Pinnacle lovers=suckers.

ironlock · Aug 31, 2004

Wantitall-

What "conspiracy theory" are you referring to?

That they are "sharp"? Are you disagreeing with this?

Listen....
With access to the sharpest players in the world not to mention their history/tendency, combined with one of the lowest vigs in world, as well as a willingness to take an opinion..., Pinnacle is well equipped to manipulate the market place, and to be creative in doing so..

They do not need to simply hang a market number and move to balance and collect theoretical vig like the clones, although they could.

They have every tool in the world to increase their profitablity. The best info, combined with low prices, and a great reputation among both sharps and squares.

My main point, the one that NO ONE has disagreed with yet..

Is that they are the TOUGHEST BOOK IN THE WORLD to BEAT. So, it follows to wonder why everyone insists on this being the best choice for your opponent?

Pretty simple really.

Iron.

VaultedTreehouse · Aug 31, 2004

I think I play 90% of my action at Pinnacle. By far the best run book I've seen. Plus as a large horse player, the rebates, terrific, grading is fast, customer service is great, payouts fast...should I go on. Just b/c you can't beat them doesn't mean everyone else can't. Some people win, more people lose.

wantitall4moi · Aug 31, 2004

Ironclad-

Now you are contrdicting yourself. If Pinnacle is so tough to beat why would these so called "sharp" players bother with them.

So in essence when you make your argument circular, and look at the title of this post. In essense you are saying that the sharps that love Pinnalce are suckers.

I mena accordingy to you the ONLY player that gets a decent number is the VERY FIRST GUY to bet it? That doesn't make sense. If five sharp guys bet a number how many are going to get it at its best? I think you allude that they are profiling guys and flag money from certain players and take notice more quickly.

To assume that every shapr guy sees the same exact "value" in specific numbers is absurd.

If you look at their moves, and the way they have been adjusting and over adjusting recently you would see they are VERY easy to beat, and I mean VERY. I have tracked my scalp plays forever, and I have every single game from eevery single book. I scanned through it a few months ago when this whole pinnacle debate started (seems it is started monthly), and I didn't see one iota of evidence that showed they were "baiting" guys onto teams. In fact I bet if I broke it down I would say that Pin had "better" numbers on more losers than winner, at least inbases. I know for a fact that has been the case this year. I would say they are 40-60 correct on lines where they have the better numbers by enough to make you notice.

But like I say, they hang the best numbers both ways all the time, so to "grade" those I make a mark of a nickle better than the market line.

I am sure there are other guys on here that can back up that claim. But does that mean the steam was wrong? Or that Pin gambled on the wrong side? See without looking at the books we have no way of knowing. Either they (Pin) are making a killing, or they are getting killed. That is the scarey thing. When they are "losing" or "winning" is never good, no matter how solid a place is. I would rather see an even keel and know they are making money no matter what.

But to think they might be running on fumes is not cool, but if I think they are winning against the steam (something that is seemingly sacreligous) then I know what I win there will always be paid.

So that is why your argument doesn't make sense. If so many sharps are there, then we have to assume the sharps are winning, but how can Pin be so sharp if these guys are still playing there, and winning. If Pin is beating these guys consistantly, and they are SO "SHAPR" then why do they continue to play there at all?

That is the conundrum. Either Pin is not sharp, or the sharps or not sharp, but you can't have it both ways.

Illini · Aug 31, 2004

I think this is much ado about nothing. If you handicap a game and go to bet it, you're going to bet it at the best number you can find. If it happens to be Pinnacle, then you place it. I would have to strongly disagree that anyone who bets there, or even bets there primarily, is a sucker.

Bucky · Aug 31, 2004

Who's zooming who? Who cares? It's all about value! There is a lot of money that gets bet at Pinny by people manageing risk that skews the marketplace. Pinny could raise a number 10 cents on a side in baseball without one single bet and the whole world would raise their number 10 cents to match it. So, the guy that goes out and bets the steam side at a market price that has moved is getting zoomed.
Notice how buy back + odds on baseball totals has really calmed down at Pinny? Steam has mellowed and they don't need to give away so much on the buy back right now. Perhaps, some big fish have stopped playing totals - chilling for football, etc. and they don't need to manage any risk on the number?

Fishhead · Aug 31, 2004

Go with Pinny on these plays

Good luck

pittsburgh +130
seattle +125

VERY surprised if both these dogs were to lose.

ironlock · Aug 31, 2004

Now I remember why I don't post much...its like banging your head against a wall.

If you are going to put words in my mouth, I will not respond.

SportSavant · Aug 31, 2004

ELIMINATING PINNY AS AN OUT IS VERY VERY FOOLISH...

THEY HAVE THE BEST NUMBER ON BOTH SIDES OF THE GAME AT LEAST 40% OF THE TIME.

HOW CAN YOU BEAT THAT?

NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID.... OVER THE LONG HAUL YOU SAVE THOUSANDS & THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

Fishhead · Aug 31, 2004

Hang in there Ironlock, some days are like that.

SportSavant · Aug 31, 2004

that being said...

HAVING PINNY AS YOUR 'ONLY' OUT IS PROBABLY EQUALLY AS FOOLISH....

YOU WILL GET MASSACARED....

Fishhead · Aug 31, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SportSavant:
that being said...

HAVING PINNY AS YOUR 'ONLY' OUT IS PROBABLY EQUALLY AS FOOLISH....

