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the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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well looks like opec would help stop any possible deflation due to demand on the oil front

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Feb. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries may cut crude production when it meets next month to keep the price above $80 a barrel, oil ministry officials from four of the group's nations said.

Prices of at least $85 would likely lead to no change in supplies when ministers gather March 5 in Vienna, said two of the four officials, who asked not to be identified because OPEC's deliberations are private. A third said $80 a barrel would be a signal to pump less, and a fourth delegate said $70 would be unacceptable to most of OPEC's 13 members.

The combination of falling crude prices and the dollar's 12 percent drop in the past year on a trade-weighted basis puts pressure on OPEC to reduce supplies as slowing economies in the U.S. and Europe threaten energy demand. Oil fell 30 percent and the group reduced production quotas three times in 2001, the year of the last U.S. recession.

``OPEC wants to protect $80 a barrel,'' said Johannes Benigni, a managing director at Vienna-based consultant JBC Energy, who attended last week's OPEC meeting when the group left its supply levels unchanged.

``I got the clear impression from OPEC that that's the number they want to defend,'' Benigni said. ``It wasn't OPEC's fault it moved above $80, but now it's there, they justify keeping it.''

Oil rose 97 cents to $88.11 in New York yesterday. Prices rose 53 percent in the past year and reached a record $100.09 a barrel on Jan. 3. They dropped 12 percent since then.

March Meeting

Saudi Arabian Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi, who sets policy for OPEC's largest producer, declined to comment to reporters on prices or production levels at last week's meeting. Al-Naimi said only that the outlook for supply and demand is ``sound.''

OPEC may maintain current levels when it meets on March 5, ``if the market is as it is now,'' OPEC Secretary-General Abdalla el-Badri told reporters on Feb. 5 in London. The group pumped 32.12 million barrels a day last month, according to Bloomberg estimates.

The organization, which produces more than 40 percent of the world's oil, scrapped the last official price target of $22 to $28 a barrel in January 2005 after oil exceeded that level for more than a year. Delegates from Libya and Algeria pushed for a price band of about $55 to $60 a barrel in 2006. The proposal was rejected and oil continued to rally.

Concern the U.S. economy, the world's largest, is falling into a recession drove crude lower in the past month. The price dropped $2.79, or 3 percent on Feb. 1 after a U.S. government report showed the economy lost 17,000 jobs in January.

`New Price Floor'

``It is not in our interests to see a recession, whether in the U.S. or worldwide,'' el-Badri said in an interview last month in Nicosia, Cyprus.

OPEC held three meetings in 2007, down from six the previous year. The group will likely gather more frequently to monitor the U.S. economy, said the four officials, who represent nations that produce a third of OPEC's oil.

``Eighty dollars is probably a new price floor,'' said Olivier Jakob, managing director of Zug, Switzerland-based Petromatrix GmbH. ``On a nominal basis it looks high, but if you adjust it for the falling dollar, it is closer to the average of 2006 and 2007 of $58 a barrel.''

The dollar's decline eroded the purchasing power of OPEC revenue as members plan to invest $150 billion on new energy projects over the next five years.

OPEC last cut supplies at the end of 2006, reducing quotas twice as oil fell as low as $55 in November. Prices rallied 57 percent the following year.

``Getting closer to the March meeting if we're in the $80 to $85 range and there is still downward pressure, then they would defend aggressively,'' said Victor Shum, senior principal at Purvin & Gertz Inc., an oil consulting firm in Singapore. ``They have seen that the market can tolerate higher prices. And, in any number of OPEC economies they need the oil revenues of high prices to support their domestic spending programs.'' Feb. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries may cut crude production when it meets next month to keep the price above $80 a barrel, oil ministry officials from four of the group's nations said.

Prices of at least $85 would likely lead to no change in supplies when ministers gather March 5 in Vienna, said two of the four officials, who asked not to be identified because OPEC's deliberations are private. A third said $80 a barrel would be a signal to pump less, and a fourth delegate said $70 would be unacceptable to most of OPEC's 13 members.

