This is so way off I'm not even going to comment
This is so way off I'm not even going to comment
Industry standard is not bullshit.
good luck Harry!
http://www.pokeratlas.com/table-tal...ts-of-backing-arrangements-by-benton-blakeman
Ins and Outs of Backing Arrangements by AVP Pro Benton Blakeman
This week I would like to veer from talking about strategy and instead spend some time talking about staking deals and backing arrangements. I had a lot of people ask me lately how backing deals work so I thought I would write this weeks article about how it works.
When speaking of backing deals there are a few different kinds. The first is a standard backing deal where someone provides another player a bankroll to play on. This can be for cash games, tournaments, or a combination of both. Of course some deals include things like sports betting but for the sake of this article assume that all deals are for poker only. In this type of deal the backee (person being backed) holds the bankroll and plays games that the backer (person providing the bankroll and assuming the risk) okays them to play. This is more prevalent in a cash game backing deal than tournaments. Normally the backee and backer set a time or monetary mark to settle at. This is often times at the end of every month, three months, or when the bankroll reaches a certain number, often 25% or more on top of the original stake. For instance, if a player was given a $10k bankroll with parameters to settle at the end of the month, the backer and backee would meet and divide the profit above the $10k between them based on the percentages set forth at the beginning of the deal. These percentages normally range from 75/25 backer/backee split to 40/60 backer/backee split. The percentages usually correlate to the past history of the backee and their relationship with the backer. In general, I would say the most common split is 50/50. So, on the 50/50 model with settlement coming at months end, a backee who started with a $10k bankroll and now has $16k is entitled to $3k profit. The backer gets the other $3k and the bankroll resets at $10k to begin the next month. If the backee loses the next month and at settlement only has a $7k bankroll he doesnt owe the backer anything and still keeps his $3k he profited from the previous month. The catch is that the next $3k that he makes during the third month goes directly to the bankroll to replenish it back to $10k and only profits above and beyond the $10k bankroll will be split at months end. This $3k that goes back to the bankroll is called "make up." When in make up, a backee cannot leave his backer without permission or without paying off the make up figure. Some backers will settle on a lower payout to release a backee, like $0.75 on each dollar owed. If the backer decides to stop backing a player, then the player is free to seek backing from anyone else and is not required to pay make up to the first backer. If the player ever returns to the first backer they often still carry the make up figure, possibly with a reduction in it but not necessarily. Tournament only backing deals are similar to this with the exception of settling up. Backers and backees normally settle after each tournament, with losses adding to the make up amount and wins being subtracted from the make up amount. In the case of a big win that exceeds the make up amount the remaining sum would be split immediately between the backer and backee. After the split the backer and backee would be square, but as soon as the backee plays and busts another tournament they are back in make up. This is often the reason you will hear people say that tourney players are always in make up.
Another type of staking is buying and selling action. Selling action refers to a player who is partially putting up their own buy in but also selling a percentage of themselves to others to reduce variance and/or to play in a tournament that they normally couldnt afford. Most players who sell action sell it at a small "mark up." Mark up is nothing more than "juice" if you will. This mark up allows the player added overlay to help pay for the costs associated with the tournament including but not limited to hotels, airfare, meals, etc. Common mark up prices are between 10-30% often stated as 1.1:1 (10%), 1.2:1 (20%), and 1.3:1 (30%). It can also be anywhere in between, like 1.185:1 (18.5%). Mark up is often tied to players past performances and results, with better players being able to charge higher mark up. In general, mark up higher than 1.3:1 is very hard to make a long term profit for the buyer, so savvy buyers tend to shy away from purchasing action of players asking for unfair mark up. So, a player with decent results is looking to play in a $1k WSOP event. He is planning on putting up $400 of his own money and selling the rest of his action at 1.2:1. He sells in 5% blocks, meaning that 5% is $60 (5% of 1k is $50 plus the markup of 1.2 makes the number $60). While his $400 is only equal to 40% of the 1k buy in, selling 50% at 1.2:1 yields him $600 in investment money thus giving him $1k total for the buy in. Considering he only sold 50% of himself he is entitled to the other 50% for his $400, netting him a 10% free roll! The upsides to selling action are that you often get free roll equity because of mark up and you are never in make up. When people buy pieces its always a one time deal with no make up involved, as not only are investors putting up money but the player is using their own money as well. Each tourney is independent of each other and prize money is split after the end of the tournament. Often times players will use the term "standard deal" when talking about taxes. This means that buyers will receive a full share of the prize pool but will also receive a tax form stating the share of their winning, thus eliminating the responsibility of the player from the tax burden of the investors winnings. The downside to selling action is that inevitably cold streaks happen in tourneys and since the player is always buying some of their own action it can get expensive to run bad. Tourney buy ins add up so selling action is normally for players who have working bankrolls and can handle the swings. This is my preference when I play tourneys. It decreases my financial exposure and also balances the variance of tourneys. I often sell 10-30% of myself in 1ks-3ks and up to 50% in 5ks. Buying pieces of other players can be a fun thing as well if you are financially capable. Often the "sweat" of buying a piece of a good player is worth the price. While its not hugely profitable, finding the right price on a good player can yield profits for the buyers. I personally dont back players but I often buy pieces of players in bigger buy in individual events. I get a thrill out of reading their twitter updates and watching the tournament summaries online. I have been relatively fortunate in buying pieces as my "horses" have finished in the top 200 in the WSOP main event, won a 2k buy in at the Commerce, and finished third in a $20k buy in Epic Poker League event.
Now for the most common question that I get about this subject- How do I secure a backing deal for cash games or tournaments? In my opinion, the best way is to know someone who is currently backed and ask them to get you in contact with their backer or speak to their backer for you. If you dont know anyone who is backed you could always post in forums that allow such things that you are looking for backing. I would include what games I am looking to play, where, my plan of action, my past results, and most importantly why you are seeking backing. Backing is honestly a hard thing to come by in this poker economy. As far as selling pieces to tourneys, I would suggest asking your poker friends who also play events if they are interested in buying pieces. This is probably the most common way pieces are sold, and is often the easiest as paying and collecting is done right there before or after the event or with bank transfers from friends who buy your action.
As a warning, always be mindful of who you do business with when setting up a backing deal or buying/selling shares. Many people are too trusting and get burned by not collecting the money before an event. Dont fall prey to this scam. I would always collect unless I am good friends with the person, not just poker acquaintances with them.
I hope you found this article informative and that it cleared up any misconceptions and explained the differences, both good and bad, about backing, buying, and selling. Please leave any comments, questions, or stories relating to backing/buying/selling in the forum and lets discuss this topic.
http://www.pokeratlas.com/table-tal...ts-of-backing-arrangements-by-benton-blakeman
Ins and Outs of Backing Arrangements by AVP Pro Benton Blakeman
This week I would like to veer from talking about strategy and instead spend some time talking about staking deals and backing arrangements. I had a lot of people ask me lately how backing deals work so I thought I would write this weeks article about how it works.
When speaking of backing deals there are a few different kinds. The first is a standard backing deal where someone provides another player a bankroll to play on. This can be for cash games, tournaments, or a combination of both. Of course some deals include things like sports betting but for the sake of this article assume that all deals are for poker only. In this type of deal the backee (person being backed) holds the bankroll and plays games that the backer (person providing the bankroll and assuming the risk) okays them to play. This is more prevalent in a cash game backing deal than tournaments. Normally the backee and backer set a time or monetary mark to settle at. This is often times at the end of every month, three months, or when the bankroll reaches a certain number, often 25% or more on top of the original stake. For instance, if a player was given a $10k bankroll with parameters to settle at the end of the month, the backer and backee would meet and divide the profit above the $10k between them based on the percentages set forth at the beginning of the deal. These percentages normally range from 75/25 backer/backee split to 40/60 backer/backee split. The percentages usually correlate to the past history of the backee and their relationship with the backer. In general, I would say the most common split is 50/50. So, on the 50/50 model with settlement coming at months end, a backee who started with a $10k bankroll and now has $16k is entitled to $3k profit. The backer gets the other $3k and the bankroll resets at $10k to begin the next month. If the backee loses the next month and at settlement only has a $7k bankroll he doesnt owe the backer anything and still keeps his $3k he profited from the previous month. The catch is that the next $3k that he makes during the third month goes directly to the bankroll to replenish it back to $10k and only profits above and beyond the $10k bankroll will be split at months end. This $3k that goes back to the bankroll is called "make up." When in make up, a backee cannot leave his backer without permission or without paying off the make up figure. Some backers will settle on a lower payout to release a backee, like $0.75 on each dollar owed. If the backer decides to stop backing a player, then the player is free to seek backing from anyone else and is not required to pay make up to the first backer. If the player ever returns to the first backer they often still carry the make up figure, possibly with a reduction in it but not necessarily. Tournament only backing deals are similar to this with the exception of settling up. Backers and backees normally settle after each tournament, with losses adding to the make up amount and wins being subtracted from the make up amount. In the case of a big win that exceeds the make up amount the remaining sum would be split immediately between the backer and backee. After the split the backer and backee would be square, but as soon as the backee plays and busts another tournament they are back in make up. This is often the reason you will hear people say that tourney players are always in make up.
