"While I respect everyone's opinion, including those who don't see it my way, like always, time will tell...."
shrink why don't we get some serious action down here ?? i will lay my 11 to your 10 on any of the 3 below if money held by one of your top 5.
http://www.betfair.com/
http://www3.pinnaclesports.com/default.asp
http://www.indosoccer.com/head.asp?target=head
can't say i am not giving you a chance with the latter.maybe they will get blown up by terrorists.
shrink why don't we get some serious action down here ?? i will lay my 11 to your 10 on any of the 3 below if money held by one of your top 5.
http://www.betfair.com/
http://www3.pinnaclesports.com/default.asp
http://www.indosoccer.com/head.asp?target=head
can't say i am not giving you a chance with the latter.maybe they will get blown up by terrorists.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrick McIrish:
That last sentence in Franks post is a common belief but it is not true. Once you get out of off-shore here and into the pick forums there are more SQ's per square inch than Mrs Thunderbrook's geometry class. Have you even looked at any of the records being kept? LOL. Last year 2 guys won in baseball out of over 25, that number _may_ rise to 4 this year. Only one guy won in the NBA out of the whole group and so on. I know these aren't necessarily proof but trust me these are ripe stomping grounds for books, I see the numbers. Hang out down there a while and then tell me what you think.
Up here in off-shore I wouldn't want to open a book with this clientele (as most here are fairly sharp and informed) but I'd take just about everyone who posts predominately in the pick forums. Including me. Just my opinion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For books who live off "BONUS HOPPERS" portal and forum sites like these are GREAT.
But the smart marketers stay away from seasoned players who know how to 'work' the system. It's a small margin business that depends on volume for success.
That last sentence in Franks post is a common belief but it is not true. Once you get out of off-shore here and into the pick forums there are more SQ's per square inch than Mrs Thunderbrook's geometry class. Have you even looked at any of the records being kept? LOL. Last year 2 guys won in baseball out of over 25, that number _may_ rise to 4 this year. Only one guy won in the NBA out of the whole group and so on. I know these aren't necessarily proof but trust me these are ripe stomping grounds for books, I see the numbers. Hang out down there a while and then tell me what you think.
Up here in off-shore I wouldn't want to open a book with this clientele (as most here are fairly sharp and informed) but I'd take just about everyone who posts predominately in the pick forums. Including me. Just my opinion.
For books who live off "BONUS HOPPERS" portal and forum sites like these are GREAT.
But the smart marketers stay away from seasoned players who know how to 'work' the system. It's a small margin business that depends on volume for success.
Kid - I don't disagree with any of that. Only thing I believe different is I don't think there are a lot of seasoned "bonus hoppers" down in the pick forums here. They are down there because they like to give out their plays and because they have opinions on games. Games they want to bet. Don't think the majority of them either know how to work the system or would be interested if they did. There are some regulars up here in the off-shore forums who know their way around but not so much down below. Anyway just my opinion on this, I could be wrong.
This thread started with
“I strongly believe that within two years or less, we will have a new leader in this industry...”
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and have captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
2. They NEVER limit the action of winners, syndicates, or wise guys
3. They allow you lock in a profit or limit a loss before the end of a result with most lines available for in-running/in game betting
4. You bet against other players, not against a book.
So if part of the criteria to be a leader is allow people bet at the best odds/lines, never to limit or close wise guy action, give players the ability to act as a bookmaker and “short” bets that they cant anywhere else, etc then in 2 years from now an exchange will be right up there.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:56 AM.]
“I strongly believe that within two years or less, we will have a new leader in this industry...”
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and have captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
2. They NEVER limit the action of winners, syndicates, or wise guys
3. They allow you lock in a profit or limit a loss before the end of a result with most lines available for in-running/in game betting
4. You bet against other players, not against a book.
So if part of the criteria to be a leader is allow people bet at the best odds/lines, never to limit or close wise guy action, give players the ability to act as a bookmaker and “short” bets that they cant anywhere else, etc then in 2 years from now an exchange will be right up there.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:56 AM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tradesports:
This thread started with
“I strongly believe that within two years or less, we will have a new leader in this industry...”
