should take down number 27 from the right field facade and put up number 49. NOBODY has made a bigger contribution to his team in the spirit of team than Tim Wakefield in recent memory.

 

[Jibba]

I made the comment. I did dig a little deeper and I stand corrected. He was a very good mop up pitcher.

This thread started by saying look how good Wakefield is doing and I just don't see it. Last 9 starts giving up 4 runs or more in 6 of those starts. You think that is good and I don't.

Then we start with the excuses (like he pitches in American league, pitches in Fenway and blah blah blah).

Fine pitching against a National League team not at Fenway against and one of the weakest hitting team in the entire League. He got pounded for 3 HR's and 6 six runs in 5 Innings.

But you guys could be right. He is better than most of the other bad pitchers in the league.

Mop up? Apparently you didn't dig much deeper. All you've got to argue that he's not a good pitcher is anecdotes basically.

I love the fact that many people in the league don't appreciate his value though.

 

[wilheim]

Zone136

You still don't get it do you, pitchers all get hit, they all have bad outings, they all win games they were lucky to win because their team outscored the other team and vice versa, so what if his home era is high so doesn't just about every starter in baseball who has ever pitched in Fenway have a higher ERA there. You talk about giving up home runs, well guess who leads the AL in home runs allowed -- perennial Cy Young Award canidate and the Ace of the Minesota Twins' staff Johan Santana with 23 homers allowed. Other pitchers who have yielded more homers than Wakefield are guys like Carlos Zambrano, Tom Glavine, Dice-K, C.C. Sabathia, Jeremy Bonderman, Mark Buehrle, Dontrelle Willis, and two dozen other starters from around baseball.


Pitching on the road this year, how about 7 inning 3 hit shutout wins back to back at Texas and Toronto in May. A 7 inning 1 run 5 hitter win at Texas, a 7 inning 4 hit 1 run win at Toronto, 6.2 innings of 7 hit ball in a tuff 3-2 loss at Oakland, his last start a 6 hit 7 inning 1run win at Tampa Bay. Sure he lost that game in San Diego but so didn't 30 other big league pitchers lose at San Diego this year as they are 31 and 26 at home.

His era of 4.55 is 28th in the AL but his road era of 3.61 is ranked much higher among AL starters and prooves he can still pitch for any team in baseball right now. His ERA during late inning pressure situations is 2.27 one of the best marks in baseball. All these stats don't include the excellent out he had on Thursday against the D-Rays.

The guy turned 41 years old Thursday night when he beat Tampa Bay and in my book he is worth every cent and then some that the Red Sox are paying him.

No one says the guy is the second coming of Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax but he is still a steady performer that a lot of managers will feel real comfortable sending out there every 5th day.


wil.

 

[oldmanshuckle]

The major downside of Wake is that sticks you with the corpse formally known as Doug Mirabelli.

 

[festeringZit]

It's not Wake's fault catchers can't catch his shit.

 

[zone136]

You still don't get it do you, pitchers all get hit, they all have bad outings, they all win games they were lucky to win because their team outscored the other team and vice versa, so what if his home era is high so doesn't just about every starter in baseball who has ever pitched in Fenway have a higher ERA there. You talk about giving up home runs, well guess who leads the AL in home runs allowed -- perennial Cy Young Award canidate and the Ace of the Minesota Twins' staff Johan Santana with 23 homers allowed. Other pitchers who have yielded more homers than Wakefield are guys like Carlos Zambrano, Tom Glavine, Dice-K, C.C. Sabathia, Jeremy Bonderman, Mark Buehrle, Dontrelle Willis, and two dozen other starters from around baseball.


Pitching on the road this year, how about 7 inning 3 hit shutout wins back to back at Texas and Toronto in May. A 7 inning 1 run 5 hitter win at Texas, a 7 inning 4 hit 1 run win at Toronto, 6.2 innings of 7 hit ball in a tuff 3-2 loss at Oakland, his last start a 6 hit 7 inning 1run win at Tampa Bay. Sure he lost that game in San Diego but so didn't 30 other big league pitchers lose at San Diego this year as they are 31 and 26 at home.

