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Triple digit silver kook
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Steam, no need to worry yourself with all this doom and gloom stuff.

The fed will bail every homeowner and bank out from their woes.

Now that gasoline is above $3 per gallon, it shows the economy is doing well.

Gold is $800 per oz, but its just a relic that kooks like to discuss.

Food prices rising is good news for farmers.

Unemployment rate is still below than 6%. It doesnt matter if people that used to earn $30 per hour working at gm, if they just use credit cards, they can live the same with a $10 per hour wall mart salary.

Inflation is only 2-3% per year.

The dollar tanking is good for exports.

Just buy and hold and buy any dip.

:drink:
 

Triple digit silver kook
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Financials and homebuilding stocks leading the way lower today.

Freddie Mac below last weeks lows...definitely not a good sign.

Several homebuilders again at new 52 week and multi year lows.

:homer:
 

New member
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..

holy pisswater..>>

dow down 220

looks bafd
:nopityA::nopityA:
gl
 

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..-251 on dow,

dow down 242

wow

we had a really ugly day.. sez cnbc guy

gl

:nopityA::smoker2:
 

Triple digit silver kook
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The sharks smell blood in the water.

Its time for a knockout blow to a major financial institution.

Washington Mutual is another major financial that is in jeopardy of being dropped off a bridge wearing concrete shoes.

Maybe that type of news will awaken people from their deep sleep.

Today is the lowest close for countrywide during its 6 month swan dive.

:think:
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
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"Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful."
 

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.big trouble at citibank..>>

talks about 10% job cuts..>>

my worry; no crap..

my money market fund in my 401k is state street; which now is citi..

if citi defaults on money market funds; which some say could not happen; then there's a lotta pissed cowboyz..>>401k's have money trapped; hard to preserve assets..

jmho

gl

:nopityA::smoker2:
 

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. so, base; are you buying cfc??

gl

:dancefool
 

Triple digit silver kook
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"Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful."

Im not going to disagree with this, but post here if/when you are buying financials or homebuilders.

However, for several months now, Ive been hearing everyday on cnbc analysts calling for a bottom with financial and homebuilding stocks, all the while that sector continues falling.

When we finally stop hearing this type of stuff everyday, maybe then it will be safe to sniff around for some bargains.

Im shocked myself seeing stocks like fannie and freddie tanking like they have been.

The mentioned sectors will be improved after several of the current players are bankrupt.

A nice trimming of the trees is long overdue.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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that was a key level folks bully need a bounce there to have any hope for some type of santa claus stick save

uptrend of past 5 years is clearly broken now

bear is back that is becoming almost certainty, but will be a very choppy ride as are all bear markets and has been so far on this one since it topped out enjoy the ride down whatever side of the fence you are currently sitting on

thread started with following prices

dow 13,265.47
oil 77.50
gold 675
usd 80.75


current prices

dow 12743 -3.94%
oil 97.08 +25.3%
gold 821.60 +21.7%
usd 74.8 -7.37%
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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errr....erase that 5 year uptrend comment

S&P on 3 year chart could have some support in the high 1300s

but since the 5 year bull started the markets haven't dipped this far below their 50 WMA till now

well techies still above it interesting thing about this market is how due to the financial turmoil S&P is leading the markets down

but that makes sense as relentless consumer still hanging in there and buying tech gadgets (and the rest of the world for that matter), while financials implode
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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is the 10 year us bond yield really 3.847%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????

watch out folks some banks are in major trouble
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
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Im not going to disagree with this, but post here if/when you are buying financials or homebuilders.

However, for several months now, Ive been hearing everyday on cnbc analysts calling for a bottom with financial and homebuilding stocks, all the while that sector continues falling.

When we finally stop hearing this type of stuff everyday, maybe then it will be safe to sniff around for some bargains.

Im shocked myself seeing stocks like fannie and freddie tanking like they have been.

The mentioned sectors will be improved after several of the current players are bankrupt.

A nice trimming of the trees is long overdue.

I for one do not think the housing or financial sectors have hit bottom either.I have very limited exposure to either.Small position in Wash Mutual that I got at 19 or so.However this overwhelming negative sentiment being generated is also generating some nice baby with the bathwater scenarios.

