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the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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Just how it works in today's boom/bust casino market days of steady eddy long over ..

suck people in for years and years while the sharp elites distribute all they can to the masses... And then eventually the rug is pulled .. And in a very short period ... years of gains whiped clean...
 

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Crude sub 30s bottom call looks like a bit too high now. With this rate, it could hit 20s by Nov. Everyone is facing a cash crunch and the lower the price falls, the harder they pump until a lot of them will drop dead. More capex cut and layoffs will be on the chopping block next spring if oil staying in the low 30s.
 

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a deflation death spiral

I like that, sums it up nicely
Looks like overproduction to me, the warehouses are filling up in China etc as customers dry up

Things are setting themselves up for an October bloodfest now, yet again

When this thread started we had the boom-bust, now we get the bust-bust

They fixed this situation in the early 1980s by racking interest rates up to push inflation but it won't work this time, there's nothing to drive things forwards

More QE?? To stop the deflation death spiral gaining momentum?

Going Japanese... Going Japanese...
 

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Financial shitstorms seem to come in 6-7 year cycles at the moment
2002
2008

and now 2015?
 

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Crude sub 30s bottom call looks like a bit too high now. With this rate, it could hit 20s by Nov. Everyone is facing a cash crunch and the lower the price falls, the harder they pump until a lot of them will drop dead. More capex cut and layoffs will be on the chopping block next spring if oil staying in the low 30s.

Difference between now and '08 is '08 it was all demand collapse that drove crude lower. Now if you've got a demand collapse, you also have excess supply.

I would say if it does go sub-20 that a big oil based ETF has gotta be a good play. It can't stay that low for that long. Most drilling would get shutoff at that price and I think you atleast get back to the 40-50 range soon enough.
 

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They may up interest rates and beat the weaker players in life

Makes a hell of a fucking mess and leaves a lot of wreckage but stabilises the economy with the survivors/winners who can hang in there

Pushes up stock markets too, after the shakeout

I survived it in the 1980s when commodities were cheap, but most things aint cheap anymore, it would be a bloodbath
 

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That really hasn't been the MO of central banks over the last 30 years. It has been cut, raise, recession, cut.

Now they're in a bind where it is already ZIRP, can't cut anymore.

They're not gonna let the market die like that either, their would be a lot of fleeing to fixed income. I'd be in favor of raising rates to a more normal rate environment but I just don't see it happening.

We've got so much going for us than Japan so i don't think that is the end game but it is certainly similar.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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By heavy QE they pushed economic activity forward for the sake of near term stability at the sacrifice for the future... Lot of the "growth" the past 7ish years is M&a in nature big guys taking on debt and getting married and getting more efficient (trimming good paying jobs).. They pretty much taken that as far as they could.. Share butbacks have really fluffed numbers too.. It's all a game ... These guys can flip the script when they want..

The the imbalances (rich/poor divide in the western economy) they created with QE utter comedy.. Heli bens academic theory that QE showers the system with liquidity and eventually trickles down utter failure as expected ... No original thought in central banking land just Ivy League inbreeding thoughts masterbating each other about how smart they are... They backed in a corner now not much they can do other than fed speak ... Or maybe QE more if they choose won't fix shit just dig deeper hole and maybe fluff markets a bit near term...

As for oil other than Saudis and such nobody can even sniff a profit at 20-30 a barrel .. That said the Saudi economy showering the have nots with socialistic revenues get worse with oil drop regardless ... I have no idea how long and deep this deflationary flush will last but oil will be a great play whenever that happens.. People still got live and oil remains a big part of daily life worldwide.. Oil also led the flush back in 2007 stocks following later... QE and 0% rates also created a bubble in shale/natty gas that is now bursting many will close up shop and lessons will be learned... World population going nowhere but up long term and nothing (alt energy wise) can remotely come close to oil at these prices...
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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That really hasn't been the MO of central banks over the last 30 years. It has been cut, raise, recession, cut.

Now they're in a bind where it is already ZIRP, can't cut anymore.