His era of 4.55 is 28th in the AL but his road era of 3.61 is ranked much higher among AL starters and prooves he can still pitch for any team in baseball right now. His ERA during late inning pressure situations is 2.27 one of the best marks in baseball. All these stats don't include the excellent out he had on Thursday against the D-Rays.

The guy turned 41 years old Thursday night when he beat Tampa Bay and in my book he is worth every cent and then some that the Red Sox are paying him.

No one says the guy is the second coming of Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax but he is still a steady performer that a lot of managers will feel real comfortable sending out there every 5th day.


wil.

Was he worth the 4 millon they paid him last yeat to to go 7-11 with era
4.63.

Do me a favor and stop posting the reason he sucks. His ERA is 4.55. does'nt matter how it got there unless he gave 12 runs in one start and pitched good in the rest of his starts.

But I understand how much he helped the bullpen over the past 5 seasons
the 4 games he relieved over that time made the Redsox who they are.


And the next time someone mentions Maddux and Wakefield in the same sentence I am done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0

 

[zone136]

You still don't get it do you, pitchers all get hit, they all have bad outings, they all win games they were lucky to win because their team outscored the other team and vice versa, so what if his home era is high so doesn't just about every starter in baseball who has ever pitched in Fenway have a higher ERA there. You talk about giving up home runs, well guess who leads the AL in home runs allowed -- perennial Cy Young Award canidate and the Ace of the Minesota Twins' staff Johan Santana with 23 homers allowed. Other pitchers who have yielded more homers than Wakefield are guys like Carlos Zambrano, Tom Glavine, Dice-K, C.C. Sabathia, Jeremy Bonderman, Mark Buehrle, Dontrelle Willis, and two dozen other starters from around baseball.


Pitching on the road this year, how about 7 inning 3 hit shutout wins back to back at Texas and Toronto in May. A 7 inning 1 run 5 hitter win at Texas, a 7 inning 4 hit 1 run win at Toronto, 6.2 innings of 7 hit ball in a tuff 3-2 loss at Oakland, his last start a 6 hit 7 inning 1run win at Tampa Bay. Sure he lost that game in San Diego but so didn't 30 other big league pitchers lose at San Diego this year as they are 31 and 26 at home.

His era of 4.55 is 28th in the AL but his road era of 3.61 is ranked much higher among AL starters and prooves he can still pitch for any team in baseball right now. His ERA during late inning pressure situations is 2.27 one of the best marks in baseball. All these stats don't include the excellent out he had on Thursday against the D-Rays.

The guy turned 41 years old Thursday night when he beat Tampa Bay and in my book he is worth every cent and then some that the Red Sox are paying him.

No one says the guy is the second coming of Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax but he is still a steady performer that a lot of managers will feel real comfortable sending out there every 5th day.


wil.

I guess you would agree he shouldn't pitch in FenWay.

Although his has a better win loss record and era at Fenway over past 3 years.

 

[wilheim]

Greg Maddux and Tim Wakefield are about the same age aren't they.



wil..

 

[Jibba]

For someone so adamant, zone136 really hasn't been able to make a single valid point.

 

[wilheim]

Jibba, that is very true and makes it a waste of time to discuss BB with him.

He is concerned about the Greg Maddux who is 7-8 this year with a 4.20 ERA. The guy who earning $10M who has only gotten past the 6th inning once in his last 15 starts and that was on June 27 when he went 7 innings against SF Giants. Greg ventured into the hitter friendly American League on May19th up in Safeco Field in Seattle and gave up 12 hits, 2 of them homers, and 7 runs in 3.2 innings. Greg also got the loss in an 11-4 shellacking the Padres took at the hands of the Devil Rays in Tropicana Field on June 12th but don't ever mention Greg in the same sentence with Tim Wakefield, lest you commit baseball blasphemy.


