Jim-
The first long post "you" wrote in Areef's original thread sounded like an ad for Casablanca. Recommending that Casablanca pay and saying "There is no way that this is worth the bad publicity you're getting." looks like an olive branch to save face.
Jim, could you be a customer that is close enough to the inside to get direction/hints/help in writing your posts? If Dave Johnson assisted you in making your posts and gave you inside info, that would not make Shrink wrong in painting you as a shill. Dave has gotten good over the years at masking his shills.
As for Beenthere, his timing on this and the strength of his support for BetCBS are plenty suspicious. Suspicion is not proof, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
As for BetCBS being a stiff book, they have had a pretty good record with the players which I have defended. I think this incident is a stiff and the explanation offered by Dave Johnson was weak.
Furthermore, I will go so far as to disagree with JJGold that they don't have the funds/cashflow to pay their postup players. They might stiff rather than pay, but they most certainly CAN pay. They are NOT insolvent. JJ is 100% wrong on this score.
The first long post "you" wrote in Areef's original thread sounded like an ad for Casablanca. Recommending that Casablanca pay and saying "There is no way that this is worth the bad publicity you're getting." looks like an olive branch to save face.
Jim, could you be a customer that is close enough to the inside to get direction/hints/help in writing your posts? If Dave Johnson assisted you in making your posts and gave you inside info, that would not make Shrink wrong in painting you as a shill. Dave has gotten good over the years at masking his shills.
As for Beenthere, his timing on this and the strength of his support for BetCBS are plenty suspicious. Suspicion is not proof, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
As for BetCBS being a stiff book, they have had a pretty good record with the players which I have defended. I think this incident is a stiff and the explanation offered by Dave Johnson was weak.
Furthermore, I will go so far as to disagree with JJGold that they don't have the funds/cashflow to pay their postup players. They might stiff rather than pay, but they most certainly CAN pay. They are NOT insolvent. JJ is 100% wrong on this score.
Guys
I promised not to come back in but I have to break my promise.
Neither of these gentlemen are shills. I know Jim Ross from emails regarding this matter and that's it. He questioned me about Java and I explained Java was my previous software provider so his opinion may be somewhat biased.
Yes, I did ask Java to open a prescription account/handle years ago. Yes, I asked him to defend the software whenever possible. Is that so bad? I mean I did pay him in full to develop the program which I thought I owned. He might as well defend it when it was being bashed.
I did not ask Jim Ross to come to our defense. I did not ask anyone. I really didnt have time to do anything with this situation because I was on vacation. I made one quick post the other day because I felt we werent getting an entirely fair shake. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in the situation.
I didnt just make my decision on a whim in a fit of rage. I consulted with many books even some who advertise here at the Prescription. Many said to me "you book it you pay it" but many also said " dont pay him because he knew the line was wrong and he took advantage"
Personally, I was willing to speak to the gentlemen and discus the situation. You are welcome to check with Areef that I personally placed a call to him this morning at his hotel in Jamaica asking him to call me back. I did not say I was going to pay him but I felt it was in the best interest to discuss and work out something. Discussion never hurts.
Ken
If you have a personal problem or vendetta against me then you should call me. I sent you a nice email before I left last Monday explaining my side of the story. You have known me for a long time. Sure we have had many differences but you know Im not the person some of these guys are making me out to be. Besides, you have a few skeletons in your closet as well. However, I dont throw them all over a public forum.
I believe that there has to be honor and integrity from both sides of the counter. Everyone is always screaming about bookmakers not having integrity. Well, it works both ways guys.
Every reader of the Prescription who has ever played at betCBS has been treated with respect and has ALWAYS been paid. Even the guys this week who continue to withdrawl have and will continue to get paid the same day seven days a week. I have received emails this week from players telling me they were happy with my decision and other emails saying they were very disappointed. The disappointed players begged me to try to compromise. For those players I was willing to talk with Areef.
I run a good business that has had alot of adversity the last few months.
