Except you're missing the most basic and salient point being made.
I (and everyone else in here) couldn't care less if people want to eat vegan/vegetarian, my own diet is not dissimilar. My problem is Shub coming in here and saying that people are: ignorant, unethical, immoral... for eating meat - and giving false information and really stupid argumentation in order to try to make his points.
You know I'm right.
it is his opinion that people are immoral for eating meat. It does not make him wrong or right...it's something he cares about and chooses to voice said opinion. I think a lot of what he says is correct but I just fail to see what he thinks he will gain by starting this thread on a gambling forum.
fairly obvious he isn't swaying any of you to research the US food system on your own
I don't know Shub at all but my guess is his Veganism is something fairly new. When i started on my own Vegan path back in the day (1990) I couldn't wait to throw my opinion around as I truly thought I had this all figured out. Several years into it (1993+) I had pretty much figured out that voicing my interpretation of the truth was a waste of time.
So I'm fairly certain Shub isn't on even year #3 or #4 of his Vegan lifestyle...could be totally wrong but i have lived this already so I know that at some point he will stop caring about what other people do or think and will stop defending his moral high ground.
I think his heart's in the right place but he's lacking a lot of information and experience on the subject as most people that are new to a lifestyle change typically are.
just like the people that stop smoking...they are the fucking worst when it comes to bitching about public smoking areas. It was fine for them for a few decades when it fit their lifestyle but now it's a moral obligation to parade against it.
Why does he have to sway any of us to research the US Food System on our own? Counting on them is the first downfall. So now all non vegans are uneducated on the subject, because if they were, they'd be vegans for sure?
of course not "for sure" but the more you understand about it the liklier you are to not eat meat. My educated guess is that vegans have much better knowledge of the US Food System than non-vegans. Much like heavy sports bettors have a better idea of how odds are created than someone who has never placed a sports bet in their life. Gay men probably have a lot more knowledge of gay fashion than you or I. Simply the more you are personally invested in a subject the more you learn about it and the more educated you become. That doesn't mean a sector of meat eaters aren't knowledgeable about the US Food System but I would argue a much higher percentage of vegans have taken the time to learn about this sector than your average American carnivore.
not sure what you mean by "counting on them is the first downfall"? counting on who to fall where? Unless you aren't catching my drift i don't care what anyone does so I'm not asking for a systematic downfall for anything.
That's a fair enough rebuttal.
The only thing I've yet to understand is the comment (By Shub, not yourself) that "half of you have dogs dogs", meaning us carnivores I suppose. Being highly involved in animal rescue, I come into contact with a lot of vegans (most "crazy cat ladies" seem to be), however, I've yet to meet one that didn't feed their cat or dog meat, some even a raw diet, so I don't get the correlation that a natural carnivore owns another natural carnivore as a pet...
no clue. i love dogs...mine sadly passed away last April but she was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me and I miss her coming to work with me every freaking day.
don't see the correlation between eating meat and having a dog. I had a dog when i ate meat, I had one when i didn't eat meat. Having a dog, or a cat for that matter, doesn't produce some internal struggle to keep from throwing them in the oven.
no idea
i'll chime with my two-cents
firstly, isn't amazing that a diet discussion can become so heated? It's not like you guys were talking about religion, .............or were you? Both are largely belief- based and beliefs are powerful. They sometimes shun us, and we're no longer open to new thoughts/questions pertaining to. Quickly doing google searches for articles that support our beliefs, re-inforce them. .
As rolltide mentioned, there's value in keeping an open mind. Science moves forward BY ASKING questions. Don't be afraid to question public opinion, ESPECIALLY if you suffer from chronic disease (auto-immune/obesity/diabetes/hypertension..) and are searching for answers, rather than just leaving solutions to big pharma. When it comes to diet/food choices, there are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak. The body can adapt. Disease expression is multi-factorial with genetic/diet/mental/environmental factors all playing roles. Gross generalizations can be VERY dangerous, can have inadvertant disastrous results. We have witnessed this. USA's decision, in the 1970's, to call out 'dietary fat ' as the bad guy in health lit a flame-- spawned a massive growth in obesity and chronic disease. That eating fat makes you fat. Keep in mind, this was a decision made by a govt HEALTH AGENCY. Scary, eh? Fortunately, there were folks who DID question existing dogma. Food pyramid/guidelines have since changed.
again, we are all unique. Gene expression is unique. As an example---Some folks cant tolerate gluten, while others can. In some people, gluten (a protein product found in wheat) can result in SIGNIFICANT disease expression.It's now understood that the body sees the gluten as a foreign threat and as such fires a defense againt it-- this is called 'auto-immune' disesase (celiac disease). Remove the antigen , gluten , from their diet and these people are healthy again, symptoms subside. Isn't that amazing?
with that said, is it fair to say gluten is bad for everyone ? Is their data to support that?