Seriously I know Maddux was a great pitcher and a sure fire Hall of Famer but for $10M this year his 7-8 record attached to 4.20 ERA in the NL especially, should make whoever signs his checks want to puke every two weeks when these players get paid.



wil...hno:

 

[Jibba]

Couldn't agree more Wil. I could see him being defensive if your thread was meant to bash his team or something like that, but that's not the case. You're just giving props to a good pitcher who's value isn't as obvious as your typical strikeout pitcher (for example). This isn't a discussion about who was a better pitcher in the early 90's. I mean, I look at their stats for this year and if I didn't know better, I couldn't tell one from the other, aside from the walks. And the stats kind of make clear who pitchers in a hitter's park and who pitchers in a pitcher's park. Finally, like you've been pointing out, most baseball fans would be hard pressed to tell you which of these pitchers is the one making $10 million and which is making $4 million.

Pitcher A: 138.1 IPs, 136 hits, 15 HRs, 79 Ks, 48 BBs, 70 ERs, 1.33 WHIP, .260 BAA.

Pitcher B: 137 IPs, 152 hits, 10 HRs, 71 Ks, 21 BBs, 64 ERs, 1.26 WHIP, .285 BAA.

 

[wilheim]

Jibba - interesting comparision unless your the guy paying the $10M

The funny thing about my joke post above:

Greg Maddux and Tim Wakefield are about the same age aren't they.

That is actually very true as Maddux was born on April 14th and Wakefield August 2nd in 1966...

Essentially I was trying to point ut that Wakfield is not just a homer who wins at Fenway only but can be counted on to give his all where ever he is handed the ball. Last year he had a serious rib injury and it did show in his numbers, but as we both know he is by a long shot not the first palyer to have a bad year because he tried to play hurt.


A lot of times these discussions about a player's merits turn into arguments between fans from different teams that either like or dislike a player because of the uniform he wears and not the actual numbers he puts up. That is why I titled the thread "At the risk of being branded a Red Sox Fan - how about that Tim Wakefield" hoping to avoid the he stinks because he plays for the Red Sox or Yankees etc. type of arguments. I don't think it worked with 136 who strikes me as being a relatively unhappy human being at any rate.


wil..

 

[Jibba]

Haha . . . agreed. I tried to stay out of the thread for awhile since I am a Red Sox fan. I understand that people often overvalue players on their home team because they remember the game-winning homerun or the September shutout against a divisional rival. But giving someone slightly too much credit is nothing compared to wearing blinders and refusing to give other teams' guys a bit of credit.

I actually did a quick search through MLB salaries and the first pitcher I found with about the same salary was the magnificent Kip Wells.

 

[zone136]

For someone so adamant, zone136 really hasn't been able to make a single valid point.

I think I have made some points. Everyone says how great it is to have a guy like Wakefield because he makes his starts and even takes pressure off he bullpen because he can come in relief betweein his start yet he hasn't done that not once over the past 3 years.

I simplly brought up Maddux to see your reaction to that and you basically told me he sucks, then you go on say that his stats are similiiar to Wakefieds. You can't have it both ways.

You tell me he got shelled against the devils rays but these are the numbers from that start.



inn hit runs hr bb kk
6.1 6 4 0 3 4

here is some of the wins wakefield has

6.1 6 4 0 2 2
6 9 4 2 0 2
6.1 7 4 1 2 2
5.2 8 5 2 1 3
7 5 4 0 1 4

And I don't think the owners are puking over paying Greg 10 million. Maybe puking because he has left 5 games with leads just to wach the bullpen blow those leads.

 

[wilheim]

zone136

[You tell me he got shelled against the devils rays but these are the numbers from that start.

/QUOTE]

Where did I say that?

My exact words: "Greg also got the loss in an 11-4 shellacking the Padres took at the hands of the Devil Rays in Tropicana Field on June 12th"

I didn't say he was shelled, I said he got the loss, big differance.

As far as me as you put it basically telling you Maddux sucks goes I guess you missed:

"Seriously I know Maddux was a great pitcher and a sure fire Hall of Famer"


Please at least get your qoutes straight.

BTW. So not it is the Padres bullpen Greg Maddux is 7-8 with a 4.20 ERA in pitcher friendly SanDiego and the rest of DH-less NL. eh?

I am done with this discussion. Have a nice evening.



wil..