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Solar and/or wind alone can't come anywhere close to supporting energy needs of the billions and the energy demands in emerging economies like China and India soaring...

Significant nukes or fossil fuels necessary ...pick your poison.. Obv nuke has a dark history but this is 2015.... We got them pretty much figured out other than Mother Nature causing us problems...

i know nuke meltdowns are scary but think big picture..
 

bushman
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i know nuke meltdowns are scary but think big picture

To my mind I am thinking of the big picture, the really big picture
Letting politicians and financial guys run Nuclear Power Stations is to my mind insane

I wouldn't trust that lot with my dog, never mind the future of the human race
 

bushman
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The simplest analogy would be:

"Letting politicians play with Nuclear power is like letting children play with loaded guns"

You simply cannot allow it because deep down you know that no matter how hard you try to make it safe you will always end up with a disaster

we're monkeys playing with fire
 

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Heard a good Warren Buffet joke the other day. Where does he think the growth in the economy is? Well if we look at his investments the last 20 years, his core business is mainly catastrophic insurance. There are pretty much 4 options for this...

1. Nothing major happens, collects premiums

2. 9/11 style attack happens, premiums go up. This happened.

3. Nuclear bomb goes off. Damage is so bad that gov't bails him out

4. 5000 nukes go off, nobody around to make insurance claims.

Not a bad business model. No wonder he is the richest and most prolific investor of all time.
 

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Solar and/or wind alone can't come anywhere close to supporting energy needs of the billions and the energy demands in emerging economies like China and India soaring...

Significant nukes or fossil fuels necessary ...pick your poison.. Obv nuke has a dark history but this is 2015.... We got them pretty much figured out other than Mother Nature causing us problems...

i know nuke meltdowns are scary but think big picture..

i was just asked to speak at a university on the topic of solar. I challenged the students to see the world in 40 to 50 years and that world will be without power plants. I also asked what the biggest obstacle will be? Of course those making millions selling electricty and oil. What will lead the change? Battery technology....elon musk is expected to have a home battery in the $3-5 thousand dollar range. Panels that produce more per square foot. Once solar is embraced more the remainder of the clients will pay more to support the grid.....price goes up....more leave. Think that is unreasonable? Who would have predicted AT&T would basically be out of business or Kodak? World changes with new technology.


fun fact
....using today's technology....if we covered just one third of the land that is currently in CRP with solar panels......so that is not that much land and currently the federal government is paying for it to sit idle.....we would generate all of the energy the United states needs.
 

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i was just asked to speak at a university on the topic of solar. I challenged the students to see the world in 40 to 50 years and that world will be without power plants. I also asked what the biggest obstacle will be? Of course those making millions selling electricty and oil. What will lead the change? Battery technology....elon musk is expected to have a home battery in the $3-5 thousand dollar range. Panels that produce more per square foot. Once solar is embraced more the remainder of the clients will pay more to support the grid.....price goes up....more leave. Think that is unreasonable? Who would have predicted AT&T would basically be out of business or Kodak? World changes with new technology.


fun fact
....using today's technology....if we covered just one third of the land that is currently in CRP with solar panels......so that is not that much land and currently the federal government is paying for it to sit idle.....we would generate all of the energy the United states needs.

Hopefully Elon's powerwall and powerpack (strong demand from businesses already) are the answer to the intermittency issues.

You seem well versed in the subject so I'll just throw some issues I have with the solar industry out there and what I'd like to see done.

1. ITC expire. I know this is a tough one since the fossil fuels have been getting breaks for 100 years but you've got to let competition take place and the good installers thrive while the bad ones get weeded out. This happened in Germany and France and now costs per watt is under $3, where in the US it is over $4. I know the PVs have plummeted in cost but the soft costs are still pretty high. This is where the next cost reduction needs to come. They know they can overcharge when the ITC takes care of 30% of the cost anyway, or atleast they have less incentive to get it down through competition.

