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I agree with DAW - could really care less what gold does myself, I prefer to see it drop to shake out the weak hands to buy more

like WB says "say I like to eat hamburgers, do I want the price to move up or down?"

that said, if one refuses to buy physical, CEF Central Fund of Canada much better than GLD longterm (CEF actually has the metal). GLD still useful for short term trades.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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think us bears might have had enough fun very near term

my guess we go green before day is out

its all noise though in the end i just watch the day to day stuff to amuze myself

looks more and more like markets finding a base near term

bear fun probably over i got alot of other stuff i need to do today anyway

peace out
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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I agree with DAW - could really care less what gold does myself, I prefer to see it drop to shake out the weak hands to buy more

like WB says "say I like to eat hamburgers, do I want the price to move up or down?"

that said, if one refuses to buy physical, CEF Central Fund of Canada much better than GLD longterm (CEF actually has the metal). GLD still useful for short term trades.

yeah good point on CEF

i used to own that back in my gold bug days

on the physical end of the spectrum

much much better than GLD as its audited gold in a safe in canada, plus you get some silver too think its 50% silver, 50% gold
 

Triple digit silver kook
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some other thoughts about gold.

people have to understand that the govt, wall street, and central bankers do not want people buying gold.

in fact, they all hate gold and what it stands for. it keeps politicians honest and thats why they have tried to debunk its use.

most brokers arent going to be advising people to load up in this sector. 'its too risky', doesnt pay a dividend, it should be 2k today or more based on 1980 high, its a useless relic...all the typical bs. if you have bothered to look at many of the charts ive posted the past few weeks in this thread, you would see there is also plenty of risk and volatility owning other assets.

all their statements about gold are rubbish, nevertheless, expect to continue hearing them. meanwhile us folks owning gold will continue making money and outperforming the overall stock markets' annual return.

thus, they are going to do everything and anything within their power to keep its price from rising.

however, throughout history, although it takes time for gold to win these battles, it has always prevailed.

we are not going to hold large amounts of gold and/or gold stocks forever. there will be a time to sell. i dont know nor am i going to make an attempt today to predict when that date is. we will worry about that once we get some vivid signals of a post mania/bubble top. as i can see right now, we are far away from a mania within this sector.

:chest:
 

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DEC 07 money supply figures (YOY increase)

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Verdana]Brazil M3......... +17.0%
Canada M3...... +12.9%
China M2......... +18.5%
Euro zone M3..... +12.3%
Hong Kong M3.... +31.5%
India M3............+21.5%
U.S. M3........... +15.8%


:money8:
[/FONT]
 

Triple digit silver kook
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although some major haircuts among alot of groups and hot stocks, alot of the financials (gs leading the charge) are holding the fort from being ambushed.

joe, the market is clearly telling you that your trade is a bad one and wrong.

if the market rallies you are going to get your head chopped off with the other half of those gs short shares.

you are an intrameeting rate cut announcement away from potentially getting torched.

probably best to take your loss and if you must be short find something else to short.

the flush out am that cramer talked about yesterday was this morning.

easy short money today has already been made.
 

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JPM up 6.6% today.

:scared:

:nono5:

beware of the PPT

one could argue they have more control than GS....I actually like their style. They pretty much keep to themselves and are not very flashy

"the loudest guy in the room is the weakest":103631605

USD looks to have found a bottom
 

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USD looks to have found a bottom

anybody catch the recent McDonalds commercial talking about the falling USD?:WTF:

if that wasn't confirmation of a short term bottom I don't know what is

be interesting how it reacts to a .50 cut in 2 weeks.... a .25 cut it rallies IMHO
 

Triple digit silver kook
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queen latifah at the nasdaq this morning talking with cramer about alternative energy and renewables.


:dancefool:dancefool:dancefool

:think2::think2::think2:
 

bushman
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Don't forget to tell all your buddies in here when you decide to do a major unloading of gold Woofy.

Like 30-40% kinda thing.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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its only gone from 52 to 41.67 (with todays gain) since march

things don't go straight down

let me break out my bear shake

nevermind have troubles posting a pic for some reason..
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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lets try again
 
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the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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yeah that sums it up well where i think we stand, regardless of what ben does

we are out of bubbles

he's also with you guys on the gold front (going much higher even though could be really bumpy ride)

-----------------------------------------------------------

We've run out of bubbles

Booms and busts are natural to capitalism, but for years now an irresponsible Fed has interfered with the down cycle. The only choice now may be to let nature take its course.

