Since We Are a Gambling Site...

[alwayswins]

JackDee

You bring up some interesting points that I would certainly like to respond to, but right now I'm going to try to stick to the immediate subject and not launch off into a discussion as to whether limited actions by western powers allowed Hiter to expand because they were afraid of communism spreading.

The point here is that there is a madman in a postion where he can continue research into biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. You may think that India, Pakistan and other countries are in a similar position and that we should stop them all. I would like to see that happen, but it seems rather evident that Saddam Hussein is a lot more dangerous than the others. I disagree with Bush on most issues but this one seems clear cut. Let Saddam Hussein's power grow, even under the UN's limited control and eventually it will be difficult if not impossible to stop him without horrendous consequences. I find it difficult to understand why this is not evident. The analogy I drew was limited to where we are now and where we could be if this madman's power grows. There are numerous side issues but that doesn't change what I've stated. We can discuss energy, racism, poverty etc., but please tell me if you disagree with 'the where we are now and where we may be soon' issue that I've stated. If this man releases a biological disease into the atmosphere, after years of research, what then?

 

[silver7]

You know what? I`m worn out by this, no matter what anyone says we ARE going into Iraq! There you have it boys you and Dubya are going to get your war. And I`m sure we will kill Saddam along w/ a million or so Iraqi people, Fine DO IT!! And when Bush & friends led by Ashcroft and Cheney have driven the economy further into the ground, by the unprecidented tax CUT @ time of war, well fu*k it. Never been said that Bush is a deep thinker And this country will be leanining on "allies"? that we`ve totally pissed off, to help w/the cost, then F it also. I give up. Oh and BTW don`t forget the civil liberties that some of us fought for that are being trampled by this Admin. And all this BS re. the danger from Saddam, while N.Korea is the real danger, well F that too. Before I end this, a question for all you Dubya supporters. It`s conceded by most that there will be a need for a large clean up and refurbishing re. the Iraqi oil fields after this is over, and it will be VERY expensive. What company is already in on the ground floor to be part of that contract??? 38 yrs ago this mo. we walked ashore into Charley country, nothings changed.

 

[alwayswins]

Silver7

I hope that you feel better now. It's good to get the anger out.

Now that the tantrum is over, can you answer my question? Should the madman be stopped now or do you think it's unneccessary to stop him now?

By the way, I have several friends who when I told them about this board and told them that I was called a Bush supporter, laughed very loudly. On one issue alone, stem cell research, I consider him the most destructive president we've ever had. It's simply that he is the president of the United States and we are encountering an individual who desires to destroy us and will be able to in the future.

 

Alwayswins,

First of all, has S. Husein been diagnosed with any serious psychiatric disorder, like schizophrenia, psychosis etc? There are plenty of "madmen" out there in the u.s. goverment, in my home goverment, everywhere, that, have access to mass destruction weapons too, who's to say who is to be "blown away" and who isn't, obviously those higher up in the hierarchy. I really can't see how a right wing autocratic dictator of Pakistan or India cannot potentialy be a threat of equal magnitude to Sadam.

Did you know that the u.s. armed forces have been bombing the balkan region (yuogoslavia) with depleted uranium bombs for over a month and a half, and that these bombs are very akin to biological weapons in that they are highly carcinogenic pollutants being radioactive material. Did you know that there was a huge uproar in Europe, Germany, Italy, Greece about the potential concequences of these types of weapons to the local populations? Did the u.s. military decide not too use such weapons again? No, they used them in Afganistan as well.

" If this man releases a biological disease into the atmosphere, after years of research, what then?"

The question is not whether he releases it into the atmosphere, but why are these biological timebombs being researched with public funds in western universities and then sold to the western militia by private owned companies.

The crux of the matter is that i am not buying dubya's pitch on this (another) war. And i dont know what could prove more lunatic an action to aggravate the middle east, the backward phanatical religious zealots of the middle east, with a western invasion, or to let yet another dictator in place. And for that matter, i seriously doubt if this homocidal maniac Rumsfeld, is any different than S. Husein.

 

btw, what's "stem cell research"?

 

[alwayswins]

Jack Dee

First understand that I am a mathematician, not a research scientist. What I write below is a lay view so please do not research this topic just to point out my limitations or lack of knowledge.
Stem Cells are the cells that reproduce themselves. In blood, for example, several hundred cells are the ones that reporduce and by isolating those cells you can begin with a small supply and create what you need. Stem cells are not limited to blood cells. One of the major supplies of this had been aborted fetuses and despite the obvious good that can come of this research, Bush has limited it to a very great degree.

You write of things that I know nothing of. When did the US bomb the Balkan region with depleted uranium material? Please elaborate since I have found nothing to verify this. Why would they do the same in Afganistand and then send our guys there?

Do you think there might be a need for biological research in a society where some are trying to kill millions using biological mthods?

No one has given Hussein a test, but he did use chemical warefare to kill thousands of Kurds. Who else has done this? Somehow I don't see him using other, more vicious gases and biological weapons to kill. Why do you find it so hard to accept this man as being a lot more vicious than most other leaders. Obviously you don't like Bush. I'm not crazy about him either, but he is not a Saddam Hussein. What would it take to get you to change your mind about him; would he have to kill 50,000 Kurds instead of 5,000?

 

During the bombing of Yugoslavia they bombed it with depleted uranium weapons, you can probably find it if you do a search on the internet, and they obviously did not care enough for their one soldiers in Afganistan, but depleted uranium is more horrible in it's long term effects on the animal and plant life and the population.

Sadam might be vicious, and bush, or rather the power structure behind him because it's evident dubya is just a strawman, is not as lawless and criminal, but it's a false dichotomy argument for me to chose either or from bush or husein. Kurds are one of the richest nations in terms of oil resources in the middle east, Sadam wanted their oil and thus killed thousands, so did they u.s. oil co's to protect their contracts with them, and they possibly killed millions in the process placing iraq in a trade embargo and repeated military attacks that have lead to the deaths of, like i said, thousands or millions of iraqi women, children, men. Of course those at the top of the hierarchy both there in the middle east and here in the west benefit from all that, and show little consideration, respect or mercy for their peoples, but that's a larger issue.

I am not on either's side. Someone once said that if exon could own the sun we d have solar energy 25 years ago, and i agree. Instead we have wars about petrol, and money, and guns, and air and water polution, and animal extinction etc. etc.

 

[Tekari]

killed millions of iraqi men, women and children?

That is totally rediculous to just throw out obsurd numbers like that...

 

alwayswins :

you can start your reserch right here. plenty of perninent info you can never see on cnn

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=depleted+uranium+bombs+yugoslavia

us armed forces used the very same bombs while attacking serbs in bosnia, just prior to their attack on yougoslavia.

however, the magnitude of use of these bombs was much bigger in us' war against serbs in yugoslavia.

you can also check UN official documents, probably avaiable on their website, about these bombs and their deadly consequences on humans, plants, etc.

in serbian part of bosnia, UN researches found out that the rate of several rare formes of cancer were up by 500% in the region since the us bombs started falling.

the yugoslavian numbers are unfortunately yet to come.

american publics knows very little about such things and thats why they think saddam is bad,milosevic was bad, and everything american is good.

so sad, so true.

 

[elmer9]

dawnmargo,you must be terrified!!!! if you were an american,we'd send your ass to canada

 

elmer.

your intelectual level is too low to talk with you about anything more serious than chalky hockey plays.

 

[elmer9]

40-17,hehehe

 

just what i was talking about.

your personal vocabulary consists of only a few words. <hehehe, cunt, hobag>

by the way, if i had a 40-17 record, while winning only a couple of units on these plays, i woul quit gambling and go back to school hehehe.

 

[alwayswins]

I'm reviewing material on depleted uranium being used in bombs. It takes time to read it, so I can't reationally discuss it yet.

I do, however, want to address a related topic. I don't believe that my government is right just because it's the government of the United States. I live in the greatest country in the world because although it makes mistakes, it is a country where people are free to live in the manner that they desire. My wife and daughter can dress as they want and go where they want. They don't have to cover their faces and they can wear skimpy clothes if they desire or not. We worship wherever we want to and no one tells them that our religion is illegal. All of us can speak against the government if we want to and no one throws us in jail for what we say or what we write.

Food is plentiful and if I want to eat Italian or French or Spanish or Korean or Chinese of Japanese or Delicatessan or Buffet or anything that is served anywhere, I can find it at a restaurant within a couple of miles of where I live. If I like my car I'll drive it and if I want a different one I can buy it. If I don't have the money, I can go to any one of 20 banks and borrow money to buy it. My college degree was earned at a school that was then free. It now costs to go there, but there is money available for anyone who qualifies. I walk the streets and there are police to protect me and my property if necessary. I sent my kids to Ivy League schools where they received, arguably, the best education in the world. People disagree with the government all the time and they not only continue living, they thrive. There are other democracies in the world and I'm not comparing life here in the United States with what people there receive, but I am saying that these petty dictators and religious fanatics that tell people how to live and kill them when they say no, have to be stopped. Sometimes people will die when you stop these men; freedom is precious, sometimes the price you pay for it is great.