The combination of falling crude prices and the dollar's 12 percent drop in the past year on a trade-weighted basis puts pressure on OPEC to reduce supplies as slowing economies in the U.S. and Europe threaten energy demand. Oil fell 30 percent and the group reduced production quotas three times in 2001, the year of the last U.S. recession.

``OPEC wants to protect $80 a barrel,'' said Johannes Benigni, a managing director at Vienna-based consultant JBC Energy, who attended last week's OPEC meeting when the group left its supply levels unchanged.

``I got the clear impression from OPEC that that's the number they want to defend,'' Benigni said. ``It wasn't OPEC's fault it moved above $80, but now it's there, they justify keeping it.''

Oil rose 97 cents to $88.11 in New York yesterday. Prices rose 53 percent in the past year and reached a record $100.09 a barrel on Jan. 3. They dropped 12 percent since then.

March Meeting

Saudi Arabian Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi, who sets policy for OPEC's largest producer, declined to comment to reporters on prices or production levels at last week's meeting. Al-Naimi said only that the outlook for supply and demand is ``sound.''

OPEC may maintain current levels when it meets on March 5, ``if the market is as it is now,'' OPEC Secretary-General Abdalla el-Badri told reporters on Feb. 5 in London. The group pumped 32.12 million barrels a day last month, according to Bloomberg estimates.

The organization, which produces more than 40 percent of the world's oil, scrapped the last official price target of $22 to $28 a barrel in January 2005 after oil exceeded that level for more than a year. Delegates from Libya and Algeria pushed for a price band of about $55 to $60 a barrel in 2006. The proposal was rejected and oil continued to rally.

Concern the U.S. economy, the world's largest, is falling into a recession drove crude lower in the past month. The price dropped $2.79, or 3 percent on Feb. 1 after a U.S. government report showed the economy lost 17,000 jobs in January.

`New Price Floor'

``It is not in our interests to see a recession, whether in the U.S. or worldwide,'' el-Badri said in an interview last month in Nicosia, Cyprus.

OPEC held three meetings in 2007, down from six the previous year. The group will likely gather more frequently to monitor the U.S. economy, said the four officials, who represent nations that produce a third of OPEC's oil.

``Eighty dollars is probably a new price floor,'' said Olivier Jakob, managing director of Zug, Switzerland-based Petromatrix GmbH. ``On a nominal basis it looks high, but if you adjust it for the falling dollar, it is closer to the average of 2006 and 2007 of $58 a barrel.''

The dollar's decline eroded the purchasing power of OPEC revenue as members plan to invest $150 billion on new energy projects over the next five years.

OPEC last cut supplies at the end of 2006, reducing quotas twice as oil fell as low as $55 in November. Prices rallied 57 percent the following year.

``Getting closer to the March meeting if we're in the $80 to $85 range and there is still downward pressure, then they would defend aggressively,'' said Victor Shum, senior principal at Purvin & Gertz Inc., an oil consulting firm in Singapore. ``They have seen that the market can tolerate higher prices. And, in any number of OPEC economies they need the oil revenues of high prices to support their domestic spending programs.''
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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the option arm timebomb on the horizon rate cuts will do nothing

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Feb. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Joe Ripplinger took out a $184,000 mortgage in 2006 and makes his payments every month.

Now he owes $192,000.

The 66-year-old Minneapolis house painter has a payment- option adjustable-rate mortgage. It allows him to write a check for $565 a month even though he owes $1,300. The difference is added to the mortgage, and when his total debt reaches $212,000, or after five years have passed, he said his monthly minimum could jump to about $2,800, which he can't afford.

``We're barely making it right now,'' Ripplinger said.

The estimated 1 million homeowners with $500 billion of option ARMs are beyond the help of interest-rate cuts by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke. While subprime borrowers face an average increase of 8 percent or less when their adjustable- rate mortgages reset, option ARM homeowners may see their monthly payments double after their adjustments kick in.

``We call them neutron loans because they're like a neutron bomb,'' said Brock Davis, a broker with U.S. Express Mortgage Corp. in Las Vegas. ``Three years later the house is still there and the people are gone.''

Once option ARM borrowers' loan balances reach a predetermined limit, called a negative amortization cap, usually 110 percent to 120 percent of the mortgage amount, their payment rates immediately increase. They also automatically shoot up after five years. Otherwise, increases typically are capped at 7.5 percent of a borrower's initial payment per year.

One in Five

``These could be called long-fuse, exploding ARMs,'' said Kathleen Keest, former assistant Iowa attorney general and now senior policy counsel at the Center for Responsible Lending in Durham, North Carolina. ``I've heard people say they are the most complicated product ever offered to consumers. They are the real liar loans.''

The loans accounted for 8.9 percent of the almost $3 trillion in U.S. home loans made in 2006, up from 8.3 percent in 2005, according to an estimate by industry newsletter Inside Mortgage Finance. Originations of option ARMs fell 50 percent during the first nine months of last year, the newsletter says.

One in five option ARMs packaged into bonds last year required less than 10 percent down payment and no proof of a borrower's income, according to a Jan. 22 report by New York- based analysts at UBS AG, Europe's largest bank by assets. Two percent required no down payment at all from the borrower, the analysts said.

Better Scrutiny

Delinquency rates on option ARMs tend to be low in the early years, misleading some investors to think they will remain safe, said Sean Kirk, a debt trader at Seaport Group LLC, a New York- based securities firm focused on bonds of distressed or restructured companies.

Four types of home buyers typically get option ARMs.

Speculators, who plan to sell the property quickly, made up 12 percent of all option ARMs packaged into bonds last year, according to UBS. That included only borrowers who identified themselves as investors and not residents, who get lower mortgage rates. Wealthy people have used the loan for its flexibility, according to Thornburg Mortgage Inc. in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

The rest either took out the loans as an ``affordability'' product to buy more expensive homes, according to Standard & Poor's, or borrowers may have been misled about the terms, according to federal bank regulators.

Minnesota Legislation

``I never heard of a payment-option ARM before,'' said Ripplinger, the Minnesota borrower. ``We thought they were putting us on a 30-year fixed. They didn't put us on a 30-year fixed. I believe that's why a lot of people are losing their homes now.''

Borrowers who tapped home equity in refinancing represented more than 44 percent of the option ARMs underlying securities created in each of the past four years, according to UBS.

Minnesota passed legislation in August requiring mortgage brokers to act in borrowers' best interest, a law that may have made Ripplinger's mortgage illegal, said Brandon Nessen, executive director of Minnesota ACORN, a housing activist group in St. Paul.

``You can't make a loan that puts someone in a worse position than they were in before,'' Nessen said.

Sophisticated borrowers can take out option ARMs and avoid problems, said Ira Rheingold, executive director of the National Association of Consumer Advocates in Washington. It's just that mortgage sellers marketed them to people who didn't understand the terms and couldn't afford them, he said.

`Cheat People'

``It was used to cheat people,'' Rheingold said. ``It helped artificially keep housing prices higher than they should have been.''

Delinquencies of more than 90 days on option ARMs increased to 5.7 percent in the fourth quarter from 0.6 percent in the same period of 2006 on loans held by Countrywide Financial Corp., the Calabasas, California-based company said in a regulatory filing last week.

Lenders hold loans in their portfolios when they don't bundle them into securities for sale to investors.

Countrywide had $28.3 billion in option ARMs in portfolio at the end of October, according to Inside Mortgage Finance. The only banks with more were Charlotte, North Carolina-based Wachovia Corp., with $117.8 billion, and Seattle-based Washington Mutual Inc., with $57.9 billion, according to the Bethesda, Maryland-based newsletter.

Option ARMs, which can adjust monthly, are more attractive for banks to keep in portfolios than fixed-rate loans because they adjust at the same time as savings accounts and other deposits used to fund the loans.

Staying Current

Countrywide wrote down the value of $35 million of the loans in the fourth quarter, up from $1 million a year earlier, according to a regulatory filing. The company agreed to be acquired by Charlotte, North Carolina-based Bank of America Corp. after losing as much as 89 percent of its market value.

Wachovia-originated option ARMs were higher quality than other companies' option ARMs, Chief Executive Officer G. Kennedy Thompson said in a Jan. 30 conference call. That's because the bank made sure borrowers could stay current on monthly payments at the reset amount, not just the teaser interest rate, which can be as low as 1 percent, he said.

That was a standard that regulators, including the Fed, recommended in 2006 after the total U.S. foreclosure rate climbed to a five-year high. It has since surged to the loftiest level since at least World War II, according to data compiled by the Washington-based Mortgage Bankers Association.

Tougher lending guidelines have made it more difficult to refinance into new option ARMs.

Regret Making Loans

``The option ARM volume that was done was part of the excess,'' IndyMac Bancorp Inc. CEO Michael Perry said in a telephone interview from his office in Pasadena, California.

IndyMac, the second-largest independent U.S. home lender, made $43 billion of the loans from 2005 through the third quarter of 2007.

``Obviously we've been through what we've all been through, there's many things we regret,'' Perry said. IndyMac no longer makes the loans because mortgage-bond buyers aren't interested, he said.

Washington Mutual also is no longer offering option ARMs to borrowers who put down little or no money or home equity as a deposit, CEO Kerry Killinger said on a conference call last week.

``Washington Mutual continues to offer option ARMs under tightened credit standards,'' Alan Gulick, a spokesman, said today by phone.

The company's unpaid principal balance of option ARMs exceeded their original principal amount by $1.73 billion at the end of 2007, almost double the $888 million of a year earlier, Washington Mutual reported on Jan. 17.

Regional Banks

Regional banks are feeling the effects of option ARM delinquencies, said Andrew Laperriere, managing director of New York-based research firm International Strategy & Investment Group.

FirstFed Financial Corp., the Santa Monica, California-based savings and loan whose net income slumped 75 percent last quarter, blamed option ARMs hitting their negative-amortization caps for higher delinquencies. More than 1,800 of its borrowers hit the limits, and 2,400 more may this year, the company said Jan. 25.

Laperriere estimates that 85 percent of option ARM borrowers owe more than their original loan balance.

``The problem is, you can refinance an option ARM to a 30- year conventional loan at a 5.5 percent interest rate, and you're still looking at your payment going up 150 percent,'' Laperriere said. ``That's pretty ugly.''

About $460 billion of adjustable-rate mortgages are scheduled to reset this year, with the next spike in resets coming in 2011, when $420 billion in mortgages will adjust to new interest rates for the first time, according to New York-based analysts at Citigroup Inc.

That's the year that Joe Ripplinger's payment will jump, provided he doesn't reach his negative amortization cap before then.

``It's the worst thing we could have done,'' he said.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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well not to much excitement tonight been a snore over in asia for most part since most markets closed for a few days for chinese new year

japan down 170 flirting with sub 13k again

yen up a bit

dow futures off 19

see ya tomorrow
 

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wow i have pets smarter than Joe Ripplinger

boo hoo
565 dollar mortage on a 164k loan
lmao
what a dumb shit how the hell did he think he was gonna pay the mortgage back?
throw idiots like this on the street and bring home prices to where they should be
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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consumer done, looks like lower open dow futures off 83

----------------

Consumer Confidence Sinks Even Lower
Friday February 8, 7:53 am ET
By Jeannine Aversa, AP Economics Writer <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="4"><tbody><tr><td height="4">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Consumer Confidence Sinks Even Lower, Hurt by Deteriorating Jobs Market, Recession Worries WASHINGTON (AP) -- People's confidence in the economy sank even lower amid heightened fears about shrinking job opportunities and the possibility the country is falling into recession.According to the RBC Cash Index, confidence dropped to a mark of 48.5 in early February, from 56.3 last month. The new reading was the worst since the index began in 2002 and surpassed the previous low reached in January.
 

Triple digit silver kook
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The commodity index CRB reached another all time high this morning.

