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yeah two sided futures market with people placing money on it is out of thin air :aktion033

all those futures markets betting on various financials are made out of thin air as well :missingte

well they are better then the phoney numbers put up by the mainstream sideshow press. But they are still not even close to accurate. If all you got to go by is small betting markets for pol futures it ain't much.

Tell me, how can the polls after the debates and the straw polls to date show Ron Paul up a min. 300%+ over nearest candidate and the mainstream "controlled" polls show him at 1 or 2%. :WTF:

How is a statistical variance like this even possible:think2:

Do you really believe the mainstream press is not controlled?

You lemmings are in for an awakening at the NH primary....
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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well they are better then the phoney numbers put up by the mainstream sideshow press. But they are still not even close to accurate. If all you got to go by is small betting markets for pol futures it ain't much.

Tell me, how can the polls after the debates and the straw polls to date show Ron Paul up a min. 300%+ over nearest candidate and the mainstream "controlled" polls show him at 1 or 2%. :WTF:

How is a statistical variance like this even possible:think2:

Do you really believe the mainstream press is not controlled?

You lemmings are in for an awakening at the NH primary....

:lolBIG:

i'm on your side dude

i'm a hardcore ron paul supporter

i think you were implying you are as well :think2:

i posted the odds mainly to bash the fred heads

ron paul still has alot of work to do but he has a shot that's for sure

:toast:
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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scramble to get out at the top? :think2:

visa ready to dump itself to the public

would be 2nd largest IPO if they meet their goal since AT&T wireless did it near 2000 peak :think2:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Visa Hopes to Raise $10 Billion in IPO
Friday November 9, 8:37 pm ET
By Michael Liedtke, AP Business Writer
Visa Files Papers for Initial Public Offering; Sets Target of Raising $10 Billion

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Visa Inc. hopes to cash in on its massive credit and debit card network by raising up to $10 billion in what would be the second largest initial public offering of stock in U.S. history.

The San Francisco-based company disclosed its target amount late Friday in documents it filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, a significant step in a hotly anticipated IPO expected to take place early next year.

Visa didn't specify how much stock would be sold or at what price per share. A proposed ticker symbol wasn't listed either. All that information will emerge in future filings leading up to the IPO.

If Visa realizes its $10 billion goal, it would be raising the second most ever generated in an IPO by a U.S. company, according to data maintained by the research firm Renaissance Capital. AT&T Wireless Group raised $10.6 billion in an IPO completed in April 2000 near the height of the dot-com boom.

MasterCard Inc., Visa's next largest rival, went public 18 months ago, raising $2.4 billion in the 17th largest IPO in U.S history, according to Renaissance Capital. MasterCard's shares have climbed by nearly fivefold from their IPO price of $39, closing Friday at $193.

The demand for Visa's stock is expected to be high because the company's revenue figures to steadily grow as consumers increasingly pay for merchandise with credit or debit cards instead of checks or cash.

Visa's payment processing network is by far the largest in the United States. Last year, the company processed 44 billion transactions totaling $3.2 trillion, according to Friday's SEC filing. MasterCard processed 23.4 billion transactions totaling $1.9 trillion.

Visa makes most of its money from the fees it charges card issuers and merchants for using its network. During the first nine months of this year, the company earned $771 million on $3.7 billion in revenue.

Because it acts as an intermediary, Visa doesn't sustain losses when consumers don't repay the debts run up on credit cards bearing its brand. Those liabilities instead fall to the banks that issue the cards and set the terms of repayment.

Most of Visa's major stockholders are banks. They include: J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., which owns 23.3 percent of the company's Class B Stock; Bank of America Corp., 11.5 percent; National City Corp., 8 percent; Citigroup Inc., 5.5 percent; U.S. Bancorp, 5.1 percent; and Wells Fargo & Co., 5.1 percent.

Besides being a major stockholder, J.P. Morgan also is Visa's largest customer. The New York-based company accounted for 10 percent of Visa's revenue during the first nine months of this year.

The SEC documents didn't indicate whether any of Visa's major stockholders intend to sell portions of their stakes in the company.