Some books fail in the face of adversity but betCBS will come out stronger in the end.
I will wait to talk with Areef this evening if he calls. I wont promise anything but maybe something will be resolved. I do not advertise here because the forum is often one sided. However, I am a frequent visitor because this forum does have some great things to offer.
Ken, you had two posters you just accused of being shills with no proof. Check the IPs. My IP is in my office.
Instead of attacking me Ken why not call me like I asked and well talk. My phone is open and I have extended numerous offers for you to visit my office in the past and in the future.
I cannot comment on Java. All I can say is that he appeared out of thin air when my software was down to bash my operation. Fine.
Nobody hears from him for weeks and then magically he appears again. Fine.
I dont have to spell it out. The informed posters know the situation.
Ken
I am here all night.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Dave Johnson
betCBS.com
I promised not to come back in but I have to break my promise.
Neither of these gentlemen are shills. I know Jim Ross from emails regarding this matter and that's it. He questioned me about Java and I explained Java was my previous software provider so his opinion may be somewhat biased.
Yes, I did ask Java to open a prescription account/handle years ago. Yes, I asked him to defend the software whenever possible. Is that so bad? I mean I did pay him in full to develop the program which I thought I owned. He might as well defend it when it was being bashed.
I did not ask Jim Ross to come to our defense. I did not ask anyone. I really didnt have time to do anything with this situation because I was on vacation. I made one quick post the other day because I felt we werent getting an entirely fair shake. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in the situation.
I didnt just make my decision on a whim in a fit of rage. I consulted with many books even some who advertise here at the Prescription. Many said to me "you book it you pay it" but many also said " dont pay him because he knew the line was wrong and he took advantage"
Personally, I was willing to speak to the gentlemen and discus the situation. You are welcome to check with Areef that I personally placed a call to him this morning at his hotel in Jamaica asking him to call me back. I did not say I was going to pay him but I felt it was in the best interest to discuss and work out something. Discussion never hurts.
Ken
If you have a personal problem or vendetta against me then you should call me. I sent you a nice email before I left last Monday explaining my side of the story. You have known me for a long time. Sure we have had many differences but you know Im not the person some of these guys are making me out to be. Besides, you have a few skeletons in your closet as well. However, I dont throw them all over a public forum.
I believe that there has to be honor and integrity from both sides of the counter. Everyone is always screaming about bookmakers not having integrity. Well, it works both ways guys.
Every reader of the Prescription who has ever played at betCBS has been treated with respect and has ALWAYS been paid. Even the guys this week who continue to withdrawl have and will continue to get paid the same day seven days a week. I have received emails this week from players telling me they were happy with my decision and other emails saying they were very disappointed. The disappointed players begged me to try to compromise. For those players I was willing to talk with Areef.
I run a good business that has had alot of adversity the last few months.
Some books fail in the face of adversity but betCBS will come out stronger in the end.
I will wait to talk with Areef this evening if he calls. I wont promise anything but maybe something will be resolved. I do not advertise here because the forum is often one sided. However, I am a frequent visitor because this forum does have some great things to offer.
Ken, you had two posters you just accused of being shills with no proof. Check the IPs. My IP is in my office.
Instead of attacking me Ken why not call me like I asked and well talk. My phone is open and I have extended numerous offers for you to visit my office in the past and in the future.
I cannot comment on Java. All I can say is that he appeared out of thin air when my software was down to bash my operation. Fine.
Nobody hears from him for weeks and then magically he appears again. Fine.
I dont have to spell it out. The informed posters know the situation.
Ken
I am here all night.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Dave Johnson
betCBS.com
As an added note I would love to see a poll of all players and bookmakers created to see what they feel is good criteria for judging a good-bad line.
I think one of the big problems is that some people disagreed that the moneyline which was 250 points off was not wrong. However, if it was a pointspread that was 4 points off would posters have thought the same thing?