Its heavily weighed with grains, but commodities generally are in major uptrends.

Precious metals strong again and for a change the mining shares are along for the ride today.

Deflation??? Ummmm, nope.

:think:

X, eventually either gold or some currency will replace the us peso as the worlds reserve currency. Id prefer it be gold itself and China still has plenty problems within its banking system. However, eventually they are going to replace the us as the us replaced the uk as the king economy.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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deflation ain't coming if markets don't continue to tank

also i just like to argue its not like i'm screaming its coming for sure just holding out the possibility

i'm not shorting gold or commodiities, only thing i have close to it is DUG (but that's short the oil and gas companies not the oil itself),

reading that OPEC article last night about them protecting 80 a barrel could really hurt the refiners down the road if US consumption dries and gas prices going down but oil prices still stay 80+

by the way gas prices still falling 2.966 average now

we have no way out right now either shit going up to keep us somewhat afloat in number terms and we creep along with slow growth with massive inflation as the credit spigots work

or everything tanking hard (well equities would fall the hardest)

granted i suppose there could be some in between

markets flatline for most part while inflation goes up....
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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deflation in some form will come if we are bound for dow 7k or something is what i'm saying

if markets stay flat, never get to 10k or lower, even go up in the next few years inflation will be rampant

no argument from me
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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y amzn and techies in general got good news with AMZN 1 billion share buyback in next 24 months

will give amzn an underlying bid at times

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amazing how well markets held up the last 3 days with all the crap data

guess they holding out hope the rate cuts can resume print mania

we shall see won't we
 

Timetoplay (by the rules)
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y amzn and techies in general got good news with AMZN 1 billion share buyback in next 24 months

will give amzn an underlying bid at times

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amazing how well markets held up the last 3 days with all the crap data

guess they holding out hope the rate cuts can resume print mania

we shall see won't we

Sorry, shouldn't have said "now"

Wait for the runup, or ride the runup, but it's a false run
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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granted S&P down 5.16% on the week as of now

basically tied (for biggestweekly loss since bear started) with its weekly loss 3 weeks ago before the 2 week bear shake
 

Triple digit silver kook
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I agree. Companies quite often announce buybacks and the public incorrectly assumes that = the stock is a lock to go higher. Spin away wall street.

Its going to be interesting watching the feds response if all 3 major us indices fall through last months lows.

%^_
 

Timetoplay (by the rules)
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I agree. Companies quite often announce buybacks and the public incorrectly assumes that = the stock is a lock to go higher. Spin away wall street.

Its going to be interesting watching the feds response if all 3 major us indices fall through last months lows.

%^_

Yikes we agreed on something. *Leaves thread*
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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well they got a low volume grind up of sorts the last few hours but late friday noise after a rough week, not conviction buying and fell off to the close after threatening to turn triple green, techies up some, dow and S&P down some

retails sails for jan come out on tuesday markets probably awaiting that for most part

praying that's its not a negative number like it was in december

till next week

and we'll see if the bearish grind heading heading for a lower low (last low put in was dow 11508 and S&P 1270) continues
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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jdog and DAW, good day for the miners looks like they finally starting to follow gold and silver's advance although volume not overly convincing

:toast:
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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The commodity index CRB reached another all time high this morning.

Its heavily weighed with grains, but commodities generally are in major uptrends.

I've been biding my time patiently awaiting an entry point with DBA, but the goddamn thing keeps going up. Did I miss the boat?
 

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I've been biding my time patiently awaiting an entry point with DBA, but the goddamn thing keeps going up. Did I miss the boat?

you are not the only one!

have had an order in at $31.66 for weeks

I was fortunate to buy some at $25 last year, just a nibble though

smart money is split 50/50 with the grains, some say another 10-25% correction, others say to the moon.

maybe dollar cost average in over the next several months
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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still major droughts in austrailia, the wheat component is really holding DBA up right now as wheat is soaring

just take a look at wheat chart insane

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=MGEX_MW.H08&v=dmax

if you wanna chase that action and play the parabolic action continues long term feel free, i don't see it
 

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