Whoever is leaking the documents should be tried, convicted and executed for treason. Giving our information to the enemy is about as low as you can go, whatever their reason for doing it may be. They are endangering the lives of the young people over there defending our right to do and say and write whatever we please. It is just flat out wrong, and only an enemy of the troops would do such a thing
You draw false conclusions that don't even agree with each other Barman. And you reverse cause and effect. Josef Goebbels is clapping for you in his grave.
You label brave US soldiers as cowards for dropping bombs from 20,000 feet on Iraqi population centers. Then you turn around and "lament" how many Americans are being fed into Iraq and Afg. in the "war machine."
The reason so many Americans are dying is because they are taking a higher amount of risk to save civilians in these two countries, and that exposes the soldiers to greater risk. If America fought the way you exaggerate many more civilians would be dying, and a lot less American soldiers. You can't call soldiers cowards in one sentence and celebrate how many of them are being killed in the next!
But you don't stop there. You actually have the nerve to label brainwashed robots who hijack planes and turn them into missiles of mass murder as "brave." And again you sabatoge your own argument. It's actually al Queda and those who follow their sick ideology who are recruiting and brainwashing people, and feeding into a sick war machine while their leaders hide and make grainy videos.
Their goal is to murder as many civilians as they can, in EVERY country they can. Were we to leave Afghanistan today the "Brave" al Queda thugs you are an apologist for would systematically murder 2 million+ more Afghan civilians. You'd know this if you watched the 60 Minutes video I posted:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/27/60minutes/main6716850.shtml
And it isn't anything America does that causes this. You have fallen hook line and sinker for bin laden's phony grievance politics.
SCOTTL: You label brave US soldiers as cowards for dropping bombs from 20,000 feet on Iraqi population centers.
Barman: Incorrect. I merely submit that their acts of killing en masse required far less bravery than did the acts commited by those who flew the planes on 9/11/01. In fact, it's reasonable to say it required little bravery whatsoever to deploy bombs onto the population centers of Iraq since everyone involved knew with confidence they would live to kill another day.
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ScottL: The reason so many Americans are dying is because they are taking a higher amount of risk to save civilians in these two countries, and that exposes the soldiers to greater risk.
Bar: Sounds reasonable. But my elected officials and the Pentagon PR machine have been telling me since late 2001 that all these U.S. military were killing in the name of "protecting American freedoms". That's clearly not the case and therefore why I've absolutely no interest in continuing to fund their operations with my admittedly Modestly Endowed Federal Tax Dollars.
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SL: If America fought the way you exaggerate many more civilians would be dying, and a lot less American soldiers. You can't call soldiers cowards in one sentence and celebrate how many of them are being killed in the next!
Bar: Asked and Answered above. I have called no one a coward. I've merely noted the obvious fact that the 9/11 killers put a hell of a lot more on the line than have most any U.S. military troop - especially those flying safely at 20,000 feet. And of course you know full well I celebrate no one's death. I mourn them all because with extremely few exceptions they are utterly unneccesary save for perpetually fueling the hatred and vengance which drives The Forever War.
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SL: But you don't stop there. You actually have the nerve to label brainwashed robots who hijack planes and turn them into missiles of mass murder as "brave."
Bar: In contrast to those who kill from the safety of 20,000 feet, yes I believe those cats have balls of steel. It's horrifying that they elected to direct that steel resolve towards striking targets in the USA, but make no mistake about how real their commitment is compared to many of us (I raise my own hand without shame) who could never commit such a violent act no matter how firmly we believed in our personal and/or political cause.
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SL: And again you sabatoge your own argument. It's actually al Queda and those who follow their sick ideology who are recruiting and brainwashing people, and feeding into a sick war machine while their leaders hide and make grainy videos.
Bar: Oh, I'm more than willing to acknowledge that AQ is equally liable along with those in the U.S. Pentagon for propogating the perpetual lies which fuel recruiting gullible and otherwise earnest people from many countries to throw themselves headlong into the meatgrinder of The Forever War.
It's pretty sad, sick crap regardless of who is turning the Crank of Dishonesty.
======
SL: Were we to leave Afghanistan today the "Brave" al Queda thugs you are an apologist for would systematically murder 2 million+ more Afghan civilians.