Visa's filing came just two days after the company rid itself of a potential albatross by agreeing to pay up to $2.25 billion to American Express Co. to settle a 3-year-old lawsuit alleging Visa engaged in illegal practices to stifle competition. Visa is responsible for $2.07 billion and another $185 million will be contributed by five member banks named in lawsuit, according to the SEC filing.

All the costs of the American Express settlement ultimately will be covered Visa's member banks.

Visa is still fighting a similar antitrust lawsuit filed by Discover Financial Services. That case is scheduled to go to trial next September.

The filing also disclosed that Visa has already paid its chief executive, Joseph Saunders, $10.2 million in bonuses this year on top of his annual salary of $950,000. Saunders, who was named CEO six months ago, has promised to remain on the job until May 15, 2009.
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
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Wow! I've just found this thread and I'm looking for a good fight.



I'm a bull on the U.S. stock market (s&p 500). I'm bullish because earnings are growing and the 15 p/e seems like it's a decent value for the S&P. Are earings growing because of inflation?, maybe so but I don't think it's all inflation. However, I'm not foolish enough to think that the market can't drop as much as 50% from here, but I don't think that will happen. I understand that the bears in this thread are doing well shorting stocks and owning precious metals. I say good for you! I'm doing well owning stocks and playing with derivitives on U.S. stocks.



It seems to me that I'm willing to admit that a disaster could happen and we can enter a bear market but you bears won't admit that we are in a 5 year bull market and that bull market could continue for another 5 years.



Either way I'm looking to contribute my opinions and I'm not looking for a flaming war.



It was a nice week for you bears this week.



Later
 

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excellent post hitman agree 100%

not everybody is a bear in this thread. it's a money supply story. there is a reason why they stopped reporting m3 in 2006. good chunk of that money will filter into certain sectors in the equity markets.....energy, metals, food, infratructure, healthcare and techchnology my picks
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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excellent post hitman agree 100%

not everybody is a bear in this thread. it's a money supply story. there is a reason why they stopped reporting m3 in 2006. good chunk of that money will filter into certain sectors in the equity markets.....energy, metals, food, infratructure, healthcare and techchnology my picks

yeah money supply is created magically and it just filters on through the economy

as long as money supply is good everything will be fine an dandy :ohno:

can bulls come up with any sort of rational argument to make a case?
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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Wow! I've just found this thread and I'm looking for a good fight.



I'm a bull on the U.S. stock market (s&p 500). I'm bullish because earnings are growing and the 15 p/e seems like it's a decent value for the S&P. Are earings growing because of inflation?, maybe so but I don't think it's all inflation. However, I'm not foolish enough to think that the market can't drop as much as 50% from here, but I don't think that will happen. I understand that the bears in this thread are doing well shorting stocks and owning precious metals. I say good for you! I'm doing well owning stocks and playing with derivitives on U.S. stocks.



It seems to me that I'm willing to admit that a disaster could happen and we can enter a bear market but you bears won't admit that we are in a 5 year bull market and that bull market could continue for another 5 years.



Either way I'm looking to contribute my opinions and I'm not looking for a flaming war.



It was a nice week for you bears this week.



Later

welcome to the board

i'd like to see arguments other than p/e's okay and PAST earnings have been growing (past does not predict the future)

as for willing to admit we've been in 5 year bull of course we have that's a fact

as far as willing to admit market could continue in a bull for another 5 years it could but i find it highly unlikely
 

Give BB 2.5k he makes it 20k within 3 months 99out
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welcome to the board

i'd like to see arguments other than p/e's okay and PAST earnings have been growing (past does not predict the future)

as for willing to admit we've been in 5 year bull of course we have that's a fact

as far as willing to admit market could continue in a bull for another 5 years it could but i find it highly unlikely



As a numbers guy, earnings are about 99% of what care about when risking my money. Most people buy stocks because of their earnings or expected future earnings. Earnings have been very good this September/October which means if we are headed for a recession, it won't show up until January if companies start missing and guiding down. Right now Exxon Mobile is the most important stock in the 500 index so as oil keeps rising, it becomes more and more important to the S&P 500 and will hold it up. Financials are shrinking in the index and each day become less and less important. Right now technology is about 16% of the index and at the height of the tech bubble in 2000 it was just over 30%.