By Bill Fleckenstein

Are the bulls in hibernation?

I'll begin the new year with this comment: There are no bullish interpretations for the stock market's action thus far. This tells us that 2008 will be the year when reality finally overtakes the Goldilocks crowd.

Of course, we should expect the bulls to regale us with stories about a proverbial second-half rebound -- the possibility of which is approximately zero, in my opinion. We should also expect believers in that hypothesis to spark a rally from time to time, based on hopes of surprise interest-rate cuts and on actual cuts.

But their efforts will become progressively less effective. (Anyone seeking a road map to how that might evolve can look at the market's responses to the rate cuts from 2000 through 2002.)

Irresponsible liquidity originally emanating from the Federal Reserve and then-chief Alan Greenspan (a subject I cover thoroughly in my soon-to-be-published book), coupled with reckless acts of deregulation, have created the problem we now face. The country has gone "all in" via the credit-bubble-inspired housing bubble, which is now unwinding.

I do not believe there is a potential bubble left that could bail us out, nor do I believe a bailout should be attempted. Likewise, I do not believe any quick fix exists.

What I do see as the real solution is to let the creative destruction of capitalism finally run its course, after having been held back for a couple of decades.

I know I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Capitalism involves booms and busts. There is a phenomenon known as the business cycle that loosely revolves around those booms and busts. The policies of Greenspan and the Fed suppressed those busts, and "risk" was more or less struck from the lexicon of the English language (while linguists have pronounced "subprime" their word of the year).

If we stop attempting to bypass the creative destruction of capitalism, we will finally be able to bring about a recovery built on a solid foundation instead of the quicksand underlying the 2003-07 "recovery" that was built on the housing mania. Though I would like to think the politicians and the Fed get the message and will let the process play out, I am not going to hold my breath.
Memo to those who would meddle
Indeed, as Stephen Roach wrote in last week's Financial Times (read "America's inflated asset prices must fall"): "The U.S. body politic is . . . underwriting massive liquidity injections that produce another asset bubble and proposing fiscal pump-priming that would depress domestic saving even further. Such actions can only compound the problems that got America into this mess in the first place."

Noting how those actions had suppressed the savings process in this country, Roach commented: "America's aversion toward saving did not appear out of thin air. Waves of asset appreciation -- first equities and, more recently, residential property -- convinced citizens that a new era was at hand. Reinforced by a monstrous bubble of cheap credit, there was little perceived need to save the old-fashioned way -- out of income. Assets became the preferred vehicle of choice. With one bubble begetting another, America's imbalances rose to epic proportions.

"Despite generally sub-par income generation, private consumption soared to a record 72% of real gross domestic product in 2007. Household debt hit a record 133% of disposable personal income. And income-based measures of personal saving moved back into negative territory in late 2007. None of these trends is sustainable."

I could not agree more with Roach's view of what lies ahead: "It's going to be a very painful process to break the addiction to asset-led behavior. No one wants recessions, asset deflation and rising unemployment. But this has always been the potential endgame of a bubble prone U.S. economy."

We have experienced a wild, drunken binge, and we are going to have a hangover. But the best policy for the country would be to accept the hangover, head to the gym, start working out, and get stronger and healthier for the next go-round.
Yellow dog takes a bowwow
Now, a look at gold, an asset I have been bullish on for many years:

On Jan. 7, gold was the subject of a rather remarkable Financial Times editorial titled "Gold is the new global currency." "In today's uncertain world," it notes, "the yellow metal is back in fashion."

I might point out that gold has always been a store of value, aka money, though gold hasn't always been recognized as such.

That the editorial writers agree is the takeaway from this quote: "A better way to think of gold may be as central bankers used to before America dropped the gold standard: not as a commodity, but as another currency."

(It's worth noting that when gold was at its lows, the Financial Times opined that no one needed it. Gold was just deemed to be another commodity. Obviously, that view has changed.)

Back to the editorial, which makes a fine point: "As long as the dollar stays weak, gold's bull run will last. . . . The U.S. Federal Reserve's aggressive rate-cutting response to the credit squeeze has created a risk of a sharp rise in American inflation. That in turn creates the risk of a precipitous fall in the dollar and so makes gold more attractive as a hedge."
Why gold is going higher
Additionally, notes the editorial, "the arguments for further gains in gold are compelling. It looks cheap, despite climbing from a low of $250 a troy ounce in 1999, when central banks were selling reserves."