Bar: Your usually reasonable balance in responding to my personal views on foreign policy skids off the road here if you honestly believe that "I" am apologizing for ANYONE on either side of the never-ending killing of this past decade.
We ruefully note that your forecast in another thread of AQ "killing hundreds of thousands when the U.S. leaves" has now jumped by at least 10x to '2 million' In either case it's utterly imaginary based on historical record to date.
How about sometime tomorrow you grimly forecast that AQ will most certainly kill "tens of millions" of civilians (aka...over 50% of the population) when the U.S. leaves?
Or hell....just figure that within a few weeks of U.S. withdrawal they will nuke their very own country and kill EVERYONE remaining so as to show how important it was for the U.S. to stay there and let thousands more American men and women die instead.
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SL: And it isn't anything America does that causes this. You have fallen hook line and sinker for bin laden's phony grievance politics.
Bar: Being as "I" have not been directly involved whatsoever in any of the foreign policy military moves by the Pentagon since 9/11/01, it's utterly moot how "I" might be vulnerable to OBL's marketing tactics.
What's certainly clear is that his tactics have served as the ultimate bait which the Pentagon itself has gulped down hook, line & sinker. OBL had to plot for almost a decade to achieve the deaths of 2800 Americans on 9/11/01.
In the nine years since, he and his followers have done little more than lie in wait as the Pentagon has sent them now over 5000+ (and continually rising) Americans for easy killing on the Mideast kitchen tables.
While people like me plead for the Pentagon to quit feeding OBL and his minions, others insist that it's good business to keep giving them dozens more American bodies every month.....after month, after month.
Keep feeding them and I'm confident they will keep swallowing with glee.
Barman: Incorrect. I merely submit that their acts of killing en masse required far less bravery than did the acts commited by those who flew the planes on 9/11/01. In fact, it's reasonable to say it required little bravery whatsoever to deploy bombs onto the population centers of Iraq since everyone involved knew with confidence they would live to kill another day.
------------
ScottL: The reason so many Americans are dying is because they are taking a higher amount of risk to save civilians in these two countries, and that exposes the soldiers to greater risk.
Bar: Sounds reasonable. But my elected officials and the Pentagon PR machine have been telling me since late 2001 that all these U.S. military were killing in the name of "protecting American freedoms". That's clearly not the case and therefore why I've absolutely no interest in continuing to fund their operations with my admittedly Modestly Endowed Federal Tax Dollars.
-----
SL: If America fought the way you exaggerate many more civilians would be dying, and a lot less American soldiers. You can't call soldiers cowards in one sentence and celebrate how many of them are being killed in the next!
Bar: Asked and Answered above. I have called no one a coward. I've merely noted the obvious fact that the 9/11 killers put a hell of a lot more on the line than have most any U.S. military troop - especially those flying safely at 20,000 feet. And of course you know full well I celebrate no one's death. I mourn them all because with extremely few exceptions they are utterly unneccesary save for perpetually fueling the hatred and vengance which drives The Forever War.
----------
SL: But you don't stop there. You actually have the nerve to label brainwashed robots who hijack planes and turn them into missiles of mass murder as "brave."
Bar: In contrast to those who kill from the safety of 20,000 feet, yes I believe those cats have balls of steel. It's horrifying that they elected to direct that steel resolve towards striking targets in the USA, but make no mistake about how real their commitment is compared to many of us (I raise my own hand without shame) who could never commit such a violent act no matter how firmly we believed in our personal and/or political cause.
-----
SL: And again you sabatoge your own argument. It's actually al Queda and those who follow their sick ideology who are recruiting and brainwashing people, and feeding into a sick war machine while their leaders hide and make grainy videos.
Bar: Oh, I'm more than willing to acknowledge that AQ is equally liable along with those in the U.S. Pentagon for propogating the perpetual lies which fuel recruiting gullible and otherwise earnest people from many countries to throw themselves headlong into the meatgrinder of The Forever War.
It's pretty sad, sick crap regardless of who is turning the Crank of Dishonesty.
======
SL: Were we to leave Afghanistan today the "Brave" al Queda thugs you are an apologist for would systematically murder 2 million+ more Afghan civilians.