2. PPA plans. Think PPAs are mainly a ripoff. Making people signup for a 20 year deal that is based on nothing more than avoiding inflation seems like a hard sell and this is what most of the big publicly traded companies are focused on. I'm not saying it is terrible but they should focus more on affordable financing for the installation rather than the shift from the power provider going from traditional utility to PPA (although there is less $ in this for the solar industry)

3. Net metering I think they're being pretty dickish about the whole thing. I understand wanting more than wholesale to sell back to the grid but retail with limited grid maintenance is very uncompromising. They didn't create the grid and it isn't free, they need to work better with the utilities on this. Also the utilities need to realize the day of centralize power distribution is over and need to get better at allowing for distribution. New York seems to be the first state that is modernizing their grid but the battle in AZ, CA, FL is getting ugly.

That is about all I can think off my head but it seems like you are an expert in the subject. Look forward to your take.
 

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Also I dunno if more people will leave because the price to support the grid will go up. Some people can't afford to spend 15-20k on a solar system. Although as the technology gets better and the ROI is higher then more financial institutions will have no problem loaning $.

The utilities can still have a role in the future in terms of distributing decentralized power in an efficient manner. Think even with battery storage that you will still have intermittency issues for a while. Therefore an alternative will need to be baseload for the foreseeable future.

Then there is the regional issue. Solar just works far better in some areas than others. Can we really get all of our energy from solar, wind and hydropower? The professor from Stanford seems to think so but it will take time.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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I'm no expert at all but solar from what Ive read is pretty inefficient..

gotta deal with changing angles to optimize, dust, upkeep, some parts of world just get no sun etc..

it has a place especially in regions that get alot of sun .. And will be increasingly used going forward.. just can't see it coming anywhere near fulfilling the ever growing energy needs of our ever increasing human population..

still gonna have to use a large amount of fossils fuels or nukes for quite some time going forward don't really see any other way even if you remove all the vested interests involved in the fossil fuel trade.. Pick your poison.. Warm up and pollute the earth through fossil fuels.. Or go with nukes that are clean so long as you can contain them and not have accidents etc..

species extinction rate since industrial revolution ridiculous..
 

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I'm fine with the technology, it is definitely a game changer. Just wish the industry was more focused on growth rather than trying to kill the utilities and getting as much gov't $ as possible.

The areas where it is optimally efficient are the areas where we have the most population gains in this country. South/Southwest.

The dust seems like a useless issue, just hose it. Upkeep not too bad but you shouldn't put it on a roof that needs to be redone anytime soon.

I do think a lot of the big solar companies don't have the business model right. It is more regional construction and that is how it will scale over time (atleast how it should optimally)

There might even be breakthroughs that bring the cost down and efficiency up even more but even without them, the cost will probably get cut in half again within the next 6-10 years.

How F'd is Big Power Distribution Utility 100 year model is an interesting discussion. A lot of the utilities been wising up lately and starting to work with solar in terms of net metering, building their own solar plants, etc. No need to not get in on the disruption.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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What u think of solar city from an investment standpoint?
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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I'm of opinion it's a good long term play but currently waiting out potential bear market/low oil prices etc.. to see if I can get cheaper down the road..
 

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What u think of solar city from an investment standpoint?

Yeah that is what I was getting at when saying the big companies I'm not really sure on. What do they really do? Basically regional construction. Are there any other national construction companies that specialize in repairs or installations? Not that I can think of (sure there might be a few small scale)

For one, I think the GOP stands a pretty good chance to win this cycle and if that happens then the ITC will expire. That is good for the industry long-term because costs will come down but it also probably stunts growth in the short-term as the industry needs to consolidate itself. Easy $ over, weak players get squeezed out, etc.

Solar city spends a lot of $ on marketing and other overheads costs that say an engineer and his 3 man crew don't have to spend on. As the panels get cheaper and the product gets more accepted, just seems like you will be able to get them at home depot or lowes then contract the work out.

I understand Elon and those guys have the plan to just go vertical with electric cars, charge it with solar and battery storage. It's definitely ambitious but I could see big solar going the way of big PC companies in the mid 00s. Costs/innovations just too cheap and good to continue to survive.

Maybe in a few years it goes down with correction, ITC expires but we get a little more clarity on where the industry is going and it is a good investment but that's just kinda how I see it now.

Hopefully Northern Star weighs in on this.
 

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Hopefully Elon's powerwall and powerpack (strong demand from businesses already) are the answer to the intermittency issues.

You seem well versed in the subject so I'll just throw some issues I have with the solar industry out there and what I'd like to see done.

1. ITC expire. I know this is a tough one since the fossil fuels have been getting breaks for 100 years but you've got to let competition take place and the good installers thrive while the bad ones get weeded out. This happened in Germany and France and now costs per watt is under $3, where in the US it is over $4. I know the PVs have plummeted in cost but the soft costs are still pretty high. This is where the next cost reduction needs to come. They know they can overcharge when the ITC takes care of 30% of the cost anyway, or atleast they have less incentive to get it down through competition.

2. PPA plans. Think PPAs are mainly a ripoff. Making people signup for a 20 year deal that is based on nothing more than avoiding inflation seems like a hard sell and this is what most of the big publicly traded companies are focused on. I'm not saying it is terrible but they should focus more on affordable financing for the installation rather than the shift from the power provider going from traditional utility to PPA (although there is less $ in this for the solar industry)

3. Net metering I think they're being pretty dickish about the whole thing. I understand wanting more than wholesale to sell back to the grid but retail with limited grid maintenance is very uncompromising. They didn't create the grid and it isn't free, they need to work better with the utilities on this. Also the utilities need to realize the day of centralize power distribution is over and need to get better at allowing for distribution. New York seems to be the first state that is modernizing their grid but the battle in AZ, CA, FL is getting ugly.

That is about all I can think off my head but it seems like you are an expert in the subject. Look forward to your take.

The ITC has helped spur the industry and that subsidy is no where near what the oil industry gets. Did you know if you know the oil industry only pays taxes like the sold 85 barrels even though they sold 100 barrels. Talk about BS. On large scale projects it is already more affordable than other energy. We just bid one for a utility company and the cost was below $2 a watt.

In terms of PPA...there are two main customers for this concept. In Minnesota there are 3 types of utilities: for profit, city owned and some type of rural or cooperative that the members own. The last two can not use the ITC because they dont pay taxes therefore they look for some sort of PPA to drive the cost down where the owner of the array utilizes the ITC and depreciates the asset. The other PPA type options are for non profit organizations and residential customers that cant afford the upfront cost. In the case of the residential customer without capital they are definitely paying a premium....but this is no different than anything else they purchase like a used car from Louie's Auto where Louie provides the financing.

Net metering is kind of funny subject. We are doing a project for a cooperative and they had an open house that I sat with some of their executives and most of the time no one was there to ask questions. The state just passed a law to allow the non profit utility companies to charge solar and wind customers a fee of $5 to $10 a month and they were trilled about this. (Side note renewable energy has become a republican versus democrat issue and the republicans passed this in Minnesota even though the original law was bi partisan and done with a republican governor). I asked them how many current wind and solar customers they had...the answer 12. I really doubt the extra $60 a month is going to change the budget at the utility company. The other interesting thing which most people dont know is the actual price of electricity. They spread it out and in Minnesota charge two rates winter and a higher one in summer. The day I was at the open house was a very hot day and demand was very high. The amount the utility company was paying to buy electricity to sell to their members was over $15 a kWh yet they were charging their customers $0.14 a huge loss. Granted there are other times where they are paying $0.02 and charging $0.14. You would think that they would be happy for the solar customer who is feeding the grid and they have to buy less at $15. I didnt bring this up because I am making a sale with them but what about the guy down the block that buys energy effeciient appliances, LED light bulbs etc and consumes way less....why not charge him more to support the grid?

One other thing that will drive solar is the consumption of the homes will continue to go down thus less is needed in terms of size of an array. Thinks like tablets consume way less than computers. From a safety standpoint the USA is less vulnerable to attacks if the power source is not centralized. If I wanted to attack the USA I would go after a power plant.

Since this is the stock section. Look at Solar Edge.....they recently went public and they have a great product....Elon is teaming up with them. Short Enphase they just got passed by Solar Edge and will have problems.
 

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I'm no expert at all but solar from what Ive read is pretty inefficient..

gotta deal with changing angles to optimize, dust, upkeep, some parts of world just get no sun etc..

it has a place especially in regions that get alot of sun .. And will be increasingly used going forward.. just can't see it coming anywhere near fulfilling the ever growing energy needs of our ever increasing human population..

still gonna have to use a large amount of fossils fuels or nukes for quite some time going forward don't really see any other way even if you remove all the vested interests involved in the fossil fuel trade.. Pick your poison.. Warm up and pollute the earth through fossil fuels.. Or go with nukes that are clean so long as you can contain them and not have accidents etc..

species extinction rate since industrial revolution ridiculous..