People were scared and were panicking this week. Maybe margin calls and option expiration will continue the volitity next week. I don't care either way. I'm not smart enough to time the market and jump in gold, and then back into stocks, then into oil, then into Iowa farmland, then into China, then into Euros, and then back into stocks. If the S&P 500 is lower 5 years from now (inflation adjusted), it's ok with me. I will continue to hold for another 5 years and hope it turns for the better. U.S. stocks have been one of the best returning investments for the last 100 years and I don't see why it shouldn't continue for the next 100 years.



I love to buy and hold
 

Triple digit silver kook
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People were scared and were panicking this week. Maybe margin calls and option expiration will continue the volitity next week. I don't care either way. I'm not smart enough to time the market and jump in gold, and then back into stocks, then into oil, then into Iowa farmland, then into China, then into Euros, and then back into stocks. If the S&P 500 is lower 5 years from now (inflation adjusted), it's ok with me. I will continue to hold for another 5 years and hope it turns for the better. U.S. stocks have been one of the best returning investments for the last 100 years and I don't see why it shouldn't continue for the next 100 years.

Welcome aboard H26.

To all the other bears here, h26 has posted some nice winners in the financial forum.

This thread could reach a million posts someday and it will only get better with you involved.

:banger:
 

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yeah money supply is created magically and it just filters on through the economy

as long as money supply is good everything will be fine an dandy :ohno:

can bulls come up with any sort of rational argument to make a case?

how come everybody in this section of the forum is always tying to classify and label people.....bulls bears lefties righties

I am none of the above, just trying to make some cash and protect what I already have

carry on with your cut and paste
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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first sizable/noteworthy homie files for bankrupcy today

levitt (LEV) a FL home builder

more to come

----------------------------------

maybe the catalyst for the late selloff today is the following stuff started getting ugly around 3:30 est

------------------------------------------------

S&P Lowers Credit Outlook on Three Banks
Friday November 9, 3:30 pm ET

S&P: Credit Market Deterioration Lowers Outlook for Washinton Mutual, IndyMac and Capital One

NEW YORK (AP) -- Standard & Poor's Ratings Services downgraded the credit outlook for three major U.S. banks Friday, another signal that the significant credit slump will not soon abate.

S&P downgraded its outlook for Washington Mutual Inc. and IndyMac Bancorp Inc. to "Negative" from "Stable," and for Capital One Financial Corp. to "Stable" from "Positive. It affirmed investment-grade ratings for the three banks.

With mortgage delinquencies and defaults continuing to rise, especially among subprime mortgages and home-equity loans and lines of credit, banks have been forecasting large write-offs and receiving downgrades and estimate drops from analysts.

Washington Mutual's downgrade stemmed from "lower core earnings from WAMU's core mortgage banking business and the negative trends in the national housing and mortgage markets that will depress earnings in the next year," S&P credit analyst Victoria Wagner said in a statement.

S&P also said Capital One's performance is "highly correlated" to the financial status of consumers. "Given this correlation and our expectation of weakness across consumer-related businesses for the rest of this year and into 2008, a ratings upgrade at Capital One is unlikely within this time period," S&P said.

IndyMac's downgrade was also based on concerns about its "exposure to continued deterioration in the housing and mortgage finance markets," S&P credit analyst Robert Hoban said in a statement.

However, investors took advantage of recent sell-offs in the sector to buy up the companies' stock: Washington Mutual shares rose $1.14, or 5.9 percent, to $20.53, as Capital One lifted $1.25, or 2.4 percent, to $54.15 and IndyMac gained $1.07, or 10.3 percent, to $11.45.

The agency chose not to downgrade its credit outlook on Wachovia Corp., saying its announced pretax $1.1 billion market-value write-down will reduce its remaining exposure "to this highly volatile asset class to $672 million."

Wachovia shares rose $1.61, or 3.9 percent, to $41.92 in late afternoon trading.
 

New member
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Maybe this graph will help those with the pernicious belief that our stock market is healthy and has been in real terms.

newpchart.gif
 

Conservatives, Patriots & Huskies return to glory
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damn VT, do you actually shop with Euros? to you pay your mortgage or your rent with Euros? Did your mortgage or rent go up because your bank of landlord demanded Euros?