Bar: Your usually reasonable balance in responding to my personal views on foreign policy skids off the road here if you honestly believe that "I" am apologizing for ANYONE on either side of the never-ending killing of this past decade.
We ruefully note that your forecast in another thread of AQ "killing hundreds of thousands when the U.S. leaves" has now jumped by at least 10x to '2 million' In either case it's utterly imaginary based on historical record to date.
How about sometime tomorrow you grimly forecast that AQ will most certainly kill "tens of millions" of civilians (aka...over 50% of the population) when the U.S. leaves?
Or hell....just figure that within a few weeks of U.S. withdrawal they will nuke their very own country and kill EVERYONE remaining so as to show how important it was for the U.S. to stay there and let thousands more American men and women die instead.
-----
SL: And it isn't anything America does that causes this. You have fallen hook line and sinker for bin laden's phony grievance politics.
Bar: Being as "I" have not been directly involved whatsoever in any of the foreign policy military moves by the Pentagon since 9/11/01, it's utterly moot how "I" might be vulnerable to OBL's marketing tactics.
What's certainly clear is that his tactics have served as the ultimate bait which the Pentagon itself has gulped down hook, line & sinker. OBL had to plot for almost a decade to achieve the deaths of 2800 Americans on 9/11/01.
In the nine years since, he and his followers have done little more than lie in wait as the Pentagon has sent them now over 5000+ (and continually rising) Americans for easy killing on the Mideast kitchen tables.
While people like me plead for the Pentagon to quit feeding OBL and his minions, others insist that it's good business to keep giving them dozens more American bodies every month.....after month, after month.
Keep feeding them and I'm confident they will keep swallowing with glee.
THIS GUY sums up in less than 200 words what my own clumsy communication style requires much more blather to convey:
(hat tip to Radley Balko at TheAgitator.com http://www.theagitator.com/2010/08/15/hard-truths/)
(bolded emphasis below added by Barman to note those passages with which I most concur)
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Will Wilkinson on Bradley Manning and Wikileaks:
(hat tip to Radley Balko at TheAgitator.com http://www.theagitator.com/2010/08/15/hard-truths/)
(bolded emphasis below added by Barman to note those passages with which I most concur)
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Will Wilkinson on Bradley Manning and Wikileaks:
…one fact beyond dispute in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is this: they have killed people by the thousands. In fact, the two wars combined have produced well more than 100,000 corpses. If putting people in harm’s way is a damning criticism of Manning, then what are we to make of those who have cheered on, voted for, and managed America’s wars? Is all this killing justified or not? Is there a legitimate aim that will somehow redeem all this death? These questions are the backdrop against which we judge the deeds of Bradley Manning and the efforts of WikiLeaks….
This is a big part of the story, but not the only part. Private Manning and WikiLeaks have also created the possibility that millions of Americans will now come face to face with the same ugly truths that led Manning to conclude that he had obligations to humanity weightier than an oath to the state. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have left Americans with blood on our hands, and on our wallets — a truth most of us prefer to avoid.
Unfiltered facts and uncensored video about what has been done on our behalf, on our dime, are “dangerous” precisely because they lead to mortifying moral clarity when it is face-saving obfuscation that we crave.
Secrets sold by a grasping turncoat would not threaten America’s wars. It is Manning’s idealistic exercise of conscience, and the faint possibility that we are as good as he thinks we are, that has agitated the lords of war.
This is a big part of the story, but not the only part. Private Manning and WikiLeaks have also created the possibility that millions of Americans will now come face to face with the same ugly truths that led Manning to conclude that he had obligations to humanity weightier than an oath to the state. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have left Americans with blood on our hands, and on our wallets — a truth most of us prefer to avoid.
Unfiltered facts and uncensored video about what has been done on our behalf, on our dime, are “dangerous” precisely because they lead to mortifying moral clarity when it is face-saving obfuscation that we crave.
Secrets sold by a grasping turncoat would not threaten America’s wars. It is Manning’s idealistic exercise of conscience, and the faint possibility that we are as good as he thinks we are, that has agitated the lords of war.
