I have studied this topic for years, read many books, including what PHD's & leading experts have to say about it on all sides of the issue.
"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
"I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome"
"St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "
Yet everyone will find that "life" you speak of, even if they are of those who go to the purifying "lake of fire":
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
"St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "
Again, an end of punishment does not equate necessarily to universalism. I am very well aware of the sources you are quoting, and again, the argument that universalism was the majority view of the early church is quite a stretch. That's just a fact.
X,
With all due respect, you are the devil's advocate on everything. Normally I appreciate that, but you always color it with your beliefs being the right beliefs. Whether it be COVID, religion, etc. What is the purpose? Do you think we are all just going to say that because you said something it becomes true?
You believe that God is all forgiving...fine, some do. And I respect your beliefs. But you don't know any more than anyone else here. I choose to believe what I do, which is no better or worse than your opinion on something.
There are many references to hell spoken by Jesus himself in the Bible. Who do I go with here, Jesus, or X-Files, a guy on the internet. I'll take my chances with the man himself, live my life knowing that it doesn't matter if there is a hell, cause I'm not going there anyway because I accept Jesus as my Savior, and that he died for my sins.
Go outside bro, get some fresh Canada air, and spend some time on other things besides trying to convert internet folks to your beliefs.
With all due respect, you are the devil's advocate on everything. Normally I appreciate that, but you always color it with your beliefs being the right beliefs. Whether it be COVID, religion, etc. What is the purpose? Do you think we are all just going to say that because you said something it becomes true?
You believe that God is all forgiving...fine, some do. And I respect your beliefs. But you don't know any more than anyone else here. I choose to believe what I do, which is no better or worse than your opinion on something.
There are many references to hell spoken by Jesus himself in the Bible. Who do I go with here, Jesus, or X-Files, a guy on the internet. I'll take my chances with the man himself, live my life knowing that it doesn't matter if there is a hell, cause I'm not going there anyway because I accept Jesus as my Savior, and that he died for my sins.
Go outside bro, get some fresh Canada air, and spend some time on other things besides trying to convert internet folks to your beliefs.
(1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five
"It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122
The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.
(2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan
"...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)
(Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).
If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?
(3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).
(4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism
Jerome says:
"I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1
I don't "always" do that. But that's exactly what you did with your dogmatic comments i was responding to here:
You said:
Do you think we are all just going to accept that Love Omnipotent is a sicko sadist monster infinitely worse than Hitler just because you or anyone else says so.
Do you think we are all just going to accept your dogmatic claims above that unless "you believe that he is the one true God, the Savior of the Universe then you face eternity apart from Him. Pretty cut and dry in the Bible and what is taught by many Christian Churches"?
Some people do "know more than" others do. That is a fact. Some "know" there is a God. Others are ignorant re that fact. Some "know" that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God. Others are ignorant of that fact. Some "know" that He will save all. Others are ignorant of that fact.
Sure there is hell, or more accurately Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus & the lake of fire. But none of them is a torture chamber where anyone will be fried alive for all eternity while the saints in heaven cheer. If Love Omnipotent wouldn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
Clearly go with Jesus & His inspired Word, which includes the writings of Paul i've quoted earlier in this thread in support of universal salvation.
Here is something else you dogmatically speak of "knowing". Hopefully you are not wrong. Because there is a postmortem "hell" that is avoidable.
What about the people who haven't accepted Jesus as Saviour? Does it not matter that they hear the truth, the gospel & about "hell", especially if one believes this life is their only chance to avoid an endless inquisition chamber?
I do get outside almost daily for fresh air with my mask on.
As for converting people, that's between them & God. All i can do is tell it as i see it as i am compelled to do.
Originally Posted by Heatwave
With all due respect, you are the devil's advocate on everything. Normally I appreciate that, but you always color it with your beliefs being the right beliefs.
I don't "always" do that. But that's exactly what you did with your dogmatic comments i was responding to here:
Originally Posted by Heatwave
He will save you if you believe that he is the one true God, the Savior of the Universe. If you don't believe, then you face eternity apart from Him. Pretty cut and dry in the Bible and what is taught by many Christian Churches.