You are right you are no expert. Solar can be as simple as install and forget. You dont have to change angles, dont have to wash, and what part of the world doesn't get sun?

You can get more production by changing the angle but not required. The added production from dusting or snow removal is not worth the time to accomplish. The hours of the sun obviously increases the production but not a game changer.....maybe I have to install 5 more panels in Minnesota to meet my needs versus Arizona. I also probably consume less in Minnesota than someone in Arizona. Also in Minnesota the panels work better because of the cooler climate.
 

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The ITC has helped spur the industry and that subsidy is no where near what the oil industry gets. Did you know if you know the oil industry only pays taxes like the sold 85 barrels even though they sold 100 barrels. Talk about BS. On large scale projects it is already more affordable than other energy. We just bid one for a utility company and the cost was below $2 a watt.

In terms of PPA...there are two main customers for this concept. In Minnesota there are 3 types of utilities: for profit, city owned and some type of rural or cooperative that the members own. The last two can not use the ITC because they dont pay taxes therefore they look for some sort of PPA to drive the cost down where the owner of the array utilizes the ITC and depreciates the asset. The other PPA type options are for non profit organizations and residential customers that cant afford the upfront cost. In the case of the residential customer without capital they are definitely paying a premium....but this is no different than anything else they purchase like a used car from Louie's Auto where Louie provides the financing.

Net metering is kind of funny subject. We are doing a project for a cooperative and they had an open house that I sat with some of their executives and most of the time no one was there to ask questions. The state just passed a law to allow the non profit utility companies to charge solar and wind customers a fee of $5 to $10 a month and they were trilled about this. (Side note renewable energy has become a republican versus democrat issue and the republicans passed this in Minnesota even though the original law was bi partisan and done with a republican governor). I asked them how many current wind and solar customers they had...the answer 12. I really doubt the extra $60 a month is going to change the budget at the utility company. The other interesting thing which most people dont know is the actual price of electricity. They spread it out and in Minnesota charge two rates winter and a higher one in summer. The day I was at the open house was a very hot day and demand was very high. The amount the utility company was paying to buy electricity to sell to their members was over $15 a kWh yet they were charging their customers $0.14 a huge loss. Granted there are other times where they are paying $0.02 and charging $0.14. You would think that they would be happy for the solar customer who is feeding the grid and they have to buy less at $15. I didnt bring this up because I am making a sale with them but what about the guy down the block that buys energy effeciient appliances, LED light bulbs etc and consumes way less....why not charge him more to support the grid?

One other thing that will drive solar is the consumption of the homes will continue to go down thus less is needed in terms of size of an array. Thinks like tablets consume way less than computers. From a safety standpoint the USA is less vulnerable to attacks if the power source is not centralized. If I wanted to attack the USA I would go after a power plant.

Since this is the stock section. Look at Solar Edge.....they recently went public and they have a great product....Elon is teaming up with them. Short Enphase they just got passed by Solar Edge and will have problems.

I understand what you're saying about subsidies for other energy. Oil has been massively subsidized for 100 years and that is why we've had minimal energy innovation because it is so hard to compete with it. If you get rid of the ITC in 2017 then I think you will see the industry consolidate itself and the bad players forced out, installation costs go down rather than be propped up by subsidy. Avg cost right now 4.4 per watt, I believe in France/Germany once they removed subsidy this got down to 2.6 to 2.8. Imagine if solar could get down to the 2 range in the next 6-7 years? It would really accelerate the adoption process. Focus should be on getting costs so low and quality so high that you leave people no choice but to get solar. Make them compete until someone comes up with an Apple or Google like product innovation.

As far as PPA goes. It can definitely be a good deal city/muni owned since they can't use ITC. For those that can't shell out the 15-25k for a system, I don't think it is a very good product. Atleast financing is a much better one. When leasing a car, it is usually because it is cheaper than buying that particular car and allows you to have a higher quality vehicle or more flexibility in obtaining a different car in the short-term. With solar, the product is pretty much all the same and accomplishes the same goal. Wouldn't it be better for homeowners if they just bought the actual system and owned it themselves? Just get a 20 year loan at 3-4% (rates should be low given minimal risk, which people will see as years go on. Although not sure how you collateralize that debt) Just seems buying/financing a far better option for residential than PPA. Jigger Shah, the guy whose book I linked a few posts ago, basically invented PPA FWIW.

