I don't understand all of this "George Bush created ISIS" talk. Educate me please

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Errors and Lies

MAY 18, 2015




Paul Krugman




Surprise! It turns out that there’s something to be said for having the brother of a failed president make his own run for the White House. Thanks to Jeb Bush, we may finally have the frank discussion of the Iraq invasion we should have had a decade ago.
But many influential people — not just Mr. Bush — would prefer that we not have that discussion. There’s a palpable sense right now of the political and media elite trying to draw a line under the subject. Yes, the narrative goes, we now know that invading Iraq was a terrible mistake, and it’s about time that everyone admits it. Now let’s move on.

Well, let’s not — because that’s a false narrative, and everyone who was involved in the debate over the war knows that it’s false. The Iraq war wasn’t an innocent mistake, a venture undertaken on the basis of intelligence that turned out to be wrong. America invaded Iraq because the Bush administration wanted a war. The public justifications for the invasion were nothing but pretexts, and falsified pretexts at that. We were, in a fundamental sense, lied into war.
The fraudulence of the case for war was actually obvious even at the time: the ever-shifting arguments for an unchanging goal were a dead giveaway. So were the word games — the talk about W.M.D that conflated chemical weapons (which many people did think Saddam had) with nukes, the constant insinuations that Iraq was somehow behind 9/11.
And at this point we have plenty of evidence to confirm everything the war’s opponents were saying. We now know, for example, that on 9/11 itself — literally before the dust had settled — Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, was already plotting war against a regime that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack. “Judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H. [Saddam Hussein] ...sweep it all up things related and not”; so read notes taken by Mr. Rumsfeld’s aide.
This was, in short, a war the White House wanted, and all of the supposed mistakes that, as Jeb puts it, “were made” by someone unnamed actually flowed from this underlying desire. Did the intelligence agencies wrongly conclude that Iraq had chemical weapons and a nuclear program? That’s because they were under intense pressure to justify the war. Did prewar assessments vastly understate the difficulty and cost of occupation? That’s because the war party didn’t want to hear anything that might raise doubts about the rush to invade. Indeed, the Army’s chief of staff was effectively fired for questioning claims that the occupation phase would be cheap and easy.
Why did they want a war? That’s a harder question to answer. Some of the warmongers believed that deploying shock and awe in Iraq would enhance American power and influence around the world. Some saw Iraq as a sort of pilot project, preparation for a series of regime changes. And it’s hard to avoid the suspicion that there was a strong element of wagging the dog, of using military triumph to strengthen the Republican brand at home.
Whatever the precise motives, the result was a very dark chapter in American history. Once again: We were lied into war.

Now, you can understand why many political and media figures would prefer not to talk about any of this. Some of them, I suppose, may have been duped: may have fallen for the obvious lies, which doesn’t say much about their judgment. More, I suspect, were complicit: they realized that the official case for war was a pretext, but had their own reasons for wanting a war, or, alternatively, allowed themselves to be intimidated into going along. For there was a definite climate of fear among politicians and pundits in 2002 and 2003, one in which criticizing the push for war looked very much like a career killer.
On top of these personal motives, our news media in general have a hard time coping with policy dishonesty. Reporters are reluctant to call politicians on their lies, even when these involve mundane issues like budget numbers, for fear of seeming partisan. In fact, the bigger the lie, the clearer it is that major political figures are engaged in outright fraud, the more hesitant the reporting. And it doesn’t get much bigger — indeed, more or less criminal — than lying America into war.
But truth matters, and not just because those who refuse to learn from history are doomed in some general sense to repeat it. The campaign of lies that took us into Iraq was recent enough that it’s still important to hold the guilty individuals accountable. Never mind Jeb Bush’s verbal stumbles. Think, instead, about his foreign-policy team, led by people who were directly involved in concocting a false case for war.

So let’s get the Iraq story right. Yes, from a national point of view the invasion was a mistake. But (with apologies to Talleyrand) it was worse than a mistake, it was a crime.
 

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"it was the "risk calculation" that had altered since 9/11, rather than the intelligence about WMDs."#


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Tony Blair Iraq essay full text: We have to liberate ourselves from the notion that 'we' caused this crisis. We haven't


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I understand your point, I just disagree with it. In order to defeat this enemy, and help prevent them springing up continuously, it certainly helps to understand their origins, why they came to be, what you can do to avoid it again and again. ISIS was created by our reckless War in Iraq. ISIS will not be defeated by bombing them into submission. You can't bomb ideas away.



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Errors and Lies

MAY 18, 2015




Paul Krugman




Surprise! It turns out that there’s something to be said for having the brother of a failed president make his own run for the White House. Thanks to Jeb Bush, we may finally have the frank discussion of the Iraq invasion we should have had a decade ago.
But many influential people — not just Mr. Bush — would prefer that we not have that discussion. There’s a palpable sense right now of the political and media elite trying to draw a line under the subject. Yes, the narrative goes, we now know that invading Iraq was a terrible mistake, and it’s about time that everyone admits it. Now let’s move on.

Well, let’s not — because that’s a false narrative, and everyone who was involved in the debate over the war knows that it’s false. The Iraq war wasn’t an innocent mistake, a venture undertaken on the basis of intelligence that turned out to be wrong. America invaded Iraq because the Bush administration wanted a war. The public justifications for the invasion were nothing but pretexts, and falsified pretexts at that. We were, in a fundamental sense, lied into war.
The fraudulence of the case for war was actually obvious even at the time: the ever-shifting arguments for an unchanging goal were a dead giveaway. So were the word games — the talk about W.M.D that conflated chemical weapons (which many people did think Saddam had) with nukes, the constant insinuations that Iraq was somehow behind 9/11.
And at this point we have plenty of evidence to confirm everything the war’s opponents were saying. We now know, for example, that on 9/11 itself — literally before the dust had settled — Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, was already plotting war against a regime that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack. “Judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H. [Saddam Hussein] ...sweep it all up things related and not”; so read notes taken by Mr. Rumsfeld’s aide.
This was, in short, a war the White House wanted, and all of the supposed mistakes that, as Jeb puts it, “were made” by someone unnamed actually flowed from this underlying desire. Did the intelligence agencies wrongly conclude that Iraq had chemical weapons and a nuclear program? That’s because they were under intense pressure to justify the war. Did prewar assessments vastly understate the difficulty and cost of occupation? That’s because the war party didn’t want to hear anything that might raise doubts about the rush to invade. Indeed, the Army’s chief of staff was effectively fired for questioning claims that the occupation phase would be cheap and easy.
Why did they want a war? That’s a harder question to answer. Some of the warmongers believed that deploying shock and awe in Iraq would enhance American power and influence around the world. Some saw Iraq as a sort of pilot project, preparation for a series of regime changes. And it’s hard to avoid the suspicion that there was a strong element of wagging the dog, of using military triumph to strengthen the Republican brand at home.
Whatever the precise motives, the result was a very dark chapter in American history. Once again: We were lied into war.

Now, you can understand why many political and media figures would prefer not to talk about any of this. Some of them, I suppose, may have been duped: may have fallen for the obvious lies, which doesn’t say much about their judgment. More, I suspect, were complicit: they realized that the official case for war was a pretext, but had their own reasons for wanting a war, or, alternatively, allowed themselves to be intimidated into going along. For there was a definite climate of fear among politicians and pundits in 2002 and 2003, one in which criticizing the push for war looked very much like a career killer.
On top of these personal motives, our news media in general have a hard time coping with policy dishonesty. Reporters are reluctant to call politicians on their lies, even when these involve mundane issues like budget numbers, for fear of seeming partisan. In fact, the bigger the lie, the clearer it is that major political figures are engaged in outright fraud, the more hesitant the reporting. And it doesn’t get much bigger — indeed, more or less criminal — than lying America into war.
But truth matters, and not just because those who refuse to learn from history are doomed in some general sense to repeat it. The campaign of lies that took us into Iraq was recent enough that it’s still important to hold the guilty individuals accountable. Never mind Jeb Bush’s verbal stumbles. Think, instead, about his foreign-policy team, led by people who were directly involved in concocting a false case for war.

So let’s get the Iraq story right. Yes, from a national point of view the invasion was a mistake. But (with apologies to Talleyrand) it was worse than a mistake, it was a crime.

Krugman considers himself a liberal, calling one of his books and his New York Times blog The Conscience of a Liberal
 

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Krugman considers himself a liberal, calling one of his books and his New York Times blog The Conscience of a Liberal

And??? He's a liberal, but, as most Liberals, Moderates, and sane Republicans and Conservatives, he's absolutely correct about the Travesty of the Iraq War and it's current day consequences.
 

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And??? He's a liberal, but, as most Liberals, Moderates, and sane Republicans and Conservatives, he's absolutely correct about the Travesty of the Iraq War and it's current day consequences.


Blair said we should be proud of the war

uk_us_flags.jpg
 

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I understand your point, I just disagree with it. In order to defeat this enemy, and help prevent them springing up continuously, it certainly helps to understand their origins, why they came to be, what you can do to avoid it again and again. ISIS was created by our reckless War in Iraq. ISIS will not be defeated by bombing them into submission. You can't bomb ideas away.

You can't bomb away ideas but you can destroy a military threat posed by those ideas.

German Fascism destroyed as a military threat Second World War.

Italian Fascism as a military threat destroyed Second World War.
 

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In order to understand the present and future, you have to examine the past and what brought you to this point, in order to avoid making the same mistakes that got you here again and again. America has not learned from it's mistakes, and keeps doing the same dumb things, no matter the President. Intervene, Interfere, rinse repeat.


Blaming America.


Only a
Donkey_from_Shrek.jpg


would blame America.
 

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Blair said we should be proud of the war

uk_us_flags.jpg

Blair is GB's W, or even worse, a W lapdog. Not something to be proud of. Both were blights on their Country. I can't talk of Tony's Domestic policies, but his Foreign Policy was as clueless as our idiot's.
cn5388937c.jpg
 

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You can't bomb away ideas but you can destroy a military threat posed by those ideas.

German Fascism destroyed as a military threat Second World War.

Italian Fascism as a military threat destroyed Second World War.

Not so easy when ISIS is not representing or ruling any Country(s), and is imbedded among Civilians and Country's that don't share their ideology.
 

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by vitterd

Really? I think it spells it out pretty good.

Without the invasion of Iraq....Isis probably doesn't exist.



Take out the word Probably.


  1. 1999
    Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Date founded
.
 

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Not so easy when ISIS is not representing any Country(s), and is imbedded among Civilians and Country's that don't share their ideology.


The World Wars were TOTAL WARS. Nagasaki and Hiroshima had no military targets but they were destroyed. Berlin was destroyed as were many cites. It was total war. Now only military are targeted and not the civilian structure that supports the ideology, that is the major difference.
 

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Originally Posted by vitterd

Really? I think it spells it out pretty good.

Without the invasion of Iraq....Isis probably doesn't exist.






  1. 1999
    Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Date founded
.

Sorry SB, but I'll take the word of this, over some random unreliable Wiki date.

http://www.nctc.gov/site/groups/aqi.html
Al-Qa‘ida in Iraq (AQI)
Al-Qa‘ida in Iraq (AQI), also known as the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) and more recently the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), was established in April 2004 by long-time Sunni extremist Abu Mus‘ab al-Zarqawi, who the same year pledged his group’s allegiance to Usama Bin Ladin. AQI targeted Coalition forces and civilians using tactics such as vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices (VBIEDs), suicide bombers, and executions of hostages by beheading and other means, attempting to pressure countries and foreign companies to leave Iraq, push Iraqis to stop supporting the United States and the Iraqi Government, and attract additional cadre to its ranks.
Al-Zarqawi was killed in a US airstrike on 7 June 2006. The new leader of AQI, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, announced in October 2006 the formation of the Islamic State of Iraq, led by Iraqi national Abu Umar al-Baghdadi, in an attempt to politicize AQI’s terrorist activities and place an “Iraqi face” on their efforts.
In 2007 AQI’s continued targeting and repression of Sunni civilians caused a widespread backlash—known as the Sunni Awakening—against the group. The development of the Awakening
Councils—composed primarily of Sunni tribal and local community leaders—coincided with a surge in Coalition forces and Iraqi Government operations that denied AQI its safehavens, restricting the organization’s freedom of movement and resulting in a decreased attack tempo beginning in mid-2007.
High-profile attacks in 2009 and 2010 demonstrated not just the group’s relevance in the wake of the Coalition withdrawal from Iraqi cities in 2009, but also its efforts to posture itself to take advantage of the changing security environment. Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Umar al-Baghdadi were killed in April 2010, marking a significant loss for the organization.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became AQI’s next leader, and the group has continued conducting high-profile attacks in Iraq and has made efforts to expand within the region. Suicide bombers and car bombs during the first half of 2013 caused about 1,000 Iraqi deaths, the highest monthly violent death tolls since 2008. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in April 2013 declared the group was operating in Syria and changed its public name to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. When al-Baghdadi announced the creation of the ISIL, he claimed AQI had founded the al-Nusrah Front in Syria and that the groups were merging. Al-Nusrah Front, however, denied the merger and publicly pledged allegiance to al-Qa‘ida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri.
AQI expanded its targeting outside of Iraq in August 2005 by attempting a rocket attack on a US Navy ship in the Port of Aqaba, Jordan, and in November 2005 with the bombing of three hotels in Amman that left 67 dead and more than 150 injured. The group’s official spokesperson and its leader in 2012 made vague threats against Americans everywhere. The arrests in May 2011 of two AQI-affiliated Iraqi refugees in Kentucky highlight the potential threat inside the United States from people associated with AQI.
 

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The World Wars were TOTAL WARS. Nagasaki and Hiroshima had no military targets but they were destroyed. Berlin was destroyed as were many cites. It was total war. Now only military are targeted and not the civilian structure that supports the ideology, that is the major difference.

Japan and Germany had GOVERNMENTS that had declared War on the US and the Allied forces. ISIS and other terrorist groups are not the ruling powers of any specific Country that we can attack. They have their tentacles everywhere, so where exactly do we attack and bomb. Texas? Australia? Even the countries where they have their strongest presence(Iraq, Syria) are trying to root them out. Hopefully they succeed, because that's the only way they are ultimately defeated, not by US Bombs, troops, or Drones. We are invaders in those Countries.
 

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Not so easy when ISIS is not representing or ruling any Country(s), and is imbedded among Civilians and Country's that don't share their ideology.


The indigenous population does share there ideology, the Sunni areas welcome them with open arms. Insurgency can only survive if the population harbours them.

IRA was defeated not by the British Army but by the Catholic population that turned its back on their violence and gave them up.

Basque separatists (ETA) were similarly disowned .

The support for ISIS from the population it is embedded in needs to stop.

They control the Caliphate area with very little or no argument or resistance or civil disorder.

The local populations flock to watch the public executions and readily submit to Shari law.
 

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Japan and Germany had GOVERNMENTS that had declared War on the US and the Allied forces. ISIS and other terrorist groups are not the ruling powers of any specific Country that we can attack. They have their tentacles everywhere, so where exactly do we attack and bomb. Texas? Australia?


They rule the Caliphate. The capital is Raqqa.

They rule areas of Iraq and Syria. They don't rule Texas.
 

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They rule the Caliphate. The capital is Raqqa.

They rule areas of Iraq and Syria. They don't rule Texas.

The Caliphate isn't a Country. Syria and Assad is trying to fight them in Raqqa. Iran is trying to fight them in Iraq. Whose side are we on? Let them fight amongst themselves, because one thing they are unified on is they don't like invaders.
 

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The indigenous population does share there ideology, the Sunni areas welcome them with open arms. Insurgency can only survive if the population harbours them.

IRA was defeated not by the British Army but by the Catholic population that turned its back on their violence and gave them up.

Basque separatists (ETA) were similarly disowned .

The support for ISIS from the population it is embedded in needs to stop.

They control the Caliphate area with very little or no argument or resistance or civil disorder.

The local populations flock to watch the public executions and readily submit to Shari law.

It's a Sunni-Shia, factional regional problem, and they can settle it, or not settle it, amongst themselves. The only thing that unifies all sides is their distaste for invaders.
 

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