VIP Sportsbook

Samurai · May 18, 2003

Buzzsaw:

I've given you several opportunities to politely back out of this thread, but you keep on coming. I tend to get a lot less polite when someone with an agenda tries to run cover for a book that hasn't been honest.

I asked you 3 specific questions in my last post to you, and instead of answering any of them you try putting words in my mouth and making subtle accusations. Here's those 3 questions from my last post to you, just in case you might have "glossed over it" again.

1) Are you still insisting on playing dumb, or are you just trying to do a semantics wiggle?

I've told you twice already in this thread what the lie was. If you are now saying that VIP does not limit/boot winners, just steam chasers, then come out and say that directly. If instead you are saying that VIP, or any of the books they manage, never led anyone to believe that they don't boot winners, and I just imagined it all, then say that. Finally, if you are just trying to play some sort of semantics game, then spell it out so everyone knows what you are referring to here.

2) Are you saying that VIP, or any of the books they manage, has never misrepresented their policy on how they deal with winners?

3) Do you condone this policy of limiting/booting winners? I know they have the right to operate any way they see fit, but do you as the operator of a sportsbook watchdog site condone this practice?

Looking forward to your in-depth reply. As soon as you are able to clearly define exactly what it is you want from me, I will do my best to provide it.

Samurai · May 18, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lander:
VIP cut my limits to $50.

Allistar said that my limits were cut because he didn't want to cut me a 20 dime check every year.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Were you playing only steam plays, mostly steam plays, or mostly your own plays?

Buzzsaw · May 18, 2003

And Sam I asked you a question many posts ago: Do you have any proof they ever lied?

You obviously do not.

Now if you want to play like I'm typing in invisible ink go ahead. But if you charge a book with lying then you better be able to back it up. As soon as you do we will move on to other subjects including your diversion questions, until then we are staying on point.

Prove they are lying or apologize. It's that simple

Samurai · May 18, 2003

You had your chance Buzzsaw. We'll do it your way then.

You did not ask me to provide proof that VIP lied "many posts ago". Get it right. Your exact question was "What lie?"

I was taking for granted the fact that you could read your own posts (and my responses to them), but maybe I shouldn't be taking anything for granted.

Maybe you should go back and re-read my post to you from yesterday at 3:27pm.

When you first posted in this thread and said that VIP will "Limit wise guys and chase steamers/scalps/middlers", you left out the very important part about them chasing winners....regardless of how they arrive at their ability to win....even though you knew (or should have known) that they limit/chase all winners.

That is a lie of omission, a misrepresentation of the true picture, and that was the lie I was referring to....and the one I assumed you keep asking about.

If now you are asking for some proof that VIP has also misrepresented/lied about their limit/boot policy, then that's something else again.

Even though I have a strong hunch that you already know VIP has misrepresented their policies (since you repeated them in this thread), I'll be happy to help you out as soon as you answer my simple, unambiguous, and completely on point questions.

Buzzsaw · May 19, 2003

"Show me the lie Sam? We both know if there was one you would of cut and pasted it by now. =Buzzsaw"

"You did not ask me to provide proof that VIP lied "many posts ago". Get it right. Your exact question was "What lie? =Samuari"

DANG SAM, You mean when I said "Show me the lie" that was not asking for proof?????

OOOOO-K

Sam, you are playing a 3 card monty game here. I have asked you repeatedly to provide proof but you want to pretend I'm using invisible ink. But I understand, we can move on now that you FINALLY admited there is no great lie.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> That is a lie of omission, a misrepresentation of the true picture, and that was the lie I was referring to... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> WELL THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THAT UP. SO THERE WAS NO ACTUAL LIE. So because VIP did not actually say anything, they lied

I knew there wasn't a lie Sam, it's not VIP's way. If you want to safe face and say their great lie was the one they never told, then OK, no problem.

Thanks Sam, I knew we would get to the bottom of this if we worked on it a little.

Samurai · May 19, 2003

Buzzsaw:

Having some difficulties with your reading comprehension skills, or are you just trying to "spin" your way out of trouble?

To me (and most people with good reading skills), "show me the lie" means point out the lie you are referring to.

I did that several times.

Thanks for finally making it clear that you were playing dumb AND playing the semantics game.

Lie

Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Misrepresent

1. To give an incorrect or misleading representation of.
2. To serve incorrectly or dishonestly as an official representative of.

Misrepresentation

1. a misleading falsehood [syn: deceit, deception]
2. a willful act of falsifying

Half-truth

1. A statement, especially one intended to deceive, that omits some of the facts necessary for a full description or account.
2. a partially true statement intended to deceive or mislead.

I'll leave out the definitions for misleading, dishonestly, falsehood, and deceive.

Now that I finally got an answer to one of my questions posed to you, here are the other two that you keep dodging.

2) Are you saying that VIP, or any of the books they manage or own, has never misrepresented their policy on how they deal with winners?

3) Do you, as the operator of a sportsbook watchdog site, condone the policy of limiting/booting winners?

We're all looking forward to seeing just how much your "objective" reporting of this industry is influenced by your business relationships with sportsbooks.

[This message was edited by Samurai on May 19, 2003 at 02:50 PM.]

DickyW · May 19, 2003

Samurai
You got proof?

Buzzsaw · May 19, 2003

Thanks Sam, Phew! I thought we would never get to the end of that.