The point I'm making is that we make mistakes. Argue against those mistakes, but don't start by arguing because you think the United States is an evil country. We are the best in the world, we are free people and most citizens of this country would rather live here and raise their children here than any other place in the world. If people think that we are imposing western values on a country by letting the women of a country choose to walk around without their faces and bodies fully covered, then to hell with those petty fanatics who want to run other's lives. Freedom is worth fighting for and we will fight for the freedom of people who cannot fight for themselves!

 

[luxv66]

As far as the depleted uranium is concerned, I would say the difference is in the intentions.
The weapon is relatively new (it’s a type of bullet, not a bomb by the way) and a lot of the after-effects of its use were not compltetly known and still aren’t. That’s always the case with new technologies. Hell, they used to X-ray your feet when you went to the shoe store.

So I would say that maybe those were the effects of its use but I would seriously doubt that the military specifically intended to poison the people and land of the region when they used them. You cannot say the same for Saddam when he gassed the Kurds and Iranians.

 

alwayswins.

very good post, based on good points.

i'm not an american, neither i live in the us, but i have been in your country many times and i loved it.

so, i dont think it is an evil country, but i do think that us administration is responsable for many bad things that happened or are happening all over the world.

no one can explain to me why us attacked so many countries since the WWII.

i simply dont believe that all those countries were a direct threat to the united states.

as for the arab problems, us is the part of it.

althaugh i do not support all the arabs causes, i do think that israel is doing a lot of injustices to them. and they are doing it with us' blessings.

thats the main reason why all arabs oll over the world dislike the americans.

i do not think that it is good for the world to have american soldiers in every freaking country.

i do not think that weapons like those with uranium should be used before they are completely tested.

i also do not believe that us authorities didn't know about the effects of depleted uranium. they knew it very well. and even if they didnt, they learned a lot after they bombed iraq and bosnia, but they stil used the same bullets in yugoslavia and afghanistan.

i do not believe that a country should destroy another country, just because of one man. i do not believe that us will attack iraq just to get rid of saddam. if thats the case, then why are we hearing so much about the iraq <after saddam> ? why us intend to stay there after the war ? if they wont to kill him, then do your job and get out of the country. but taht will not happen.

iraq has a lot of oil.

kaspian see has a lots of oil and thats the main reason why us attacked afghanistan, and at the same time entered the countries like uzbekistan, and tadjikistan.

first because of the oil, second because they got on the doorstep of china and russia.

when i see a country like england, supporting someones cause, i'm simply disgussed.

england ? the same country that used to keep in slavery half of the world. the same country that invented the apartheid. and all of the sudden, they want to fight a war, in order to make a peace. give me a break.

 

[alwayswins]

Don Marco

I read your post and frankly I could not believe that anyone, anywhere could make such assinine statments. Let's look at a couple of them.

What exactly did Israel do? They came to land that was filled with hatred and violence. The came to a land that was practically worthless. They, unlike the Arabs, worked the land, made it fertile so it could produce crops, brought industry and education, made it habitable for all (Arabs live there too!) and jobs became plentiful. Try to remember this - the Arabs way of getting even is to talk some dumb, uneducated kid into putting boms around their waist and killing as many people as they can. You're a piece of work. Why didn't you mention the suicide bombings. Did it slip your mind? Please tell me if you feel that the suicide bombings and wonton killing of all that are around these maniacs, is justified.

The US stands by allies who work to make things better, who give their people freedom. Does the Arabs do this? Where - Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lybia, Iran, Iraq? Your prejudice is showing.

If Saddam is gone, what do you think will happen in Iraq? Do you think that it will suddenly become civilized? You don't think maybe that some strong power block will take over and kill innocent people, do you? Not there, never in those countries; they're so, for want of a better word shall I say uncivilized. Wake up and realize that innocent people would be killed and the country would be in chaos. The US or most probably the UN would be there to restore order. What do you think would have happened in Afganistan is the US wasn't there. Use your brain; a strong force is necessary until they can govern themselves. They want us there.

You don't think the US should take action because of one man. Would you have stopped Hitler if you knew what he would do? Do you think stopping him would have prevented millions being killed. Or don't you believe that millions were killed? That would go along with you opinion of Israel.