YOU WILL GET MASSACARED.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PINNY>

<PLAYER

Hitman26 · Aug 31, 2004

I agree with Ironlock. I have watched Pinnacle over the last 5 years go from a -108 shop to a -105 shop. I remember when 500$ was the most they would take on a total and 2000$ on a side. Now they have increased their limits to astronomical figures for the major sports. If they weren't the sharpest in the world they would have never grown to what they are now. I don't know how they do it but they do.

Hitman

wantitall4moi · Aug 31, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ironlock:
Yes this is a top 3 book....BUT,

Why does everyone continue to insist on playing and encouraging others to play, at a book that has consistently proven to be the "sharpest" and toughest to beat in the field.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I had to CHOOSE my opponent, or competition, PINNACLE would be the LAST book on my list.
What 'value' is there in getting the 'best number' on the wrong side?

It borders on sheer idiocy...in my opinion.

You are trying to beat the bookie!...(I think).

Do you also go to the pool hall and find the best player for a money game. Hell no. YOu find the idiot...and you take his money. Wise up..nutbags.

Iron. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were the one that, not me, so not sure how I am putting words in your mouth. I also gave MY own argument that Pin's numbers are the best in both directions, so how do you differenciate, and where? I chose to make it at a nickle difference. I have seen them up to 15 cents "better" and LOSE. More than once, and I posted more than a few of them on this very site.

So how is that sharp of them? You make it sound like if you bet there and bet the best number you will never win. your statement, "you are trying to beat the book..." Those were your words too. I don't where I put any words in your mouth at all.

You made the post, asked to be corrected, you were, or at least given an opposing viewpoint, and now you have no comments?

Fishhead · Aug 31, 2004

HITMAN- It is called VOLUME BOOKMAKING(volume with proper bookmaking).

Something 88.3% of offshore sportsbooks have no clue how to do.

ironlock · Aug 31, 2004

Wantit-
To disagree with my BASIC and CLEARLY stated point, you would have to agree that PInnacle is the easiest book to beat.

You are fuking moron if this is what you believe.

If you DO NOT believe this, then shut the fuk up...and stop acting like I'm saying anything else but that PINNACLE'S numbers are the sharpest numbers out there...and they are the toughest book to beat for someone that likes the best number.

Name a book that is tougher to beat than Pinnacle..paaaaaaahhhlleeeese.

Crickets chirping.

Exactly.

Did I say no sharps play there? NO
Did I say all their action is sharp? NO
Did I say that for a book to be sharp all the players had to be losers? NO
Did I say that scalpers cannot effectively use PINNY? NO
Did I say that this is a shitty book? NO
Did I say that pinnacle does not offer Value? NO
Did I say they are trying to "trick us"? NO
Did I say that no one can beat them? NO
Did I say that that gamble on all sides? NO
Did I say that all their shaded lines win? NO
Did I say that you could blindly follow their lead and win? NO
Did I say that if you bet there and bet the best number you would never win? NO
Did It even sound like I said that? NO

NOw take your ignorant...1 track paranoid mind, and argue with someone that actually disagrees with you.

I agree with much of what you say, but you put me in some box that I simply do not occupy.

I wasn't talking about scalping, and I never said 99% of the stuff you characterize me as standing for.

tatehill2000 · Aug 31, 2004

There are a FEW Books out there THat do have some of their Sharpest Players Flagged,,and they WILL Hold a Line to accept more on their Opposing side,,,, (VERY FEW BOOKS)

I dont know this to be sure,,but Ive Watched Pinnys Lines Moves for 2 years,,, and if there is anything that they are is Consistant,,,

I havent noticed anything strange,,,they just know how to BALANCE their Monies,,,, they have the Market cornered with their Programming,,,

***********************
OF it was me on the 5 Inning Bases Plays,,,this is my First year to Cap Bases,,,,
Tater

ironlock · Aug 31, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SportSavant:
that being said...

HAVING PINNY AS YOUR 'ONLY' OUT IS PROBABLY EQUALLY AS FOOLISH....

YOU WILL GET MASSACARED.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. Very tough think to understand for some...

SportSavant · Aug 31, 2004

absolutely IRONLOCK...

if people are foolish enough to have pinny as their ONLY out they are digging their own grave...

but I do feel strongly that ELIMINATING them is also (although not as dangerous) a very damaging MOVE.

OMNIVOROUS FROG · Aug 31, 2004

Thank You fishy, was waiting for someone to spit it out. They are the Costco. Warehouse prices on both sides. Volume, and more volume. Higher limits, much more volume. Horse rebate, best around. Best vig, best out a majority of the time. Anyone with multiple outs needs this Pinnacle as the foundation book. Where they really earn are the action battles. Group vs. group. Back and forth, and they earn on every move. Going to be much different with Foots. Real hits come in on NFL. Colleges also. The real deal is about to commence. I will fire away at Pinnacle, relentlessly. I will sit on the screen and them. DBest and vacation is officially over. Fasten your seatbelts gentle men...The real deal is almost here. Best Wishes...OF

Ironlock, my most humblest apologies...it was Tate, I remember now. No good false accusing frog. I better take possession of dunce cap back. Pinnacle Sucker for Life! FROGGY

SubZaero · Aug 31, 2004

To answer your question Iron, IMO.

80% of the bettors do not care much about winning or losing, but, GETTING PAID promptly when they win.
These kind of bettors (specially here at the Rx), love to get "value" and good numbers, and they love the action, and all they want, IF they win, is a fast payout.
Besides, they take pride on beating a shop like Pinny. In moments when the industry is getting hit by books that go belly up in less than 6 months or scammers stiffing players out of thousands of dollars, they like to recommend books that do not do that.