As far as CFC ate08...me and woof both agree this thing is bound for 0.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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cfc looking like the tip of the iceburg (plus going to 0 is major news and has spill over effects)

they can bail all they want but only gonna tank the dollar even more

this is not good for US in general

i expected some sort of bounce in the dollar once this thing started unwinding but that hasn't been the case

i mean what the hell are they gonna do at next fed meeting cut?

since they cut 75 bp markets are down and dollar is down significantly...people just getting whipped out here that are holding US dominations of any kind (cash, equities)

"Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful."

as for this only the beginning IMO at the top alot of bears had given up on the short side and just been fine with the fact that we were going to continue to plow ahead with gold and oil outperforming, alot of bears were flushed and aren't chasing down here, markets fall once alot of bears/shorts get outta the way

see FNM for example my buddy was trying to short that back when it was in the 60s and scottrade kept making him cover so he just gave up on it
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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I for one do not think the housing or financial sectors have hit bottom either.I have very limited exposure to either.Small position in Wash Mutual that I got at 19 or so.However this overwhelming negative sentiment being generated is also generating some nice baby with the bathwater scenarios.

As far as CFC ate08...me and woof both agree this thing is bound for 0.


basehead CFC is the ford and GM to the U.S. mortgage market so calmly saying its expected to go to zero but you seemingly think that's A-OK is quite false

the ripple effect will be quite big

still remembering the good ol days of everybody saying the housing fall will be contained, not affect the financials, and will bottom soon....bahhhhh

i'm sure everything will be just fine soon from where we are now.....not likely

next spillage will eventually hit consumer....they could hold up this holiday season with the help of tourists and weak dolllar....but think consumer finally caves in early in 2008....that said american consumer has been utterly relentless so can never count them out
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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here's more insight into what i was talking about with the 10 year yield

------------------------------------------------------------

10-Year Treasury Yield at 2 1/2 Year Low
Monday November 26, 5:05 pm ET
By Leslie Wines
Treasurys Rally on Credit Market Fears; 10-Year Yield Drops to Lowest Point Since June 2005

NEW YORK (AP) -- Treasury prices rallied dramatically Monday on more credit concerns, pushing the benchmark 10-year note's yield down to its lowest level in two and a half years.

Trading was dominated by a fresh set of worries about the impact of deteriorating below prime home loans on the credit and housing sectors; those concerns led investors away from risk and to again seek the safety of government bonds.

HSBC Holdings PLC Monday said it will move two of its structured investment vehicles, which contain some asset pools with exposure to sour home loans, onto its balance sheet. In the past many banks have kept structured investment vehicles off their balance sheets, obscuring their subprime problems.

HSBC also said it will provide up to $35 billion in funding for the SIVs. HSBC doesn't expect a near-term resolution of the funding problems faced by the vehicles that it and other banks hold.

There also are concerns that Citigroup Inc. needs to put its collateralized debt obligations onto its balance sheets. These debt instruments also have some exposure to the subprime market.

But analysts questioned whether price and yield levels were justified.

"But as we know, this market is not really based on fundamentals, said Kevin Giddis, managing director of fixed income at Morgan Keegan. "It is based on fear. Fear of the unknown."

The benchmark 10-year Treasury note rose 1 17/32 to 103 20/32 with a yield of 3.85 percent, down from 4.00 percent late Friday. The 10-year yield has not been this low since June 2005.

The 30-year long bond advanced 2 27/32 to 112 1/32 with a yield of 4.25 percent, down from 4.43 percent late Friday. Prices and yields move in opposite directions.

The 2-year note rose 9/32 to 101 9/32 with a yield of 2.94 percent, down from 3.07 percent late Friday. The 2-year yield dipped below 3 percent for the first time in almost three years last week.

Investor wariness is so strong currently that even positive developments are looked on nervously, including a boisterous start to the holiday shopping season that suggests consumers could continue to drive the economy.

Retail sales on Friday and Saturday combined rose 7.2 percent to $16.4 billion from the same two-day period a year ago, according to ShopperTrak, which tracks total sales at more than 50,000 U.S. retail outlets. Throughout the country retailers offered stiff discounts to entice shoppers.

But analysts warned about reading too much into the figures.

"It would be a mistake to immediately believe that the strength apparent in this weekend's kickoff to the holiday shopping season will translate into strength for the season as a whole," said Tony Crescenzi, chief fixed income analyst at Miller Tabak.