As for the United Kingdom's recent decision to sell 60% of its gold holdings, the editorial describes the move as "particularly poor." I would certainly agree.

Finally, a word to contrarians who feel they need to fade this gold-as-currency movement due to the belief that the trade has become too crowded:

Staying with a bull market is often a hard problem to finesse, especially with something like gold, which has so few tangible fundamentals. (It's understandably unnerving to see lots of people picking a top, as though gold at $880 is radically different from gold at $850 -- or $900, for that matter.)

Perhaps gold will see a correction. But it's also worth noting that folks who don't like company often leave the train far too soon. In fact, for a bull market to blossom, the asset class in question has to become more popular. As for the public, thus far it seems not to be involved -- though I expect that before this is through, that will change in a meaningful way.

I have no idea how high gold will go, and I'm sure the ride will continue to be bumpy. But I think that if the Financial Times is declaring that gold should once again take its rightful place as the currency it always has been, the price of gold is headed much higher.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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looking ahead not much action for afterhours

logi the only name of interest i see

----------------------------------------

tomorrow

Jan 17 8:30 AM Housing Starts Dec - 1160K 1150K 1187K -
Jan 17 8:30 AM Building Permits Dec - 1150K 1140K 1162K -
Jan 17 8:30 AM Initial Claims 01/12 - 335K 335K 322K -
Jan 17 10:30 AM Crude Inventories 01/12 - NA NA -6736K -
Jan 17 12:00 PM Philadelphia Fed Jan - 2.0 -1.5 -1.6 -
Jan 18 10:00 AM Leading Indicators Dec - 0.0% -0.1% -0.4% -
Jan 18 10:00 AM Mich Sentiment-Prel. Jan - 74.0 74.5 75.5 -

on earnings front all eyes will be on

MER do they come in really bad like C or do they help stop the bloodletting

and we got

amtd, bk, bbt, blk, cal, igt, nvs, pnc, ppg,

plus alot of smaller banking/financial issues

AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF

BEN AND SOME FED SPEAK
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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fed beige book release at 2 eastern today

looks like markets will get triple green before day is out

looking like market liking the below fed speak today

-------------------------------------------------------------

Prepared at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta and based on information collected before January 7, 2008. This document summarizes comments received from businesses and other contacts outside the Federal Reserve and is not a commentary on the views of Federal Reserve officials.

Reports from the twelve Federal Reserve Districts suggest that economic activity increased modestly during the survey period of mid-November through December, but at a slower pace compared with the previous survey period. Among Districts, seven reported a slight increase in activity, two reported mixed conditions, and activity in three Districts was described as slowing.

Most reports on retail activity indicated subdued holiday spending and further weakness in auto sales. However, most reports on tourism spending were positive. Residential real estate conditions continued to be quite weak in all Districts. Reports on commercial real estate activity varied, with some reports noting signs of softening demand. Manufacturing reports varied across industries, with pronounced weakness noted in housing-related industries as well as the automobile industry. Strong export orders and increased demand in industries whose products compete against imports was reported by some Districts. Demand for nonfinancial services remained generally positive, although some Districts commented on continuing weak demand for transportation services.

Reports from banks and other financial institutions noted further declines in residential real estate lending, and lending to the commercial real estate sector was generally described as mixed. Some Districts reported lower consumer loan volumes, whereas the volume of commercial and industrial lending varied. Most Districts cited tighter credit standards.

Demand continued to decline for construction workers and those in housing-related industries, according to most reports, while demand generally held steady for skilled workers in nonfinancial service industries. Wage increases remained moderate overall. Increases in prices for food, petrochemicals, metals, and energy-related inputs continued to be widely reported, and production and delivery costs for many products increased because of higher fuel prices. Producers in the agricultural sector reported generally strong demand and favorable production conditions outside of the drought-stricken areas in the Southeast. Strong oil and gas exploration and production activity was noted by several Districts.