If anyone has opinions (including bookmakers) of what they feel are the criteria for bad lines a poll would be good or an email to me at betCBS.com
When this is resolved I will post more exactly on my website what is a good-bad line.
Dave
I think one of the big problems is that some people disagreed that the moneyline which was 250 points off was not wrong. However, if it was a pointspread that was 4 points off would posters have thought the same thing?
If anyone has opinions (including bookmakers) of what they feel are the criteria for bad lines a poll would be good or an email to me at betCBS.com
When this is resolved I will post more exactly on my website what is a good-bad line.
Dave
Guys-
Just to show I can be a bit fair to CBS, since this SBA situtation keeps coming up...
This winter I read the thread about the SBA poster that got stiffed. (I found this from my own lurking, and had not discussed it with Casablanca and had been unaware of it.)
This was a month or two after Casablanca had begun hosting SBA. The poster in question was complaining about wagers made in the August/Sept time frame. BetCBS had not yet begun processing wagers for SBA, so the poster's complaint was based upon events prior to SBA's association with CBS. Therefore, I was unable to come forward and support the poster's claims. Had I been able to find evidence of a stiff, I would have pressured Casablanca to do the right thing.
Now, I do NOT know the details of the business arrangement between SBA and CBS as to which players CBS was responsible for or if SBA was forthright in its disclosures.
Do I think that Dave Johnson spun the situation a bit? Probably. Is CBS entirely or mostly to blame? Probably not. I think SBA was at fault and Casablanca took some undeserved heat. Did they suspect the problems and hope to grab some players? Maybe.
I bring this up to show that I am not going to trash BetCBS just to trash them. If I am suspicious of their motives or suspect a shill, I will point it out.
The Areeff situation is completely different from SBA and it is unfair to connect the two in this forum.
Just to show I can be a bit fair to CBS, since this SBA situtation keeps coming up...
This winter I read the thread about the SBA poster that got stiffed. (I found this from my own lurking, and had not discussed it with Casablanca and had been unaware of it.)
This was a month or two after Casablanca had begun hosting SBA. The poster in question was complaining about wagers made in the August/Sept time frame. BetCBS had not yet begun processing wagers for SBA, so the poster's complaint was based upon events prior to SBA's association with CBS. Therefore, I was unable to come forward and support the poster's claims. Had I been able to find evidence of a stiff, I would have pressured Casablanca to do the right thing.
Now, I do NOT know the details of the business arrangement between SBA and CBS as to which players CBS was responsible for or if SBA was forthright in its disclosures.
Do I think that Dave Johnson spun the situation a bit? Probably. Is CBS entirely or mostly to blame? Probably not. I think SBA was at fault and Casablanca took some undeserved heat. Did they suspect the problems and hope to grab some players? Maybe.
I bring this up to show that I am not going to trash BetCBS just to trash them. If I am suspicious of their motives or suspect a shill, I will point it out.
The Areeff situation is completely different from SBA and it is unfair to connect the two in this forum.
Dave,
It seems that the rush to judgement precludes anyone having a contrarian opinion without being labeled a shill. Clearly your linesman should be taken to the woodshed for not picking up the mistake and cancelling the bets before the match started.
I work hard trying to find soft lines but will not bet into a line that I feel is a mistake without first calling and asking the linesman to check his number.
JJGOLD should post his real name and address like a man rather than hide behind his hairpiece. He has said many things that he should be held accountable. But, the chickenshit wimp will hide and act like he is a bad ass.
Shrink has been shameless in this thread. You must have not given him a free shot with BW's plays on a generous credit line. While many things he does are very good. He too should be taken to the woodshed when he takes a book or allows a book to be taken to task about an issue which is a grey as this one. Shrink, be a man and get off your high horse.
Care to call me a shill again?
It seems that the rush to judgement precludes anyone having a contrarian opinion without being labeled a shill. Clearly your linesman should be taken to the woodshed for not picking up the mistake and cancelling the bets before the match started.
I work hard trying to find soft lines but will not bet into a line that I feel is a mistake without first calling and asking the linesman to check his number.