Let me start by saying that the documents Wikileaks released may or may not aid the Taliban. That remains to be seen. However in my opinion it was treasonous and should be dealt with accordingly.
BO went and gave a speech detailing the initial surge timeline involving deployment 30,000 troops to Afghanistan and then beginning to scale back the surge in July 2011.
Now should the President be giving a heads up to the Taliban so they can plan their response? Or is the President trying to be fair and level the playing field? Or is he purposely giving crucial information to the enemy?
Since when do you announce your intentions in a time of war? Did Roosevelt announce D-Day?, did Truman announce that the U.S. was going to nuke Japan?, did Al-Qaeda give us a heads up on 9/11?
I submit there is no difference between what Wikileaks did and what BO did. Should he be impeached for treason also?
BO went and gave a speech detailing the initial surge timeline involving deployment 30,000 troops to Afghanistan and then beginning to scale back the surge in July 2011.
Now should the President be giving a heads up to the Taliban so they can plan their response? Or is the President trying to be fair and level the playing field? Or is he purposely giving crucial information to the enemy?
Since when do you announce your intentions in a time of war? Did Roosevelt announce D-Day?, did Truman announce that the U.S. was going to nuke Japan?, did Al-Qaeda give us a heads up on 9/11?
I submit there is no difference between what Wikileaks did and what BO did. Should he be impeached for treason also?
Barman is good if you're a fan of bloated and distorted high-minded rhetoric.
Barman's windy post can be boiled down to:
--The hatred of the US by the sickos who murder indiscrimately is fueled by US' immoral behavior [of trying to stop them from murdering indiscriminately], not by a sick culture that seeks to slaughter innocents, and then plant roots in order to plot more murders of other innocents all around the world.
--That the terorists who hijacked the planes and rammed them into our buildings were braver than our soldiers because our soldiers fight from 20,000 feet in the air. Both of these claims are false as the terrorists were not brave, only sick enough to believe their disgusting act would be rewarded with eternal paradise, which reveals the depth of sickness of the culture we have no choice but to destroy. Secondly our soldiers are on the ground and risking their lives daily enduring unbearable conditions. Airstrikes in Afghanistan are rare, and used mainly during battles at targets from where gunfire is emanating.
--Barman's tax dollars are funding the war [LOL, this one is Priceless!!!]
--It took OBL 10 years to have a single success. Here, Barman ignores the fact that we have no idea how many plots were thwarted pre and post 9/11, not to mention how many thousands more could have been killed on 9/11. No one knows what casualties the plane that went down in PA. would have inflicted, nor how many people could have been in the WTCs. Sometimes the buildings held thousands more people.
--Only a few hundred terrorists are in Afghanistan. Here Bar ignores how many more will subsequently arrive from across the border if we leave now, and the message a US defeat would send to the ideological brothers of the muhjahadeen zealots all over the world.
SL gets loose with: Barman's windy post can be boiled down to:
--The hatred of the US by the sickos who murder indiscrimately is fueled by US' immoral behavior [of trying to stop them from murdering indiscriminately].....
Bar: Nope...Not according to me. In fact, just as OBLaden told us in Sept 2001, the attacks on 9/11/01 were in response to the U.S. military's continued and unwarranted occupation in Islamic-based countries of the Mideast. All attacks on U.S. millitary since that date have been in response to the further and even more violent military invasions and forcible occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan
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SL: --That the terorists who hijacked the planes and rammed them into our buildings were braver than the U.S. military who carried out Shock 'n Awe bombing....because those soldiers fight from 20,000 feet in the air.
Bar: On this one, you correctly recite my honest, personal opinion, though I have modified your statement (with the italicized words) to more accurately reflect my personal opinion. I also overlook in friendly fashion the absurdity of describing bomb-dropping from 20,000 feet onto major population centers as "fighting". Fighting presumes that the target has the ability to at least hit back.
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SL --Barman's tax dollars are funding the war
Bar: As noted with self-deprecating honesty on numerous occasions, a portion of my federal tax dollars do in fact fund the U.S. military occupations in the Mideast, but we fully acknowledge that our personal share is probably only sufficient to buy a few cases of those candy bars which soldiers give to little Afghani and Iraqi children after their parents have been killed during U.S. firefights with "insurgents".