They're not gonna let the market die like that either, their would be a lot of fleeing to fixed income. I'd be in favor of raising rates to a more normal rate environment but I just don't see it happening.

We've got so much going for us than Japan so i don't think that is the end game but it is certainly similar.

I'd argue in many ways we off worse than japan

savings (Japan heavy savers) heavy saving bad as far as deflation and stock markets but as far as social stability and your average joe he has a cushion if things go bad.. We ha e been beaten into this mentality that deflation a bad thing.. Its not so simple.. For savers with a good education, stable job, and some economic understanding to see through all the media bullshit.. it can be a very good thing.. Deflation teaches/forces personal ecomonmic conservatism and savings .. Obviously out country needs a lot of that .. Vs spending for today debt slaves..

educated population .. Us brain drain comical yes we got some bright people and decent influx of bright ones from outside in our melting pot.. But the dumb ones with no savings with no future the main ones multiplying here... And they've become a very entitled society believing government owes them something.. Bernie hyper socialist has a better chance the worse economy gets going into election...dependency on government has never been higher.. And Japan nowhere close to us in that

unhealthy population .. Way u healthier thN Japan... Baby boomer generation hitting us .. And most fat unhealthy slobs.. That we can now keep alive for a while through modern medicine.. Gonna cost taxpayer pretty penny .. Just debt more I guess?

domestic demand for anything outside the health care industry will be crap for a long time going forward only real growth out there are us multinationals in developing economies.. I mean you got Netflix, good, amazon etc but that's just displacement their gain at expense of the old way of doing things.. China has been global engine for a while.. They pushed to hard to fast too .. Pushing economic activity forward again for the sake of stability at the sacrifice the the future ... creating things like big buildings/empty cities that nobody can afford...
 

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I'd argue in many ways we off worse than japan

savings (Japan heavy savers) heavy saving bad as far as deflation and stock markets but as far as social stability and your average joe he has a cushion if things go bad.. We ha e been beaten into this mentality that deflation a bad thing.. Its not so simple.. For savers with a good education, stable job, and some economic understanding to see through all the media bullshit.. it can be a very good thing.. Deflation teaches/forces personal ecomonmic conservatism and savings .. Obviously out country needs a lot of that .. Vs spending for today debt slaves..

educated population .. Us brain drain comical yes we got some bright people and decent influx of bright ones from outside in our melting pot.. But the dumb ones with no savings with no future the main ones multiplying here... And they've become a very entitled society believing government owes them something.. Bernie hyper socialist has a better chance the worse economy gets going into election...dependency on government has never been higher.. And Japan nowhere close to us in that

unhealthy population .. Way u healthier thN Japan... Baby boomer generation hitting us .. And most fat unhealthy slobs.. That we can now keep alive for a while through modern medicine.. Gonna cost taxpayer pretty penny .. Just debt more I guess?

domestic demand for anything outside the health care industry will be crap for a long time going forward only real growth out there are us multinationals in developing economies.. I mean you got Netflix, good, amazon etc but that's just displacement their gain at expense of the old way of doing things.. China has been global engine for a while.. They pushed to hard to fast too .. Pushing economic activity forward again for the sake of stability at the sacrifice the the future ... creating things like big buildings/empty cities that nobody can afford...

Savings - Yeah, we bastardized our system. We can't handle any deflation because it creates a crumbling house of cards scenario. When all it should create is a minor contraction cycle. I do think if SHTF for real we could bring the cost of living down significantly if we truly wanted to in fields like education, health care, housing and possibly food production. Not sure on the last 1. I'll let you respond to that being from the heartland.

Educated population - We have the dumbest people but we also have the smartest. With our infrastructure in terms of big business/university research we have the most likely chance to innovate our way out of a mess. I do think we're coming into a time of accelerating innovation (although not sure how a recession would slow the rate of that but I know it wouldn't help) Any deflation just creates a debt spiral now.