Consumer Spending and Tourism
Reports indicate that holiday sales were generally disappointing. Sales in the Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, New York, Richmond, and San Francisco Districts were varyingly described as lackluster, weak, below year-ago levels, or mixed. Kansas City reported that spending was solid, but below expectations. Sales rose modestly according to Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and St. Louis reports. Atlanta and New York merchants noted that foreign buyers were a boost to holiday sales. Overall, the outlook for 2008 among retail merchants was cautious.

Most Districts reported that vehicle sales for late 2007 were below year-ago levels. However, the Minneapolis report noted strong demand from area farmers and Canadians purchasing vehicles across the border. The Atlanta and Kansas City Districts reported that sluggish vehicle demand has resulted in unexpected inventory accumulation. However, imports and fuel-efficient vehicles continued to sell well according to the Philadelphia, Kansas City, and Dallas reports. Atlanta noted that some foreign brands had turned to fleet sales to offset generally weaker retail demand. Dealers in Philadelphia and Cleveland anticipated that sales in 2008 would be flat to lower than in 2007.

Reports on tourism were mostly positive. The Atlanta District observed that Florida businesses catering to winter visitors experienced increased demand. The number of visitors from Europe and Canada were especially strong, and bookings for the Spring were robust. Minneapolis reported that solid snowfall in many parts of the District helped spur winter tourism activity. Richmond’s assessment of tourist activity was also generally upbeat. Tourism activity in New York City was said to have remained strong through year-end.

Nonfinancial Services
Most reports cited robust demand in several nonfinancial service industries including health care, hospitality, legal, and insurance. According to Atlanta, the demand for engineers, particularly in petrochemical fields, was very strong. Reports on temporary staffing services were mixed. For instance, Dallas and Philadelphia noted that employment firms reported weaker demand for temporary workers, whereas New York and Richmond reported relatively strong demand.

Demand for transportation services was generally weak, led by lower demand from the housing sector. Reports indicated that freight volume continued to weaken in the Atlanta and Cleveland Districts and was slow overall in the Dallas District. Inter-modal transportation volumes were also said to be lower in the Atlanta and Dallas Districts, although Dallas noted that rail shipments were up, led by strong agricultural shipments.

Manufacturing
Reports on manufacturing activity varied. Kansas City reported that manufacturing was expanding and that manufacturers were relatively upbeat. Cleveland reported that manufacturing output remained steady overall, whereas Dallas indicated that conditions continued to soften. New York reported that manufacturing activity appeared to weaken somewhat in early December, but noted some improvement later in the month. Among the positive reports, San Francisco noted that production and new orders for commercial aircraft and parts remained solid, while sales of information-technology products continued to increase moderately. Boston said that sales of aircraft equipment and pharmaceuticals continued to rise at a robust rate. Atlanta and Minneapolis noted that defense and energy-related manufacturers reported strong activity. St. Louis and San Francisco reported that the local food production industry was expanding.

Philadelphia, Chicago, Kansas City, and Atlanta reported that many firms were expanding export activity. In some cases, demand was also said to have increased as a result of import substitution. For example, Chicago reported that domestic steel production was expanding, led by a moderation in imports. Demand for equipment used in energy extraction and mining continued to be robust as well.

However, according to most Districts, conditions in manufacturing industries producing construction and home-related goods remained weak. Richmond noted weakness in demand for electronics, and San Francisco described production of industrial equipment as tepid. In addition, auto-related production was soft according to the Cleveland, Chicago, and St. Louis reports.

Real Estate and Construction
Conditions in most housing markets remained quite weak through year-end. The pace of sales continued to be sluggish, and inventories persisted at historically high levels according to most Districts. Home construction levels continued to decline according to Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Kansas City, and St. Louis reports. Reports on home prices varied. While Dallas observed that home prices were steady, Atlanta, Cleveland, Kansas City, New York, and Richmond reported that prices declined; the Boston and San Francisco Districts said that changes in home prices were mixed. Overall, contacts anticipate that housing markets will remain weak during the first part of 2008.

Reports on commercial real estate activity varied, with some Districts noting that activity had eased late in the year. Contacts in the Atlanta and Boston Districts indicated that commercial markets were little changed while the Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and Richmond reports suggested slower growth. Activity was stable to increasing according to the Cleveland, Dallas, and San Francisco reports. Vacancy rates were described as stable in the New York, Philadelphia, and Kansas City Districts, and as varied in the Richmond District. Chicago and Minneapolis contacts noted that retail vacancies had risen. Kansas City contacts reported that leasing activity was stable, whereas leasing activity in the Richmond, Philadelphia, and New York Districts had slowed. Most Boston District contacts reported that rents were flat, while rents were steady to declining according to the Chicago and Kansas City reports. New York and Richmond noted that rental rates had stabilized in the fourth quarter, whereas Dallas continued to report rising rental rates.