Another type of staking is buying and selling action. Selling action refers to a player who is partially putting up their own buy in but also selling a percentage of themselves to others to reduce variance and/or to play in a tournament that they normally couldnt afford. Most players who sell action sell it at a small "mark up." Mark up is nothing more than "juice" if you will. This mark up allows the player added overlay to help pay for the costs associated with the tournament including but not limited to hotels, airfare, meals, etc. Common mark up prices are between 10-30% often stated as 1.1:1 (10%), 1.2:1 (20%), and 1.3:1 (30%). It can also be anywhere in between, like 1.185:1 (18.5%). Mark up is often tied to players past performances and results, with better players being able to charge higher mark up. In general, mark up higher than 1.3:1 is very hard to make a long term profit for the buyer, so savvy buyers tend to shy away from purchasing action of players asking for unfair mark up. So, a player with decent results is looking to play in a $1k WSOP event. He is planning on putting up $400 of his own money and selling the rest of his action at 1.2:1. He sells in 5% blocks, meaning that 5% is $60 (5% of 1k is $50 plus the markup of 1.2 makes the number $60). While his $400 is only equal to 40% of the 1k buy in, selling 50% at 1.2:1 yields him $600 in investment money thus giving him $1k total for the buy in. Considering he only sold 50% of himself he is entitled to the other 50% for his $400, netting him a 10% free roll! The upsides to selling action are that you often get free roll equity because of mark up and you are never in make up. When people buy pieces its always a one time deal with no make up involved, as not only are investors putting up money but the player is using their own money as well. Each tourney is independent of each other and prize money is split after the end of the tournament. Often times players will use the term "standard deal" when talking about taxes. This means that buyers will receive a full share of the prize pool but will also receive a tax form stating the share of their winning, thus eliminating the responsibility of the player from the tax burden of the investors winnings. The downside to selling action is that inevitably cold streaks happen in tourneys and since the player is always buying some of their own action it can get expensive to run bad. Tourney buy ins add up so selling action is normally for players who have working bankrolls and can handle the swings. This is my preference when I play tourneys. It decreases my financial exposure and also balances the variance of tourneys. I often sell 10-30% of myself in 1ks-3ks and up to 50% in 5ks. Buying pieces of other players can be a fun thing as well if you are financially capable. Often the "sweat" of buying a piece of a good player is worth the price. While its not hugely profitable, finding the right price on a good player can yield profits for the buyers. I personally dont back players but I often buy pieces of players in bigger buy in individual events. I get a thrill out of reading their twitter updates and watching the tournament summaries online. I have been relatively fortunate in buying pieces as my "horses" have finished in the top 200 in the WSOP main event, won a 2k buy in at the Commerce, and finished third in a $20k buy in Epic Poker League event.
Now for the most common question that I get about this subject- How do I secure a backing deal for cash games or tournaments? In my opinion, the best way is to know someone who is currently backed and ask them to get you in contact with their backer or speak to their backer for you. If you dont know anyone who is backed you could always post in forums that allow such things that you are looking for backing. I would include what games I am looking to play, where, my plan of action, my past results, and most importantly why you are seeking backing. Backing is honestly a hard thing to come by in this poker economy. As far as selling pieces to tourneys, I would suggest asking your poker friends who also play events if they are interested in buying pieces. This is probably the most common way pieces are sold, and is often the easiest as paying and collecting is done right there before or after the event or with bank transfers from friends who buy your action.
As a warning, always be mindful of who you do business with when setting up a backing deal or buying/selling shares. Many people are too trusting and get burned by not collecting the money before an event. Dont fall prey to this scam. I would always collect unless I am good friends with the person, not just poker acquaintances with them.
I hope you found this article informative and that it cleared up any misconceptions and explained the differences, both good and bad, about backing, buying, and selling. Please leave any comments, questions, or stories relating to backing/buying/selling in the forum and lets discuss this topic.
hno:
Ok dude
Enjoy your $500 guaranteed tourneys
Trying to be helpful to you you just want to be an ass
I have played in WSOP events and won actual live tournaments multiple times.
It always pisses me off when the people get mad at others when they tell them what they need to hear and not what they want to hear,
Good luck.
Enjoy your $500 guaranteed tourneys
Trying to be helpful to you you just want to be an ass
I have played in WSOP events and won actual live tournaments multiple times.
It always pisses me off when the people get mad at others when they tell them what they need to hear and not what they want to hear,
Good luck.
And on the Saints I stand behind everything I said about them.
If one game meant everything your Fucking chicago bears would be the worst damm team in the NFL right now.
except for HC's personal equity part.
HC's personal equity is equal to $750 not $50 or whatever the satellite cost.
Hahahahaha I'm the one being an ass? I wasn't mad at you before but I am now.
"Enjoy your $500 guaranteed tourneys". Oh you are such a baller and I'm such a nobody. I wish I could be cool like you. What a dickhead comment for you to make.
Look I don't purport to know anything about how this works, I made that clear in the OP. All I said was "if the way you are explaining it is how it works, I think that's bullshit and it doesn't sound worth it to me."
You of course, are an expert on this matter, just like you are an expert on all matters. It gets old. And you are not trying to be helpful, I think that's pretty clear.
Not my fault you are a little riled up about yesterday, you must have taken an ass pounding.
I still can't get over what a cocksucker you are. So what if I play $500 guaranteeds? Does that make you some kind of authority and me some kind of idiot?
At least what I play, I consistently cash in. My little $500 gtd's won me a free trip to Panama, a tournament I know you wish you were playing in. So suck it you miserable fucking prick.
I did not throw the big baller card out there until after you threw out the "you're an idiot that does not know nothing about anything" card.
As is always the case with you, you always throw the first punch and always cry like a baby when I punch back.
I rarely instigate, but when someone comes at me I'm going to hit back.
As is always the case with you, you always throw the first punch and always cry like a baby when I punch back.
I rarely instigate, but when someone comes at me I'm going to hit back.
Harry throws the first insulting punch.
Chop punches back
Harry cries about chop punching back and calls him a cocksucker.
Chop punches back
Harry cries about chop punching back and calls him a cocksucker.
All I did was give an opinion on a question that the OP asked.
I gave the opinion.
When the opinion was not to the OP's liking he goes on to insult me for giving that opinion.
Then he goes on to belittle me by telling me I am clueless about what I'm talking about when in fact I have staked people in tourneys before and was thinking about staking him the entire $750 myself if he would have been willing to go along with industry standards.
If he did not want to go with industry standards thats fine.
But then he had to go the next step and basically call me an idiot that does not know what I'm talking about.
Its fine if you don't agree with industry standard.
You have the right to think that if you want.
But to call someone an idiot just because you think its not fair is bullshit.
I gave the opinion.
When the opinion was not to the OP's liking he goes on to insult me for giving that opinion.
Then he goes on to belittle me by telling me I am clueless about what I'm talking about when in fact I have staked people in tourneys before and was thinking about staking him the entire $750 myself if he would have been willing to go along with industry standards.
If he did not want to go with industry standards thats fine.
But then he had to go the next step and basically call me an idiot that does not know what I'm talking about.
Its fine if you don't agree with industry standard.
You have the right to think that if you want.
But to call someone an idiot just because you think its not fair is bullshit.