Unhealthy population - Yeah this is awful. 1 of the biggest problems we have. A lot of companies that serve garbage need to go out of business. Huge drain on the system.

One thing you do leave out is the fact that we're a resource rich country and Japan has nothing. Granted this has driven them to innovate out of necessity but they can't top us in innovation. We have more oil, coal, nat gas, manufacturing, materials, industrial power, land etc

Even our economy at 90% of capacity I'm not sure how bad it would get. We do have a lot of rich natural resources and some of our problems can be fixed very quickly if there is a true necessity to do so.

A lot of overpaid people living off the bubble will need to have their standard of living significantly downgraded though. Specifically in the fields of education and health care. So many admin/office jobs in these fields just living off taxpayer subsidization.

The system just needs to unwind. Rapid innovation/overall standard of living increase is the answer. The only way an extended recession cycle would be tolerable to most of the population.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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As far as education and cost that's all government created.. Liberalized society beat it into everybody head that everybody deserves a chance.. Sorry everybody we aren't born equal if u born rich u won the lottery.. Just like a poor person in America won the lottery over a starving child in Africa.. Cold hard facts... Problem with the sunshine and unicorns everybody should have a "right"
to a college education crap is it drives prices through the roof.. And let's a bunch of people be drunks for 4-5 years and get. A useless degree..

nothing wrong with having a high school education and being hands on smart in a profession such as say plumbing .. Shortage of skilled people with hands on partial skills.. And only gonna get worse as a baby boomers retire..

me that's another issue that won't right itself anytime soon.. Shortage of skilled productive members of society.. With hoards of young kids with huge debt loads and a crappy worthless education that thinks their lives should be what they see on "reality" TV shows
 

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As far as education and cost that's all government created.. Liberalized society beat it into everybody head that everybody deserves a chance.. Sorry everybody we aren't born equal if u born rich u won the lottery.. Just like a poor person in America won the lottery over a starving child in Africa.. Cold hard facts... Problem with the sunshine and unicorns everybody should have a "right"
to a college education crap is it drives prices through the roof.. And let's a bunch of people be drunks for 4-5 years and get. A useless degree..

nothing wrong with having a high school education and being hands on smart in a profession such as say plumbing .. Shortage of skilled people with hands on partial skills.. And only gonna get worse as a baby boomers retire..

me that's another issue that won't right itself anytime soon.. Shortage of skilled productive members of society.. With hoards of young kids with huge debt loads and a crappy worthless education that thinks their lives should be what they see on "reality" TV shows

Yeah of course. I've said in other threads, this isn't our biggest problem but it is the easiest 1 to solve of our biggest problems.

Make the colleges compete on cost/quality without gov't subsidy and you will see cost go down and quality go up, just like IT/computing. With tech breakthroughs, online learning, teleconferencing software etc you could have the costs go down 75% easily. People think oil or health care but schools the biggest crony capitalists of em all. That is where we really F'd up badly over last 25 years. Nothing worse than endlessly subsidizing a protectionist monopoly that's job is to train the workforce of the future.


Tiz remember a few weeks back you linked that Peter Thiel article where he talked about Musk, among other subjects. He has a lot of good videos on youtube about innovation. A fiscal libertarian. He argues that since 1970 or so we've been in a period of decelerating innovation. I really enjoyed this debate with him and Marc Andreesen (netscape founder)

 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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Yeah libertarianism (obviously not as simple as one specific dogma) only thing that makes any sense on a large scale.. Guys like eekster see socialism work in small scales amongst a group of people with common values on place like Belgium.... So they think it can work everywhere.. It's just a miserable failure on large scale.. In the melting pot of America it just wont work and creates many more problems than solutions long term..
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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That said I think overall it's a lost cause.. America as we know it over.. The few that "get it" outnumbered by uneducated idiots that regurgitate thoughts spread through mass media... Many are happy popping out a few kids and sitting around just getting by getting a government check.. Abuse of liberal disability plan utter comedy... fat drug addicts find a way to get extra handouts ..And the people at the top who "get it" and could do something are power hungry sociopaths.. We Just slowly transforming to a Mexico north with hoards of dumbass people in a high crime society.. With lots of monopolies and upper tier of society owning majority of everything.. Hopefully I'm wrong..
 