Don't buy imports

although energy costs will cause inflationary tendencies, it simply hasn't been too bad to date. Even that has a silver lining, it will force many to conserve energy and alternative sources become more viable.

Bull for life mother fuckers :trx-smly0

hiccups don't bother me :thumbsup:
 

Is that a moonbat in my sites?
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Let's welcome all of those European vacationers to the terrorist free United States.

Meanwhile, the costs of our domestic exports have gone down and are selling overseas while the cost of imports have gone up and aren't selling as well in the US.

Which would I rather have, job security or a cheap TV - hmmmm, tough choice.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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damn VT, do you actually shop with Euros? to you pay your mortgage or your rent with Euros? Did your mortgage or rent go up because your bank of landlord demanded Euros?

Don't buy imports

although energy costs will cause inflationary tendencies, it simply hasn't been too bad to date. Even that has a silver lining, it will force many to conserve energy and alternative sources become more viable.

Bull for life mother fuckers :trx-smly0

hiccups don't bother me :thumbsup:

helicopter ben is that you? :missingte
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
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Damn Tiz if I knew youd be up at 330 am,still raining on the parade, Id have caught up with you when I rolled in from the Celts game.....but in fact there was some shopping going on yesterday.I grabbed some NRG to round out more or less what I needed to have to ride the wave the rest of the way out.No more quick flips unless drastic fluctuations occur,which would be only prudent.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
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The Euro.....lol

Dollar to collapse?

Posted by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard on 12 Jul 2007 at 16:48
Tags: Economics, dollar, World economy, Demographics, Currency markets

Disregard all hysteria. The ailing Greenback will not collapse this year, not in ten years, not in twenty years, not in half a century. There is no credible currency against which it can collapse. (Unless you count gold). None of the world's rival power blocs have the economic and demographic depth to challenge American dominance.

dollars.jpg
</IMG>
Built to last: the US dollar

Yes, we have a dollar rout on our hands. The markets have suddenly begun to discount a nasty crunch in the US as the subprime debacle spreads through the credit markets. The prospect of rate cuts by the Federal Reserve is drawing closer, knocking away the dollar's yield prop. Investors have switched reflexively to the euro as the default currency.

This cannot last. It assumes that Europe has "decoupled" from America and now has the umph to go it alone. German finance minister Peer Steinbrueck played to this illusion on Monday when he professed to "love the strong euro" - (directly contradicting testimony he gave to the European Parliament earlier this year).

Whether or not Germany is really that immune to an exchange rate of $1.38 to the dollar (Professor Peter Bofinger - one of the country's five "Wise Men" - insists adamantly that it is not), it is in any case a foolish error to treat Germany as if it were a proxy for the whole eurozone. In reality, it has become the nemesis of Euro-land. While the Teutonic Tiger is indeed springing back to life after a decade-long slump, it is doing so by conquering market share from the Club Med bloc in what amounts to a beggar-thy-neighbour shift within the euro-zone. This has a zero-sum flavour to it.

France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, and latterly Ireland are all facing very serious trouble. They are at or near the top of the cycle. Housing bubbles caused by ultra-low interest rates (geared for Germany, when Germany was down -- the dirty secret of EMU) are starting to burst. Club Med's share of global exports is collapsing.

Bernard Connolly, global strategist at Banque AIG and former head of economic research at the European Commission (the best informed euro-critic in the City, and the one most feared by Brussels), says Spain will face an outright "depression" by 2008-2009 and Italy will face an "Argentine crucifiction" until it is ejected, or chooses to escape, from the euro-zone.

How has this "divergence" happened? In a nutshell, Germany has gained 20pc in unit labour cost competitiveness against France, 30pc against Spain, and 40pc against Italy since the currencies were locked together in 1995 (EU data). It has done so by screwing down wages, while Club Med has done what it always does -- let rip on wages.