"Consumers these days are under obvious strain, and it is therefore possible that their shopping 'splurge' was done more out of necessity than out of a desire to be ostentatious, with consumers seeking discounts because they had to, not because they wanted to," he said.

To help alleviate any end of year cash crunch, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York on Monday announced a series of steps to increase liquidity ahead of year-end.

The bank, noting "heightened pressure" in money markets that are expected to last through the end of the year, will inject $8 billion into the banking system on Wednesday in an unusually long six-week loan.

There are concerns that commercial banks will hoard their cash and not lend to each other in order to have cash on hand in the event they suffer losses from exposure to souring subprime mortgage assets.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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good read from hussman as usual

S&P has lagged treasury bills for 9 full years now

---------------------------------------------------------


November 26, 2007

Financial Markets Anticipate Recessions Before They are Obvious

John P. Hussman, Ph.D.
All rights reserved and actively enforced.
Reprint Policy

“This month, market action produced a recession warning. Our investment position does not rely on a recession, so we hope that this signal is incorrect. It is quite true that consensus economic forecasts remain relatively upbeat here. Unfortunately, most economists have never fully internalized the “rational expectations” view that market prices convey information. Of course, accepting this view does not require one to believe that prices convey information perfectly (which is what the “efficient markets hypothesis assumes). But where finance economists take this information concept too far, economic forecasters don't take it far enough. As a result, economic forecasts are generally based on coincident indicators such as GDP growth and industrial production, or pathetically lagging indicators. This tendency to gauge economic prospects by looking backward is why economists failed to foresee the Great Depression and every recession since.

- Hussman Investment Research & Insight, October 3, 2000.

A year later, the NBER business cycle dating committee (the body that officially dates – not forecasts – recessions) confirmed that the U.S. was in recession. By then, the S&P 500 had already lost over 35% of its value. Indeed, by March 2001, which the NBER identified as the official recession start-date, the S&P 500 was already down more than 25% from the high it had set just a few months earlier. A large portion of bear market losses occur while investors are still denying the probability of a recession. By the time that a recession is well-recognized, significant damage has already been inflicted.

Two weeks ago, for the first time since the 2001-2002 downturn, our measures again signaled an oncoming U.S. recession. This signal is based on four general conditions. They are all well-known to be related to economic weakness (not the result of spurious data-mining), but they do not have great usefulness individually. They become powerful when they are unanimous – these conditions have always occurred together during or just prior to recessions, and they have only occurred together during or just prior to recessions. Apart from the survey measures in the fourth condition (the ISM Purchasing Managers Index and U.S. employment), the most reliable evidence for an oncoming recession is based on financial market indicators. It is the forward-looking aspect of market action that produces a timely risk signal. I've added specific criteria and levels that produce a perfect classifier, but less specific cutoffs can be used as well, at the cost of adding a few outlier signals (still in the vicinity of economic downturns). These measures are:

1: Widening credit spreads: An increase over the past 6 months in either the spread between commercial paper and 3-month Treasury yields, or between the Dow Corporate Bond Index yield and 10-year Treasury yields.

2: Moderate or flat yield curve: 10-year Treasury yield no more than 2.5% above 3-month Treasury yields (this doesn't create a strong risk of recession in and of itself).

3: Falling stock prices: S&P 500 below its level of 6 months earlier. Again, this is not terribly unusual by itself, which is why people say that market declines have called 11 of the past 6 recessions, but falling stock prices are very important as part of the broader syndrome.

4: Moderating ISM and employment growth: PMI in the low 50's or worse (below 54), coupled with sluggish employment - either total nonfarm employment growth below 1.3% over the preceding year, or an unemployment rate up 0.4% or more from its 12-month low.

For ease of reference, I've reproduced the chart I presented two weeks ago. The recession signals based on the foregoing criteria are depicted in blue in the chart below. Actual recessions are depicted in red.

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc071112a.gif

Allow for "clearing rallies" without speculating on them

It is crucial to recognize that the market downturns associated with recessions are never one-way movements. The basic feature of bear markets is that they maintain the hope of investors all the way down. The stock market often “rides the Bollinger band” lower, becoming more and more oversold, but will then unpredictably clear those oversold conditions by producing explosive advances that are “fast, furious, and prone-to-failure.” The 2000-2002 bear market, which took the S&P 500 down by half and the Nasdaq down by more than three-quarters, included three separate 20% trough-to-peak advances in the S&P 500, and many more 5-7% rallies. We did capture a portion of those, but "clearing rallies" are always prone to failure, so we could remove only a fraction of our hedges. Unless we observe a very broad improvement in market action, that sort of trade would require more modest valuations than we see at present. Generally speaking, when valuations are stretched (on normalized earnings) and both market action and economic measures have turned negative (as they have now), you can expect that “buying-the-dip” will result in a brief feeling of genius and success followed by profound regret.