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The last 40 years the truest form of free market libertarianism we've had has been in tech/computing and we've had costs plummet and quality soar in many products. Hopefully we can begin to move these advancements more towards other areas.

I.e cars, automation/robots, energy, etc....This is our main hope is that we just solve the problems through transformation and make everyones life better.

There are some inefficiencies in capitalism but we don't need intervention on the grand scale we've had in so many industries. Regulations as well that have stifled innovation and growth.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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take the minimum wage issue.. Liberals now realizing that higher wages bump the bottom up to higher income so they will lose their food stamps.. So no point for them to work 40 hours.. Just work less on higher wage and still get food stamps.. Just funny watching all
the various liberal policies interact and fail miserably as a whole.. Guess that's human nature .. People thinking they know what's best for everyone when in reality the only one that knows is the free market (free market has been dead for a
long time)
 

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That said I think overall it's a lost cause.. America as we know it over.. The few that "get it" outnumbered by uneducated idiots that regurgitate thoughts spread through mass media... Many are happy popping out a few kids and sitting around just getting by getting a government check.. Abuse of liberal disability plan utter comedy... fat drug addicts find a way to get extra handouts ..And the people at the top who "get it" and could do something are power hungry sociopaths.. We Just slowly transforming to a Mexico north with hoards of dumbass people in a high crime society.. With lots of monopolies and upper tier of society owning majority of everything.. Hopefully I'm wrong..

I have more optimism than that. I think a lot of breakthroughs are on the horizon over the next 10-15 years to bail us out (atleast I hope)

Also think the sooner we can fail the sooner the centralized banking social engineering will be defeated. Although maybe 1% of the population even know who Janet Yellen is, maybe 3% know who Bernanke is. Even among educated people, pretty scary.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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The last 40 years the truest form of free market libertarianism we've had has been in tech/computing and we've had costs plummet and quality soar in many products. Hopefully we can begin to move these advancements more towards other areas.

I.e cars, automation/robots, energy, etc....This is our main hope is that we just solve the problems through transformation and make everyones life better.

There are some inefficiencies in capitalism but we don't need intervention on the grand scale we've had in so many industries. Regulations as well that have stifled innovation and growth.

The problem is what is everybody gonna do in this new society? What are the dumb ones gonna do other than get a government hamdout? Will be too many of them and most jobs will be way above their education capacity..

take uber for instant.. Long term perfectly clear where that heading... Robotic cars and no more cab drivers..
 

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The problem is what is everybody gonna do in this new society? What are the dumb ones gonna do other than get a government hamdout? Will be too many of them and most jobs will be way above their education capacity..

take uber for instant.. Long term perfectly clear where that heading... Robotic cars and no more cab drivers..

I can't predict new industries that will form. Throughout history, technology augmenting and assisting workers has freed them up to do more productive work. Starting with agrarian societies and less need for everyone to work on food production.

If education was 75% less then I'm sure we would have a far more educated workforce starting their lives with less debt. Sure some of them wouldn't make big bucks but if cost of living was significantly cheaper in terms of essentials then atleast it is a meritocracy and even the people on the lower end live well.

We definitely need a massive paradigm shift in so many fields.

None of them are perfect but some of the newer guys on the GOP side seem to atleast understand we're we need to go. I'll take Ted Cruz at this point. Atleast he would represent a true shift toward fiscal conservatism, even if he is a bit of a loon.
 

the bear is back biatches!! printing cancel....
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Anyway We can talk about all these issues but when u get down to it.. it all boils down to one simple problem.. Humans have overpopulated the planet and there is no end in sight.. Our planet can only comfortably support a certain amount of us.. And the damge humans are doing to our planet is huge .. i don't even know the number but off the top of my head 70% of world
population lives in poverty...
 

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