Shub, i'm curious . you certainly dont have to share publically or respond for that matter. My curiosity is for your well-being, sir. You can send me a PM if you'd prefer. Are you seeing any changes in well-being and lab numbers since going vegan. A1c levels easier to manage? med dosages changed for the better or still the same? Is your vegan diet low-glycemic?
if no improvement in numbers, have you read/considered a ketogenic diet in managing your diabetes? Change primary fuels from glucose to fatty acids . Just a thought.
wish you well
firstly, isn't amazing that a diet discussion can become so heated? It's not like you guys were talking about religion, .............or were you? Both are largely belief- based and beliefs are powerful. They sometimes shun us, and we're no longer open to new thoughts/questions pertaining to. Quickly doing google searches for articles that support our beliefs, re-inforce them. .
As rolltide mentioned, there's value in keeping an open mind. Science moves forward BY ASKING questions. Don't be afraid to question public opinion, ESPECIALLY if you suffer from chronic disease (auto-immune/obesity/diabetes/hypertension..) and are searching for answers, rather than just leaving solutions to big pharma. When it comes to diet/food choices, there are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak. The body can adapt. Disease expression is multi-factorial with genetic/diet/mental/environmental factors all playing roles. Gross generalizations can be VERY dangerous, can have inadvertant disastrous results. We have witnessed this. USA's decision, in the 1970's, to call out 'dietary fat ' as the bad guy in health lit a flame-- spawned a massive growth in obesity and chronic disease. That eating fat makes you fat. Keep in mind, this was a decision made by a govt HEALTH AGENCY. Scary, eh? Fortunately, there were folks who DID question existing dogma. Food pyramid/guidelines have since changed.
again, we are all unique. Gene expression is unique. As an example---Some folks cant tolerate gluten, while others can. In some people, gluten (a protein product found in wheat) can result in SIGNIFICANT disease expression.It's now understood that the body sees the gluten as a foreign threat and as such fires a defense againt it-- this is called 'auto-immune' disesase (celiac disease). Remove the antigen , gluten , from their diet and these people are healthy again, symptoms subside. Isn't that amazing?
with that said, is it fair to say gluten is bad for everyone ? Is their data to support that?
Shub, i'm curious . you certainly dont have to share publically or respond for that matter. My curiosity is for your well-being, sir. You can send me a PM if you'd prefer. Are you seeing any changes in well-being and lab numbers since going vegan. A1c levels easier to manage? med dosages changed for the better or still the same? Is your vegan diet low-glycemic?
if no improvement in numbers, have you read/considered a ketogenic diet in managing your diabetes? Change primary fuels from glucose to fatty acids . Just a thought.
wish you well
A very small % of people have celiac disease. Gluten free is a fad imo. I am more worried about the natural flavors that are in just about everything we eat. I googled what they were and was horrified. In a perfect world we would be able to grow our own organic food and not eat processed foods at all.
I remain unconvinced that a vegan diet is any better(long term) than even a low-end Standard American Diet of industrial processing. I have them about par, though I think a short term vegan experiment could be very cleansing. It seems that a big part of the Vegan argument is based upon animal treatment. That's valid and the system needs to be better. I just think abandoning any kind of animal products because of that is like pulling your kid from school because you don't like common core. It's when the Vegans start showing "facts" that the diet is more optimal that I get off that short bus. And in my experience most of those zealots are newbies that are feeling the high from cleansing and the body using it's fat stores (the perfect food source by the way) as supplementation. By year two, I think that's when the little issues start popping up.
It's not a fad . And it's irrelevant that only a tiny % of people are diagnosed with it . Good thing you're not in healthcare . The point is the afflicted are insensitive to gluten and their quality of life dramatically improves once the antigen is removed from their diet .they don't have to rely on big pharma indefinitely
it does not mean that YOU cannot tolerate gluten /gluten insensitive .
it does not mean that YOU cannot tolerate gluten /gluten insensitive .