Or put another way, Europe's ancient nations have reverted to type, as they were always bound to do. The elapse of a decade has allowed this to go beyond the point of no return. How is Italy, for example, supposed to claw back lost competitiveness on this scale against low-inflation Germany? Yes, Italy did this in 1927 under the `lira forte' policy of Mussolini, but he was able to use Fascist powers to ram through a 20pc cut in wages. Try that in a democracy. It would take a severe recession to force down Italian wages enough to make a difference. The budget deficit would balloon. The national debt (108pc of GDP) would spiral upwards, setting off panic sales of Italian bonds. The policy would instantly defeat itself, even if it did not set off civil conflict - which it would. Italy cannot break out of this impasse unless Germany agrees to tolerate much higher inflation for the whole euro-zone. Berlin would sooner choke on Sauerkraut.

The longer the euro stays near $1.40, the more severe the coming crisis a year or eighteen months hence -- as the lagged effects of over-valuation turns boom to bust with even greater violence across Club Med. Sooner or later, the markets will twig in any case. The screams coming from southern Europe will be too loud to ignore. Worth noting that Goldman Sachs has begun to recommending "shorting" Italian and French bonds, expecting them to diverge further from German Bunds. This is exactly how the unravelling begins.

It will become obvious at some point that the euro-zone is just a glorified fixed-exchange rate system, not a sacred union. The euro is an orphan, stateless currency, lacking the mechanisms (a debt union, pension union, a shared treasury and fiscal transfers) that makes a currency union work over time.

Contrast that with the dollar, the currency of a nation forged by wars and the ancestral chords of memory (Lincoln's words) - all for one, and one for all. America is a country. (Again a Lincoln sentiment, but now a truism). That massive historical fact makes all the difference.

Ah, but there is the Japan, at last breathing again after its near-death brush with deflation. Now, I don't doubt that the yen will at some point snap back violently as interest rates (now 0.5pc) return to a semblance of normality. As soon as global risk appetite fades again, the yen carry trade will doubtless unwind - perhaps brutally as in 1998 - and some of that $500bn shipped overseas will come home.

That said, anybody who follows the rhythms of Tokyo's stock market must suspect that a sharp appreciation of the yen will cause the Nikkei index to plummet - bringing Japan's fragile expansion to a swift halt. The "Seven Samurai" exporters -Honda, for example, which earns 70pc of its revenues in America - will take a battering. As month after month of disappointing retail data this year keep showing, Japan lacks the demand growth to take the baton from America. Wages have fallen for the last five months in a row.

Japan is already the oldest society in the world, shrinking since 2005. The population peaked at 128m in 2005 and is expected to fall below 100m by the middle of the century. If - as expected - Japan's aging grannies and housewives raise the share of foreign assets in their portfolios from 3pc to 12pc over time, the yen must weaken further. It is the dying currency of a dying country -- albeit a most charming one.

Which brings me to China, a country that is growing old before it ever becomes rich. The working-age population peaks in 2015 - just eight years time. China then dives into the steepest demographic decline ever known by any nation in peace-time. As for China's current boom, you need only know three things so see where this is going: credit is being channelled for political purposes through Communist state banks that are not subject to market discipline; almost half of GDP is going on investment, leading to a glut of factories; return on that investment, measured by the incremental capital output ratio, is 4.4. Much of it is being wasted. Compare that to Japan (3.2), South Korea (3.2), and Taiwan (2.7) during their growth spurts. China is not going to take over the world economy, now or ever. The window will close shut before they get there.

No, the 21st Century will be the American century, just like the 20th Century. Americans may have to tighten their belts a bit after all the sins of Alan Greenspan and the Clinton-Bush debt generation. But the dollar will still be the world's reserve currency long after the euro has disappeared and the yen has been forgotten... Now, the Indian Rupee? Hhm. Another day
 

Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit
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Let's welcome all of those European vacationers to the terrorist free United States.

Meanwhile, the costs of our domestic exports have gone down and are selling overseas while the cost of imports have gone up and aren't selling as well in the US.

Which would I rather have, job security or a cheap TV - hmmmm, tough choice.
:toast:
 

bushman
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Let's welcome all of those European vacationers to the terrorist free United States.

Your US National security services monster is miles scarier than any terrorists.

They point their death ray at you when you land and pop...you disappear for 6...12...24 or 36 months.

Legalised kidnapping.

At least you can still run away from a terrorist.

You're fucked if the security services decide to pull you.

I'll give it a raincheck until the paranoia passes thanx.
 

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