The other factor to remember is that is extremely difficult to make up large losses in the stock market. Despite a 5-year bull market in stocks, the S&P 500 is currently 5% below its 2000 high. Including dividends, the average annual total return of the S&P 500 over the past 7 years has been just 1%. Risk taken when valuations are rich and market action is poor can produce losses that entirely cancel the successful investment actions of other periods. Though periods of unfavorable valuation and market action can occasionally produce positive returns as well, they don't produce positive returns reliably enough to justify the risk.

As of Friday, the S&P 500 has lagged Treasury bills year-to-date. Longer-term, the S&P 500 has lagged Treasury bills for what is now nine full years. The recent bull market that started at the turn of 2002-2003 was unusual, in that it started at the highest valuation of any bull market in history. While 2003 presented reasonable conditions in which to accept risk, rich valuations also returned rather quickly. The predictable consequence of this is that even a minimal 20% bear market decline from the bull market high would leave the total return on the S&P 500 since the end of 2003 at less than 5%. As I've noted before, I expect that by the time that the current market cycle is completed, 2003 will be the only bull market year for which the market's returns (in excess of Treasury bills) will have been retained.

For us, the only good reason to accept risk is to achieve gains (in excess of risk-free Treasury bill yields) that we can reasonably expect to retain. This is a much different perspective than the one held by many speculators, who seem to believe that it is unacceptable to miss any rally. The problem is that it's futile to chase a rally unless you also have a reliable exit strategy. It's likely that most investors who “caught” the rally in the stock market earlier this year never got out, because the features that would have prompted them to reduce risk (overvaluation, overbought conditions, overbullish sentiment) were the same conditions that would have prevented them from taking risk in the first place. As often happens when the market is strenuously overbought, trend-following signals were not helpful in retaining the gains either. Many of the better trend-following measures (particularly Richard Russell's Primary Trend Index and Dow Theory) are only now turning negative.

Although the market will almost certainly enjoy powerful “clearing rallies” from time to time, the expected return of the current Market Climate (unfavorable valuations and unfavorable market action) is negative. Over the complete market cycle, there are typically many excellent opportunities to accept risk on the expectation of strong returns, so there is no need to speculate on short-term, high-risk rallies during unfavorable Climates. I strongly expect opportunities to accept substantial market exposure in the years ahead, despite presently unfavorable conditions.

Meanwhile, we'll take our evidence as it arrives. My main concern continues to be that investors accept an overall profile of risk that they can maintain regardless of market action, particularly allowing for the possibility of a substantially deeper market decline than we've observed to date. I do not encourage net short positions and I do not encourage abandoning carefully planned long-term investment strategies (including buy-and-hold exposures in index funds and the like). The real issue is to consider now how you would react to a 20%-30% overall loss in the stock market. If that sort of event would produce unacceptable harm or would prompt you to abandon your investment strategy, it is better to adjust your exposure sooner rather than later. As usual, make larger adjustments on favorable prices and smaller adjustment on unfavorable prices, but act immediately and consistently, in steps, until you are comfortable that you can maintain your investment discipline over the full course of a market cycle.

Needless to say, investors having an investment horizon shorter than a complete market cycle are encouraged to allocate their assets away from the Hussman Funds, which are not suitable for such investors.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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man i love hussman

look at his conclusion

"Needless to say, investors having an investment horizon shorter than a complete market cycle are encouraged to allocate their assets away from the Hussman Funds, which are not suitable for such investors."

one of the few money managers out there looking out for joe six pack and really knows what he's talking about

i like this insight as well as far as recession calling and why its always lagged

"But where finance economists take this information concept too far, economic forecasters don't take it far enough. As a result, economic forecasts are generally based on coincident indicators such as GDP growth and industrial production, or pathetically lagging indicators. This tendency to gauge economic prospects by looking backward is why economists failed to foresee the Great Depression and every recession since."
 

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