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SL --It took OBL 10 years to have a single success. Here, Barman ignores the fact that we have no idea how many plots were thwarted pre and post 9/11
Bar: You're right. We don't know. But if it gives you increased muster for your bluster (on this particular Utter Speculation) then I'll concede that it's probably lots and lots....
I bet various arms of DHS are stopping mass-killings of U.S. citizens on U.S. soil by Evil Muslins on a virtual daily basis. One day soon, the Pentagon and DHS will publish a giant coffee-table sized book that lists the hundreds, maybe even thousand times that they have SAVED US ALL.
------
SL: Only a few hundred terrorists are in Afghanistan. Here Bar ignores how many more will subsequently arrive from across the border if we leave now, and the message a US defeat would send to the ideological brothers of the muhjahadeen zealots all over the world.
Bar: Actually close to accurate in how I feel if "more terrorists" choose to enter the countries of Afghanistan and/or Iraq were my preference for a complete U.S. military exit to occur. Once our military is out of there, I frankly don't care how many assemble in whichever country. If the citizens of those countries don't want them there, it's their (the citizens) job to deal with them. Should they fall into outright civil war and slaughter each other by the thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, that's on them.
At least my fellow American brothers and sisters will be back home in the USA where they can work to actively protect and serve the U.S. homeland instead of serving as mercenaries for constantly changing factions within foreign governments in some sandpit meatgrinder.
--The hatred of the US by the sickos who murder indiscrimately is fueled by US' immoral behavior [of trying to stop them from murdering indiscriminately].....
Bar: Nope...Not according to me. In fact, just as OBLaden told us in Sept 2001, the attacks on 9/11/01 were in response to the U.S. military's continued and unwarranted occupation in Islamic-based countries of the Mideast. All attacks on U.S. millitary since that date have been in response to the further and even more violent military invasions and forcible occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan
--------
SL: --That the terorists who hijacked the planes and rammed them into our buildings were braver than the U.S. military who carried out Shock 'n Awe bombing....because those soldiers fight from 20,000 feet in the air.
Bar: On this one, you correctly recite my honest, personal opinion, though I have modified your statement (with the italicized words) to more accurately reflect my personal opinion. I also overlook in friendly fashion the absurdity of describing bomb-dropping from 20,000 feet onto major population centers as "fighting". Fighting presumes that the target has the ability to at least hit back.
-----
SL --Barman's tax dollars are funding the war
Bar: As noted with self-deprecating honesty on numerous occasions, a portion of my federal tax dollars do in fact fund the U.S. military occupations in the Mideast, but we fully acknowledge that our personal share is probably only sufficient to buy a few cases of those candy bars which soldiers give to little Afghani and Iraqi children after their parents have been killed during U.S. firefights with "insurgents".
----------
SL --It took OBL 10 years to have a single success. Here, Barman ignores the fact that we have no idea how many plots were thwarted pre and post 9/11
Bar: You're right. We don't know. But if it gives you increased muster for your bluster (on this particular Utter Speculation) then I'll concede that it's probably lots and lots....
I bet various arms of DHS are stopping mass-killings of U.S. citizens on U.S. soil by Evil Muslins on a virtual daily basis. One day soon, the Pentagon and DHS will publish a giant coffee-table sized book that lists the hundreds, maybe even thousand times that they have SAVED US ALL.
------
SL: Only a few hundred terrorists are in Afghanistan. Here Bar ignores how many more will subsequently arrive from across the border if we leave now, and the message a US defeat would send to the ideological brothers of the muhjahadeen zealots all over the world.
Bar: Actually close to accurate in how I feel if "more terrorists" choose to enter the countries of Afghanistan and/or Iraq were my preference for a complete U.S. military exit to occur. Once our military is out of there, I frankly don't care how many assemble in whichever country. If the citizens of those countries don't want them there, it's their (the citizens) job to deal with them. Should they fall into outright civil war and slaughter each other by the thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, that's on them.
At least my fellow American brothers and sisters will be back home in the USA where they can work to actively protect and serve the U.S. homeland instead of serving as mercenaries for constantly changing factions within foreign governments in some sandpit meatgrinder.