Contacts in the Boston and Chicago Districts indicated that commercial construction activity was slowing. Developers in the Atlanta and Richmond Districts reported smaller backlogs of projects while Cleveland District contacts said that backlogs had risen. Most contacts anticipate a slower pace of commercial development during 2008.

Banking and Finance
Reports suggest that both business and consumer lending activity slowed in most Districts from mid-November through December. Residential mortgage lending continued to contract in all Districts while refinancing activity varied. For instance, Chicago and Richmond noted increased refinancing activity, but New York cited widespread declines in refinancing. Reports on commercial real estate loan demand were also mixed, although Dallas and Cleveland noted relatively healthy demand. Most reports indicated that credit standards for most loan categories had tightened over the period. Downward pressure on deposits was noted by Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, St Louis, Kansas City, and Dallas. Several Districts reported declines in loan quality and increased delinquencies.

Agriculture and Natural Resources
The performance of the agricultural sector across Districts was generally favorable. Upbeat conditions in Chicago, Minneapolis, and San Francisco were attributed to a combination of higher crop prices and favorable weather. Dallas and San Francisco reported strong domestic and global demand for their products. Kansas City reported that strong demand and low inventories boosted prices and income for crop producers. However, despite recent rains, conditions for drought-stricken areas in the Atlanta and Richmond Districts remained generally poor.

Activity in the energy sector increased according to the Atlanta, Dallas, Kansas City, and Minneapolis Districts. Dallas noted a sharp rise in the Texas rig count while Kansas City cited strong drilling activity in Oklahoma and Colorado. However, seasonal factors dampened drilling activity in the Cleveland District, and reports on coal production in the region were mixed. Atlanta indicated that Gulf Coast crude inventories were low, but new offshore platforms should help boost production in 2008.

Prices and Wages
According to most reports, businesses continued to face rising costs for food, petrochemicals, metals, and energy-related inputs. Several Districts noted that transportation costs for most products increased. Philadelphia reported that some firms had raised output prices in order to cover higher energy costs. In the San Francisco District, price inflation was said to be limited in general, but significant for food and energy. Dallas reported that high or rising input costs were squeezing margins for most industries. Manufacturers in the New York District reported prices paid and received had increased and that this was expected to continue. Atlanta noted that input costs continued to increase for imported goods originating in Europe or Japan because of the lower value of the dollar. In contrast, producers of framing lumber, wallboard, and wood panels reported weak prices according to the Atlanta, Minneapolis, and Chicago reports.

Reports suggest that labor markets remained relatively tight overall, and especially for skilled workers, whereas housing-related industries continued to trim payrolls. Increases in employment costs were generally described as moderate. Kansas City reported that overall wage pressures eased, with only the energy sector citing significant wage pressure. Philadelphia reported that labor costs continued to increase at a moderate pace while Boston, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco reported that wage pressures remained limited outside of a few sectors that continue to experience shortages of skilled labor. Wage pressures were not significant according to the Cleveland report.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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:lolBIG:

the bears just playing around with bully all day giving um hope of a bottom

than starts mauling um late to close it triple red, bears on a parade

:party:
 
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the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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yeah had my eyes on monsanto

maybe i'll pull the trigger soon still near the highs :103631605

its had a good run from 7 to 123 since 2003 during the agriboom :lolBIG:

down over 8% today :ohno:
 

Dr. Is IN
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although some major haircuts among alot of groups and hot stocks, alot of the financials (gs leading the charge) are holding the fort from being ambushed.

joe, the market is clearly telling you that your trade is a bad one and wrong.

if the market rallies you are going to get your head chopped off with the other half of those gs short shares.

you are an intrameeting rate cut announcement away from potentially getting torched.

probably best to take your loss and if you must be short find something else to short.

the flush out am that cramer talked about yesterday was this morning.

easy short money today has already been made.


Woof you are correct...i got my ass handed to me on this trade...I'm gonna hold until Thursday and see what that brings....as always my tipping point is 200....so if I can get 192-3 on Thursday I'll cut and run
 

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