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
2. They NEVER limit the action of winners, syndicates, or wise guys
3. They allow you lock in a profit or limit a loss before the end of a result with most lines available for in-running/in game betting
4. You bet against other players, not against a book.
So if part of the criteria to be a leader is allow people bet at the best odds/lines, never to limit or close wise guy action, give players the ability to act as a bookmaker and “short” bets that they cant anywhere else, etc then in 2 years from now an exchange will be right up there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting you bring up P2P wagering - which seems to be 'all the rave' of late with a number of major players becoming involved.
Personally, I'm not sold that it will be anything more than a nice little side business (perhaps a very profitable one)that the major books will offer. Why?
- Like online poker, P2P is dependent on a 'critcal mass' or 'market'. That is, it will fail if punters don't have the ability to place any given wager at any time on any given event. This 'critical mass' will be very difficult for any one particular site to achieve, and as more players move towards offering this model, the more 'fragmented' the market shall become. The majority of players don't want to 'shop' for prices. They want to place their bet and watch their team.
- When punters offer 'short' positions the grading of the event will become a MAJOR issue for the P2P betting sites. Ultimately, someone os going to have to mitigate disputes and grade these wagers, some I expect to be quite exotic in nature. Because of that, sites will have to limit the bet offerings that punters can make to one another for the sake of administration. That alone takes away much of the appeal of true P2P betting.
- Limited "in game" betting will eventually be offered by most of the larger books. This will cover players wanting to hedge their bets.
While I do believe that these exchanges will exist in the future, I don't expect them to dominate the market in any sense of the word.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:56 AM.]
This thread started with
“I strongly believe that within two years or less, we will have a new leader in this industry...”
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
2. They NEVER limit the action of winners, syndicates, or wise guys
3. They allow you lock in a profit or limit a loss before the end of a result with most lines available for in-running/in game betting
4. You bet against other players, not against a book.
So if part of the criteria to be a leader is allow people bet at the best odds/lines, never to limit or close wise guy action, give players the ability to act as a bookmaker and “short” bets that they cant anywhere else, etc then in 2 years from now an exchange will be right up there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting you bring up P2P wagering - which seems to be 'all the rave' of late with a number of major players becoming involved.
Personally, I'm not sold that it will be anything more than a nice little side business (perhaps a very profitable one)that the major books will offer. Why?
- Like online poker, P2P is dependent on a 'critcal mass' or 'market'. That is, it will fail if punters don't have the ability to place any given wager at any time on any given event. This 'critical mass' will be very difficult for any one particular site to achieve, and as more players move towards offering this model, the more 'fragmented' the market shall become. The majority of players don't want to 'shop' for prices. They want to place their bet and watch their team.
- When punters offer 'short' positions the grading of the event will become a MAJOR issue for the P2P betting sites. Ultimately, someone os going to have to mitigate disputes and grade these wagers, some I expect to be quite exotic in nature. Because of that, sites will have to limit the bet offerings that punters can make to one another for the sake of administration. That alone takes away much of the appeal of true P2P betting.
- Limited "in game" betting will eventually be offered by most of the larger books. This will cover players wanting to hedge their bets.
While I do believe that these exchanges will exist in the future, I don't expect them to dominate the market in any sense of the word.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:56 AM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by forgi:
BoDog has another BIG plus.
They are listing lines on BLOOMBERG. Where do you catch a larger Number of Squares with only one thing bigger then theire gambling habit, called « bankroll »<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wallstreet.com Sportsbook was on Bloomberg's closed terminals for two years... I think they dropped it as being too expensive or got a poor return.
BoDog has another BIG plus.
They are listing lines on BLOOMBERG. Where do you catch a larger Number of Squares with only one thing bigger then theire gambling habit, called « bankroll »<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wallstreet.com Sportsbook was on Bloomberg's closed terminals for two years... I think they dropped it as being too expensive or got a poor return.
Acidkid.
I have no particular issue with anything you say, and your point about critical mass is very well made.
Just as eBay dominates the online auction space, (even though operators like Yahoo and others who offer similar services and who have more traffic have not gained the critical mass that eBay has) only a few betting exchanges will dominate the exchange business, while many may offer P2P services. But this is not to say betting exchanges will dominate sports betting in totality.
While certain players value highly the services the exchange highly, many others, particularly those who are less sensitive to odds/lines or have no expectation of having their limits cut as an example see little additional value in using an exchange over their book.
Best of luck this Football season to all.
I have no particular issue with anything you say, and your point about critical mass is very well made.
Just as eBay dominates the online auction space, (even though operators like Yahoo and others who offer similar services and who have more traffic have not gained the critical mass that eBay has) only a few betting exchanges will dominate the exchange business, while many may offer P2P services. But this is not to say betting exchanges will dominate sports betting in totality.
While certain players value highly the services the exchange highly, many others, particularly those who are less sensitive to odds/lines or have no expectation of having their limits cut as an example see little additional value in using an exchange over their book.
Best of luck this Football season to all.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tradesports:
Acidkid.
I have no particular issue with anything you say, and your point about critical mass is very well made.
Just as eBay dominates the online auction space, (even though operators like Yahoo and others who offer similar services and who have more traffic have not gained the critical mass that eBay has) only a few betting exchanges will dominate the exchange business, while many may offer P2P services. But this is not to say betting exchanges will dominate sports betting in totality.
While certain players value highly the services the exchange highly, many others, particularly those who are less sensitive to odds/lines or have no expectation of having their limits cut as an example see little additional value in using an exchange over their book.
Best of luck this Football season to all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I absolutely belive that if P2P is going to be successful, it will have to be dominated by a few operators. You simply can't have the "cookie cutter" approach that was rampant in the online SB and Casino industry a few years back.
Good luck to you folks at TradeSports!
Acidkid.
I have no particular issue with anything you say, and your point about critical mass is very well made.
Just as eBay dominates the online auction space, (even though operators like Yahoo and others who offer similar services and who have more traffic have not gained the critical mass that eBay has) only a few betting exchanges will dominate the exchange business, while many may offer P2P services. But this is not to say betting exchanges will dominate sports betting in totality.
While certain players value highly the services the exchange highly, many others, particularly those who are less sensitive to odds/lines or have no expectation of having their limits cut as an example see little additional value in using an exchange over their book.
Best of luck this Football season to all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I absolutely belive that if P2P is going to be successful, it will have to be dominated by a few operators. You simply can't have the "cookie cutter" approach that was rampant in the online SB and Casino industry a few years back.
Good luck to you folks at TradeSports!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tradesports:
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and have captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please elabolate. Does somebody have -104 sides that I don't know about (20% better than Pin's -105
).
Thanks.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:55 AM.]
Perhaps before the leader can be decided the criteria of “What makes you the leader” needs to be fully decided.
In the UK for example, betting exchanges like Bet Fair, TradeSports and have captured approx 20% of the total business in a little over 2 years. Why?
1. The odds / lines typically offer much better value, upto 20% better
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please elabolate. Does somebody have -104 sides that I don't know about (20% better than Pin's -105
Thanks.
[This message was edited by Patrick McIrish on November 18, 2003 at 09:55 AM.]
betting exchanges are person to person betting sites not bookies as such.
http://www.betfair.com/
charges commission on a sliding scale on net winning action on any event. the comm varies from 5% down to 2% based on discounted past turnover. at 5% it is equivalent to a 105 line for even money shots.
advantages are you can choose a price you wish to bet at and then may or may not get set. also you can trade a line so lay something at 1.95 and then back it at 2.05 ( maybe ).
shopping / waiting for a better price will often make the equivalent line < 105.
http://www.betfair.com/
charges commission on a sliding scale on net winning action on any event. the comm varies from 5% down to 2% based on discounted past turnover. at 5% it is equivalent to a 105 line for even money shots.
advantages are you can choose a price you wish to bet at and then may or may not get set. also you can trade a line so lay something at 1.95 and then back it at 2.05 ( maybe ).
shopping / waiting for a better price will often make the equivalent line < 105.
This is a dumb thread.
No book will EVER be the BEST at EVERYTHING and have the MOST HANDLE, and MAKE the MOST NET MONEY, and NEVER KICK WINNERS OUT, and offer the MOST INCENTIVES and FREE BENEFITS HAVE DIME BASES, etc etc etc.
Too many conflicting criteria.
PICK A FEW BOOKS THAT HAVE 4 TO 5 Years of GREAT PAYING HISTORY, offer fair lines and have good customer service and enjoy the games.
JC
No book will EVER be the BEST at EVERYTHING and have the MOST HANDLE, and MAKE the MOST NET MONEY, and NEVER KICK WINNERS OUT, and offer the MOST INCENTIVES and FREE BENEFITS HAVE DIME BASES, etc etc etc.
Too many conflicting criteria.
PICK A FEW BOOKS THAT HAVE 4 TO 5 Years of GREAT PAYING HISTORY, offer fair lines and have good customer service and enjoy the games.
JC
Hi Lander,
[/QUOTE]
Please elabolate. Does somebody have -104 sides that I don't know about (20% better than Pin's -105
).
Thanks.[/QUOTE]
With person to person betting you will often see players willing to "lay" -104 or better. A player who has an opinion does not need to take a vig that a Sportsbook understandably needs to.
Many of our members will enter the bet they want, (say they want to bet at –104) onto the exchange. They will leave that bet on the exchange and if the order is reasonable other players with opposing views will take the other side.
Perhaps P2P betting can respectfully be considered putting a player in control.
· The player decides the odds he bets at, if reasonable he gets action
· The player decides the amount of action
· The player decides to take profits or cut losses during the game
· The player decides if he wants to bet any selection to win or lose. E.g. bet on a golfer to lose a match, tourney etc.
[/QUOTE]
Please elabolate. Does somebody have -104 sides that I don't know about (20% better than Pin's -105
Thanks.[/QUOTE]
With person to person betting you will often see players willing to "lay" -104 or better. A player who has an opinion does not need to take a vig that a Sportsbook understandably needs to.
Many of our members will enter the bet they want, (say they want to bet at –104) onto the exchange. They will leave that bet on the exchange and if the order is reasonable other players with opposing views will take the other side.
Perhaps P2P betting can respectfully be considered putting a player in control.
· The player decides the odds he bets at, if reasonable he gets action
· The player decides the amount of action
· The player decides to take profits or cut losses during the game
· The player decides if he wants to bet any selection to win or lose. E.g. bet on a golfer to lose a match, tourney etc.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hache man:
By Inside The Pylons <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope JJ doesn't attack me , but "in a couple of years", I think 5Dimes "could" become a #1 book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_I actually think the opposite about 5dimes, that they may go downhill.Their customer service stinks, and bonehead Tony is the biggest jerk I've ever dealt or talked with dealing with a sportsbook._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree Hache man. 5Dimes could never advance and their biggest liability is poor management (Tony)- one of the worst I've ever dealt with. Extremely abrasive causing clients to close accounts as I did immediately after speaking with him.
By Inside The Pylons <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope JJ doesn't attack me , but "in a couple of years", I think 5Dimes "could" become a #1 book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_I actually think the opposite about 5dimes, that they may go downhill.Their customer service stinks, and bonehead Tony is the biggest jerk I've ever dealt or talked with dealing with a sportsbook._<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree Hache man. 5Dimes could never advance and their biggest liability is poor management (Tony)- one of the worst I've ever dealt with. Extremely abrasive causing clients to close accounts as I did immediately after speaking with him.