You say that you've been in this country. If you're telling the truth, you must know the freedom that exists here. That freedom doesn't come cheap. People hate us because our women can choose to be educated, can become doctors and lawyers, can wear whatever the hell they feel like, can marry who they want when they want. They hate us because we can talk against our government if we disagree with them, can move freely anywhere we want and can better ourselves. There's opportunity, freedom, justice, and so many things that others don't have, that many many people are jealous of us. No women has to cover her face! No man has to worship in a religion he doesn't believe in. You think the Arabs have this. The closest they have to this is being close to Israel where it's allowed.

 

First of all i d like to commend always and don for a civilized discussion of quality unlike most such discussions in these forums.

I d also like to comment of a few things mentioned by always.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What do you think would have happened in Afganistan is the US wasn't there. Use your brain; a strong force is necessary until they can govern themselves. They want us there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all the Taliban where installed by the u.s. goverment, as well as being supplied weaponry and monetary funds. Hence the us leaders installed an ultra right wing religious dictatorship to counteract the soviet influenced left wing. If one does a search in google it will be very easy to find out how back when the soviet left was governing afganistan how the living conditions where much better, women had opportunities for education etc. etc. So, it's not civilization that the u.s. leaders are after but control of foreign economic resources and the ploundering of those.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>you're telling the truth, you must know the freedom that exists here. That freedom doesn't come cheap. People hate us because our women can choose to be educated, can become doctors and lawyers, can wear whatever the hell they feel like, can marry who they want when they want. They hate us because we can talk against our government if we disagree with them, can move freely anywhere we want and can better ourselves. There's opportunity, freedom, justice, and so many things that others don't have, that many many people are jealous of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like that quote by Gore vidal who once said that half the u.s. is not all right wing, there is a right wing majority and a reactionary minority. Admittedly there is a lot of antiamericanism in Europe, more precisely, there's anti-american-superpower and goverment sentiment, not hate directed towards the american people themselves. Is this because we here in europe are envious of american freedom, or we dont have opportunity or justice? Obviously not. And all that talk about american's right to voice the opionion against their goverment is all good and nice on paper but in reality as someone once said again, america is the most succesfully repressed country on the globe, not brutally supressed i am making a distinction here, but succesfully. Succesfull political suppresion is when you can have a 20 year old think that karl marx was one of the marx brothers, or a 25 know all the ins and outs of movie starts and media persona and not know what gatt or the wto are.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Would you have stopped Hitler if you knew what he would do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, i ll repeat myself, Saddam is not being directly expansionist towards any other nation state, hitler was period.

For how long will the u.s. leaders keep spending trillions for the intelligence military complex, for how long will these blood thirsty deraganged lunatics keep spreading war, and terror and death for nicaragua, to indonesia, to chile, to brazil, to iraq, to yougoslavia? The time has come and is ripe as demonstrated by the worldwide uproar against yet another war ALL AROUND THE GLOBE.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When a projectile hits a target, 70% of its depleted uranium burns
and oxidizes, bursting into highly toxic, radioactive micro particles.
Being so tiny, these particles can be ingested or inhaled after being
deposited on the ground or carried kilometres away by the wind, the food
chain or water. A 1995 technical report issued by the American Army
indicates that "if depleted uranium enters the body, it has the
potentiality of causing serious medical consequences. The associated risk
is both chemical and radiological". Deposited in the lungs or kidneys,
uranium 238 and products from its decay (thorium 234, protactinium and
other uranium isotopes) give off alpha and beta radiations which cause cell
death and genetic mutations causing cancer in exposed individuals and
genetic abnormalities in their descendents over the years.
In its 110,000 air raids against Iraq, the US A-10 Warthog aircraft
launched 940,000 depleted uranium projectiles, and in the land
offensive, its M60, M1 and M1A1 tanks fired a further 4,000 larger caliber
also uranium projectiles.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"A 1995 technical report issued by the American Army
indicates that "if depleted uranium enters the body, it has the
potentiality of causing serious medical consequences. The associated risk
is both chemical and radiological". "

That's in 1995, and you tell me they did not know, they knew very well, they just did not care, so us here in greece and italy and the rest of the balkan region will have our lands and populations poisoned by those deranged necrophilous freaks.

"In its 110,000 air raids against Iraq, the US A-10 Warthog aircraft
launched 940,000 depleted uranium projectiles"

And you are telling me about potential biological weapons of sadam, this is as brutal a murder as it comes, nearing the magnitude of a hiroshima...

 

^