The reason they're not more friendly to net metering isn't because it wouldn't help them smooth out demand. It's because they know long-term they are going to be screwed if their business model is disrupted. So don't even try to work with solar because the end game to working with them is decentralizing how power gets distributed and flys in the face of everything they've sold for the last 100 years. They actually are big purchasers of Elon's product, the PowerPack, it helps them smooth out demand. Hopefully the product will make sense for homeowners but it will probably take another 5-10 years. Not much different than something like Big Tobacco putting a bunch of crap out there to keep the debate going for a little while.

I think I once read there are like 40 times a year when demand spikes and it costs the utilities a ton in profit. So in that sense, storage or solar will help them a lot.

My guess is you see the regulators step in eventually and go with some type of "solar rate" that is somewhere in the middle of wholesale and retail. I understand your Minnesota example but in Hawaii where everyone has rooftop, you've got to have some type of grid maintenance. Our grid needs modernizing and upgrades nationwide as well, but that's another issue.
 

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Also just to clarify. I agree that ITC helped spur demand. Without it, who knows where the industry would be.

Just think it is at it's logical end for being useful in terms of helping scale solar in a major way. Does more propping up than growing of the industry at this point.
 

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At this point in time solar can compete on its own with one caveat......make the playing field level. Take all of the incentives away from all of its competitors and see who wins. Solar will win.

No one wants a nuclear plant in their back yard.....no insurance company will insure it. What is the cost to store the waste forever?

Oil heavy subsides. How is it $3 in USA and $8 in Europe?

Let the price of other sources reach the real market rates and then see where we are. Minnesota did an extensive study to determine the value of solar and it was higher than the net metering rate that the utility companies are whining about. Utility companies becareful what you wish for.

The grid is old and needs replacing....that drives cost up and just makes solar more affordable.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that is going to fight it to the death is those making millions off selling oil or the utility companies.

Was asked how to drive the cost down? As panels become more efficient...I need to install less panels...which takes less time which makes them more affordable. A couple of places we can really improve on are the soft costs. Everyone has their hand out. City charging a permit fee based on the price of the project. We did a large project on at a university and the city had a fee based on the cost of the project. Same city we did a small residential project also based on the size of the project. City inspector took less than one hour for both jobs yet the larger projects paid thousands for their permit. Complained to the mayor and city council after the project that they are out of line. Had another city that wanted $900 on a $20,000 solar array...ridiculous.

The other big soft cost is the 800 pound gorilla that makes the paperwork and process a nightmare....adds time and cost. Do a google search on Xcel Energy and Solar City filed a complaint about how much added work they require and the time it takes to get hooked up to the grid with them. A recent article in Startribune for a company that has had a $1,000,000 built and has been delayed all summer getting hooked to the grid. Louis Industries is the company. I am laughing a bit because I bid a solar job with him and I didnt know a college buddy had a bid in too. I think he was keeping his buddy honest.....plus his buddy didnt do a good job either but this is typical of the energy companies. Delay the process as much as possible. Sometimes it takes 60-90 days of hounding the utility company...in the meantime a fully functional solar array sits there and cant be used. It costs money to dedicate staff to hounding the utility company.
 

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Another thing about solar laws. In Minnesota a 40 kw was allowed and above that you needed approval from the utility company. Ikea wanted to cover their roof with solar and would consume all of it except 2 days of the year Christmas and New Years when they were closed. They were happy to put the excess energy on the grid and get no compensation and the utility company said no. Why? Because they would be losing all of those sales and because they could and for no other reason. Behind the scenes it went up the chain of command and plenty of delays....eventually someone high up approved the project or they would have been drilled in the media.

Now the law in Minnesota is one megawatt they have to allow you to connect to the grid and excess electricity is at a voided cost (lower than net metering).

One other goofy law is lets say Target wants to cover all of their roofs in Minnesota. Once they get above a megawatt cumalitive they are then considered a utility company and are regulated by the PUC which of course adds other problems and rules. Really? I have 30 stores and put up even a small 40 kW array on all of them and now I have extra costs and rules?
 

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