You said:
Originally Posted by Heatwave
Whether it be COVID, religion, etc. What is the purpose? Do you think we are all just going to say that because you said something it becomes true?
Do you think we are all just going to accept that Love Omnipotent is a sicko sadist monster infinitely worse than Hitler just because you or anyone else says so.
Do you think we are all just going to accept your dogmatic claims above that unless "you believe that he is the one true God, the Savior of the Universe then you face eternity apart from Him. Pretty cut and dry in the Bible and what is taught by many Christian Churches"?
Originally Posted by Heatwave
You believe that God is all forgiving...fine, some do. And I respect your beliefs. But you don't know any more than anyone else here. I choose to believe what I do, which is no better or worse than your opinion on something.
Some people do "know more than" others do. That is a fact. Some "know" there is a God. Others are ignorant re that fact. Some "know" that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God. Others are ignorant of that fact. Some "know" that He will save all. Others are ignorant of that fact.
Originally Posted by Heatwave
There are many references to hell spoken by Jesus himself in the Bible.
Sure there is hell, or more accurately Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus & the lake of fire. But none of them is a torture chamber where anyone will be fried alive for all eternity while the saints in heaven cheer. If Love Omnipotent wouldn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
Originally Posted by Heatwave
Who do I go with here, Jesus, or X-Files, a guy on the internet.
Clearly go with Jesus & His inspired Word, which includes the writings of Paul i've quoted earlier in this thread in support of universal salvation.
Originally Posted by Heatwave
I'll take my chances with the man himself, live my life knowing that it doesn't matter if there is a hell, cause I'm not going there anyway because I accept Jesus as my Savior, and that he died for my sins.
Here is something else you dogmatically speak of "knowing". Hopefully you are not wrong. Because there is a postmortem "hell" that is avoidable.
What about the people who haven't accepted Jesus as Saviour? Does it not matter that they hear the truth, the gospel & about "hell", especially if one believes this life is their only chance to avoid an endless inquisition chamber?
Originally Posted by Heatwave
Go outside bro, get some fresh Canada air, and spend some time on other things besides trying to convert internet folks to your beliefs.
I do get outside almost daily for fresh air with my mask on.
As for converting people, that's between them & God. All i can do is tell it as i see it as i am compelled to do.
X-Fag ruins another thread.
Nah, I think X and I are on same page theoretically, at least as far as our religious beliefs. I think we all hope that Doug rests in peace.
My point was that sometimes I think he rides on the high horse sometimes, and at the end of the day, there is a difference between opinion and fact. Opinions don't automatically turn into facts because you site an article or a book. That goes for me as well. I think during this pandemic many have gotten confused about this. It's good dialogue.
I don't believe that hell is a fiery place that have the saints laughing at you. But I do believe hell, as a concept, does exist, and that God, despite having the ability to forgive anyone and everyone at any time, will not save those who do not believe that Jesus came to save the world from sin. This, generally speaking, is not fact, but opinion, since I don't know it firsthand or have scientific proof. However, I feel strongly about my position on this.
My point was that sometimes I think he rides on the high horse sometimes, and at the end of the day, there is a difference between opinion and fact. Opinions don't automatically turn into facts because you site an article or a book. That goes for me as well. I think during this pandemic many have gotten confused about this. It's good dialogue.
I don't believe that hell is a fiery place that have the saints laughing at you. But I do believe hell, as a concept, does exist, and that God, despite having the ability to forgive anyone and everyone at any time, will not save those who do not believe that Jesus came to save the world from sin. This, generally speaking, is not fact, but opinion, since I don't know it firsthand or have scientific proof. However, I feel strongly about my position on this.
Annihilation that never ends is certainly a punishment. So arguably an end to all punishments implies universalism.
Moreover at the time there was slim evidence of annihilationism as a view in the church.
See also: http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=1164786&page=3&p=13237457&viewfull=1#post13237457
hno:
