CITIZENFOUR link... great documentary about Ed Snowden

[scottcarter]

There are some who will never forgive any person who leaked info that jeopardized the lives of 19 year old kids in the Military who were just trying to patriotically serve their country and I personally will never take issue with them feeling that way.

Portraying Snowden and others who'd reveal unacceptable (and illegal) Gov't Tactics that violate our Constitution as Traitors guilty of that would be the very first and chief argument however of ANY GOV'T though so ya gotta "take it with a grain of salt" or, in the case of our US Gov't. take it with multiple grains of salts cuz seriously...

We are more surrounded by Liars, Powerless Puppets to those who really have the power than our forefathers were or would have ever been able to imagine possible.

Big Business/Christian Conservatives rent out The White House at their pleasure. Congress is a wholly owned subsidiary of General Dynamics and other Military Contractors. That is simple Reality whether you like it or not. Any politician who is not also their Prostitute is a politician that gets killed, is felled by Scandal or just does not get elected in the first place.

This thread has already plopped more than enough keyword combinations to see it being monitored by NSA as you read this.

Hi Guy.



Hope you're doing well and you're able to watch the game this weekend.

No need to add me to any watchlist, I ain't no threat. The extent of my Revolutionary Activity will be moving to a beach somewhere and battling waves. I am no threat to you.
​

you and pocket both make solid points and its kinda nice to discuss things respectfully even though we disagree on this one. The thing I feel I need to correct you on is when you said "Big Business/Christian Conservatives rent out The White House at their pleasure". It should read ..."Big Business/Conservatives/Democrats rent out The White House at their pleasure."

:toast:

 

[pocketrockets]

you and pocket both make solid points and its kinda nice to discuss things respectfully even though we disagree on this one. The thing I feel I need to correct you on is when you said "Big Business/Christian Conservatives rent out The White House at their pleasure". It should read ..."Big Business/Conservatives/Democrats rent out The White House at their pleasure."

:toast:

+1000000000000

Republicans/Democrats... same shite

 

[Greenbacks]

Snowden was entrusted with classified information, he betrayed that trust and his country.


Traitor :>(

 

[pocketrockets]

Snowden was entrusted with classified information, he betrayed that trust and his country.


Traitor :>(

The country didnt betray their citizens first by spying on them without court approval? Is the constitution an invalid document nowadays?

 

[ML Dog]

you and pocket both make solid points and its kinda nice to discuss things respectfully even though we disagree on this one. The thing I feel I need to correct you on is when you said "Big Business/Christian Conservatives rent out The White House at their pleasure". It should read ..."Big Business/Conservatives/Democrats rent out The White House at their pleasure.":toast:

I'll give ya that and raise ya the inclusion pf PACs, Special Interest Groups and Foreign Governments lol.

While I know its inconceivable, based on the length of my posts on the whole here at RX, that I do try to be mindful of keeping posts short/avoiding loooooooong posts...I actually try to make them as short as possible lmfao.

Thus the lack of inclusion of the Dems.

I'll agree that a civilized intelligent discussion on these matters would be incredible. It'd also be totally unprecedented & possibly be the only one ever. Anywhere.

I must encourage again though, a consideration of "Determinism" because the possibility exists that regardless of this discussion, any other discussions or anything else the end result may be only one possible outcome, a thing we have no control over whatsoever and "The Universe Unfolding As It Should"....the way it was "supposed to come out all along."

The only dude who would have known for sure whether this was the case died. Of course.

Natural Causes though...as far as I know anyways.

If it was natural causes then obviously the Universe itself feels like we....I guess....need to figure this out on our own? lol. That we don't deserve no "cheat sheet" or possibly that the answer...knowing that would bring Humanity to a screechin' fuggin halt. Which it may very well do.

Absolute Knowledge that we can have in fact no effect on the outcome of big picture stuff such as the state/condition this planet winds up in...if we were to find that we were completely powerless and just aboard a larger version of The Log Ride at Knott's Berry Farm....what would that do to the Human Psyche enMasse?

So be warned...delving into study of "Determinism" may not be all Wine & Roses lol.

I have still yet to determine how much value I place in The Philosophy of Determinism and may very well never get to a place where I know for sure because the question of whether to believe in an idea that means humans are powerless to change the eventual fate of their planet is a deep one involving very deep questions of Philosophy, Religion....and other things I may not even be aware of yet.

Easy question for 99% of humanity though. They'd be able to immediately say with confidence that we are in complete control of both the Destiny of ourselves (i.e. where we wind up...what our lives are and become) and also of the Destiny of this Planet and certainly our Country.

It may be that simple or it may be less simple than that. Each person has to decide based on so many things....how they feel personally.

And this is an absolutely necessary step in determining if you want to battle oppression/wrong stuff or just raise your family the best you can and "pray for the best".


The only reason you wear that Tin Foil Hat and Blue Sunglasses pocket is to hide within the crowd of ExPats down there all wearing Tin Foil Hat and Blue Sunglasses. While its not the Fashion Choice you'd make, were you given the choice I approve of this strategy and feel you've made a good choice.

 

[Greenbacks]

The country didnt betray their citizens first by spying on them without court approval? Is the constitution an invalid document nowadays?

He took the job he did with a premeditated plan to steal information and flee to China with it.He not only revealed the mass collection of data that was being collected,in which he cited moral obligation to the American people,but he revealed secrets to adversaries as well.He also did irreparable damage with our allies by showing them what we were spying on as well.

 

[The Guesser]

He took the job he did with a premeditated plan to steal information and flee to China with it.He not only revealed the mass collection of data that was being collected,in which he cited moral obligation to the American people,but he revealed secrets to adversaries as well.He also did irreparable damage with our allies by showing them what we were spying on as well.

Really????? Have some PROOF of that?

 

[pocketrockets]

I'll give ya that and raise ya the inclusion pf PACs, Special Interest Groups and Foreign Governments lol.

The only reason you wear that Tin Foil Hat and Blue Sunglasses pocket is to hide within the crowd of ExPats down there all wearing Tin Foil Hat and Blue Sunglasses. While its not the Fashion Choice you'd make, were you given the choice I approve of this strategy and feel you've made a good choice.

Well, I wear leather boots instead of flip flops or white nikes... plain shirts instead of NFL jerseys and a leather vest instead of Puma sport jackets.

And I am more of a fan of Sonny Barger instead of Payton Manning so yeah... pretty distinctive.

 

[Greenbacks]

Really????? Have some PROOF of that?

It`s just my opinion that he`s a traitor not a hero in my book....I`ll leave it at that.

 

[pocketrockets]

It`s just my opinion that he`s a traitor not a hero in my book....I`ll leave it at that.

Opinion valid as any... but to say he took the job PLANNING TO SELLOUT TO CHINA... wow... you cant be that naive

 

[The Guesser]

It`s just my opinion that he`s a traitor not a hero in my book....I`ll leave it at that.

That's fine, but when one makes the absolutely ridiculous charge that his intent in taking the job INITIALLY was to gather info and take it to China, WITHOUT ANY PROOF OF SAME, it kinda weakens that person's case.

 

[ML Dog]

Really????? Have some PROOF of that?

Exactly. Thanks.

In actuality he took the job, saw the completely mind-boggling depth of what was going on, how utterly it ravaged the Constitution and Basic Liberties that Humans should have along with powers that Government should not have (because they having and exercising such powers can only have one outcome for the population as a whole) and knew then he had no choice but to spill.

At which point he went through agony trying to find anyway to avoid what was, in essence, volunteering to never be able to live in America again and very possibly be murdered as well but could not wriggle out of knowing that people had (a right) to know and he'd have to be the one to make the truth they deserved to know (and needed to know) available.

Thats a tad bit closer to "he took the job to spill"...for those interested in truth.

Those interested in just ignoring whether you and your family should be free of Government Oppression, Spying and Treachery & the complete shredding of a Constitution and Bill Of Rights & Freedoms a whole bunch of people have given everything even their lives to defend and see that we have should just go with whatever Greenbacks said.

And not attempt to find out what really took place.

"I'd rather be without a state than without a voice." -Snowden
​

 

[MikeB]

It's not up to this guy to determine what he considers right or wrong when it comes to national security. He put American lives at risk.


I hope Russia trades him to ISIS for a bottle of vodka.

 

[ML Dog]

I hope Russia trades him to ISIS for a bottle of vodka.

Who'd get the Vodka in that swap?

Russia don't need no Vodka, ISIS dudes ain't supposed to drink Vodka (against their "religion")...

Russia needs an Economy....I think they'd be looking to trade for that or something like that.

 

[scottcarter]

In actuality he took the job, saw the completely mind-boggling depth of what was going on, how utterly it ravaged the Constitution and Basic Liberties that Humans should have along with powers that Government should not have (because they having and exercising such powers can only have one outcome for the population as a whole) and knew then he had no choice but to spill.

At which point he went through agony trying to find anyway to avoid what was, in essence, volunteering to never be able to live in America again and very possibly be murdered as well but could not wriggle out of knowing that people had (a right) to know and he'd have to be the one to make the truth they deserved to know (and needed to know) available.

​

you can't possibly know this. You are only guessing as greenbacks2 is.

how many here are privy to classified information?

How many thousands of other people working with actual classified information leaked any to the public? Why is that? Are they less-American for NOT doing the following as in post #7 ... which Snowden DID

which are .....

Telling a newspaper in China that the United States government spied on Chinese computers isn’t “revealing unconstitutional surveillance of Americans” and leaking that classified information is illegal.

Writing an “open letter” trying to get Brazil to grant him political asylum by offering to help Brazil investigate United States surveillance, because Snowden leaked information about the U.S. spying on the Brazilian government, isn’t “standing up for the Constitutional rights of Americans.”

Saying that the NSA is “in bed” with Germany and other governments, working together on elaborate surveillance programs, isn’t “protecting the freedom of American citizens.”

Leaking documents showing that Sweden has helped the United States spy on Russia isn’t “being a patriot.”

Producing documents that reveal details on how the NSA gets some of its intelligence on the location of dangerous terrorists isn’t “being a passionate supporter of our Bill of Rights.”

Revealing that the United States uses cyber-attacks as an “intelligence weapon” for overseas targets has nothing to do with our Constitution.

Neither did producing documents that showed the British government set up surveillance of G20 delegates and phones during the G20 summit in 2009.

Last I checked, countries in Latin America weren’t protected by our Constitution either – yet Snowden still leaked information about how the NSA listens in on phone calls in many of those nations.

Can’t say I see any connection to our Constitution in Snowden’s leak of documents pertaining to al-Qaeda’s efforts to shoot down or hack our drones.
I’ll admit that I’m not a Constitutional scholar, but I’m pretty sure French citizens aren’t protected by our Constitution.
Neither are Norwegians.

And I have no idea what Canada’s intelligence gathering has to do with American rights.

Though I’m fairly certain revealing that the NSA helped the Dutch spy on Somalia has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution.






What other name could you call him other than .... traitor? He belongs in prison.

 

[MikeB]

He does belong in prison. I hope he is equally as arrogant and dumb while in Russia and ends up in one of thier prisons.

 

[ML Dog]

Very well said scottcarter.

pockets wasn't exaggerating when he said you're sharp.

A matter inherently as complex as this, (as any matter involving the activities of a government as wealthy and with access to Technology as advanced as exists on our planet as The US Government would have) is unavoidably going to consist of situations like those that you describe....the spying on of Foreign Powers and the other stuff you've cited.

I base my opinion that the process which led to his spilling was as I describe based on reports from reliable sources. You're right that I cannot possibly "know" with total certainty however as Snowden himself is the only one who can have such certainty as to how what unfolded did.

You present articulate support of your position and a very welcome viewpoint to informed discussion (and most importantly education) on this matter.

Obviously, in time, Snowden's response to what you've posted is gonna have to be gained. Point by Point. Only he can say what motivation was behind what you cite.

I thank you for posting this and hopefully we'll be able to someday have a response from him on these things.

 

[pocketrockets]

He does belong in prison. I hope he is equally as arrogant and dumb while in Russia and ends up in one of thier prisons.

How is he arrogant? How is he more arrogant than you and others claiming to know his intentions and motivations were? Nothing more arrogant than being Jury, Judge, Executioner bud.

 

[pocketrockets]

Very well said scottcarter.

pockets wasn't exaggerating when he said you're sharp.

A matter inherently as complex as this, (as any matter involving the activities of a government as wealthy and with access to Technology as advanced as exists on our planet as The US Government would have) is unavoidably going to consist of situations like those that you describe....the spying on of Foreign Powers and the other stuff you've cited.

I base my opinion that the process which led to his spilling was as I describe based on reports from reliable sources. You're right that I cannot possibly "know" with total certainty however as Snowden himself is the only one who can have such certainty as to how what unfolded did.

You present articulate support of your position and a very welcome viewpoint to informed discussion (and most importantly education) on this matter.

Obviously, in time, Snowden's response to what you've posted is gonna have to be gained. Point by Point. Only he can say what motivation was behind what you cite.

I thank you for posting this and hopefully we'll be able to someday have a response from him on these things.

+1

scottcarter is a sharp cat, obviously not taking into consideration his known relationship with MikeB

 

[MikeB]

How is he arrogant? How is he more arrogant than you and others claiming to know his intentions and motivations were? Nothing more arrogant than being Jury, Judge, Executioner bud.

The difference is that if I were in Costa Rica and they entrusted me to do a job, I wouldn't be arrogant and give up thier Military secrets especially if it would put people's lives at risk. Those people who are in foreign countries have families and lives and are only doing thier jobs. I wouldn't tell Mexico (or whoever) that the CR had spies in this town or that embassy or wherever.

Whether I agree with thier foreign policy or not is irrelevant.