OK, so now we know the "Lie" that VIP told was some sort of "lie of omission". So what they didn't say was a lie....you will excuse me while I LMAO! OK, that's better...

Sam's
2) No. I do not know of a time when they denied or missrepresented their risk control methods. (and by this time I'm confidant that you have searched the archives and you don't know of a single case either

hence the now famous "lie by omission" fall back

)

3) I have no problem with books that have reasonable risk controls. I wish they did not need them and I'm not a fan of them. But I'm also not a fan in having 12 players suck out all the value that 11,000 players could enjoy.

Halifax · May 19, 2003

Buzzsaw:

Whenever you have a spare minute between your posts in this thread

... why don't you get on 5Dimes' ass and get them to clarify that "Active for 30 Days" bonus policy that they have. What does "Active" mean ?

Samurai · May 19, 2003

I see you still want to play the semantics game. OK, we can play along a little more.

Do you disagree with the dictionary definitions I so graciuosly provided for you?

Are you now saying that misrepresentations, lies of omission, and half-truths are not really forms of deception?

Is the only way to determine if someone is lying to catch them stating a direct falsehood?

Is it acceptable for books and/or sportsbook review sites to misrepresent a books true policies?

Please enlighten us as to your thinking in these matters.

"Risk control methods"....now where did that phrase come from? I don't remember asking you about "risk control methods".

I asked you if VIP, or any of the books they manage or own, has ever misrepresented their policy on how they deal with winners.

A simple yes or no will do.

As soon as you give me a simple yes or no to that question, I'll go to work on digging up some proof for you....and I sure wouldn't be too confident of anything if I were you.

DickyW · May 19, 2003

"Please enlighten us as to your thinking in these matters"

Who is the "us" you refer too? I think Buzzsaw has answered your questions. Do you have any evidence to provide that they did lie or misrepresented themselves to anyone? I suggest you relize your one of the 5% VIP does'nt like dealing with and move on. It seems to me that your jealousy for not being allowed to play there is starting to show and your looking pretty silly. Hopefully the poster Bucky will come in here and lend you a hand in this matter

Good Luck

lander · May 19, 2003

3 pages to realize a few very simple realities :

1. Sam/Spive are disgruntled and really need to move on with their lives.
2. When it comes to protecting advertisers Buzz has the brownest nose on the net.
3. VIP remains an ULTRA-safe book.

DickyW · May 19, 2003

Lander
and you forgot one.....

4. Lander is DickyW's favorite RX flaming homosexual

VaultedTreehouse · May 19, 2003

Such a good book I have no clue what this Samari guy has as an agenda. I've won good money there and never been lowered or booted. I'm a medium player who doesn't play steam and plays 75% horses there. Very honorable people, feel very safe there. Their customer service is head and shoulders above WWTS which I think is extremely overrated from a customer standpoint.

Samurai · May 19, 2003

Dicky:

If you really think that BS has answered all my questions, then you haven't read through this thread very well, and if you don't think it's valuable to get the thinking behind the operator of a sportsbook watchdog site, then I don't know what to tell you.

As more and more gamblers are getting tossed from offshore sports books simply because they win, I believe it is necessary to FIGHT BACK against what I consider to be WRONG and DISCIMINATORY behavior by some operators.

I believe it is our obligation to let the PLAYERS know IN ADVANCE about which sports books behave in this manner.

[This message was edited by Samurai on May 19, 2003 at 06:12 PM.]

VIPsports+ · May 19, 2003

Thanks for all the interesting feedback guys - whatever your opinion we do monitor the forums and try to learn what we can from people sucj as yourselves who we respect (for the most part LOL)

I want to thank buzzsaw for actually taking the time to contact me and get information to ensure he is (as usual) accurate in his submissions to the forum.

I guess I missed Samurai's call verifying his allegations.....

Good luck to all anyway - I can always be found at alistair@vipsports.com if anyone wants to continue the argument offline - I think this thread has probably run out of steam about now anyway - we could probably find more constructive issues to talk about in my opinion,

Alistair

DickyW · May 19, 2003

Yeah I am really impressed with your fight the fight campaign, and feel bad that books wont allow you to suck them dry. I also feel your pain in the fact more and more books are following the same business model. PLEASE spare me the I'm not a mover, steamchaser, or middler crap. The I'm just a educated bettor shit gets real old.

ONCE AGAIN THAT E MAIL WAS
alistair@vipsports
BTW Samurai why don't you be a real "marter" and take up Mr.Alistair on his offer. Meanwhile the rest of "us" will wait for you to report back. GO GET EM BUDDY!

Samurai · May 19, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DickyW:
The I'm just a educated bettor shit gets real old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you have any proof that this is not the case?

Samurai · May 19, 2003

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by VIPsports:
I guess I missed Samurai's call verifying his allegations.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What allegations do I need to verify with you Alistair? That you don't really boot/limit winners? That you have misrepresented the true policy of VIP and the books they own or manage in regards to this policy? Please explain.

And while you're at it, please answer this question.

Does VIP, or any of the books they own or manage, limit/boot winners that are not steam chasers?

DickyW · May 19, 2003

Sam
Ofcorse not! without seeing your plays I have no idea. This should probably be your first question to Alistair when you email him

Alistair if I am just a educated player will I be booted?

What do you think his response will be? My guess would be "Sign up and lets see"