JJGOLD should post his real name and address like a man rather than hide behind his hairpiece. He has said many things that he should be held accountable. But, the chickenshit wimp will hide and act like he is a bad ass.
Shrink has been shameless in this thread. You must have not given him a free shot with BW's plays on a generous credit line. While many things he does are very good. He too should be taken to the woodshed when he takes a book or allows a book to be taken to task about an issue which is a grey as this one. Shrink, be a man and get off your high horse.
Care to call me a shill again?
Java or Javas brother
The SBA situation was discussed in the forums. We did not buy SBA. We did not own SBA. We attempted to help and they went out of business.
Would I be so willing to help the next book going out of business? Probably not. However, I feel we did our best to provide them with the most inexpensive place to operate. The SBA debacle was the result of bad management. Its very expensive to service players offshore and their expenses ran out of control.
I dont spin and I dont shill. Im not afraid of adversity and I will be the first one to admit that I make mistakes.
That is why I was willing to talk with Areef. Do I think I made a mistake in how it was handled? Not really but I am willing to discuss it with the gentlemen.
However, if you think that JJGOLD (aka 'the sky is falling') is going to force me into a bad business decision your wrong.
Posters emailed me this week. Many were regulars at the other two sites. Many said they agreed with the decision. They were happy that every player who bet the bad line except for the 4 players in question were paid in full.
In fact many said they would not have paid Areef anything.
Its easy to throw stones especially when you have a seperate agenda.
Also, in the future in your business dealing try not to get personal. I have never addressed you in the manner I have been addressed. Your an adult who didnt have a business deal go his way. You dont like me. Fine. You dont respect me. Fine. I feel the same way about you but you'll never see me make it personal.
Dave
The SBA situation was discussed in the forums. We did not buy SBA. We did not own SBA. We attempted to help and they went out of business.
Would I be so willing to help the next book going out of business? Probably not. However, I feel we did our best to provide them with the most inexpensive place to operate. The SBA debacle was the result of bad management. Its very expensive to service players offshore and their expenses ran out of control.
I dont spin and I dont shill. Im not afraid of adversity and I will be the first one to admit that I make mistakes.
That is why I was willing to talk with Areef. Do I think I made a mistake in how it was handled? Not really but I am willing to discuss it with the gentlemen.
However, if you think that JJGOLD (aka 'the sky is falling') is going to force me into a bad business decision your wrong.
Posters emailed me this week. Many were regulars at the other two sites. Many said they agreed with the decision. They were happy that every player who bet the bad line except for the 4 players in question were paid in full.
In fact many said they would not have paid Areef anything.
Its easy to throw stones especially when you have a seperate agenda.
Also, in the future in your business dealing try not to get personal. I have never addressed you in the manner I have been addressed. Your an adult who didnt have a business deal go his way. You dont like me. Fine. You dont respect me. Fine. I feel the same way about you but you'll never see me make it personal.
Dave
JAVA
I'm my own man. A player for a long time at CBS. Hardly a shill but a person with a leaning to CBS because they've been fair to me for a long time in all the basics that one could expect from a book.. I posted that they should pay these people fairly. In every related post I said "do the right thing dave and settle with this guy". I don't like to see them being blemished although its not somethng thats ever happend before as far as I can see. I'm entitled to have an opinion here as long as I post civily. My steadfast opinion has been "CBS has always been a book I've had a excellent overall experience with" and "Dave Johnson please pay the man".. Most of your posts included personal jabs at Dave and CBS that went beyond the casual poster. You had a posting passion that rose to a much higher and personal pitch than the average poster. Even higher than JJ.
Am I automatically a shill because I am a very happy customer who rates Casablana as top shelf in my list of outs?? Thats a pretty ridiculous assertion.
I'm my own man. A player for a long time at CBS. Hardly a shill but a person with a leaning to CBS because they've been fair to me for a long time in all the basics that one could expect from a book.. I posted that they should pay these people fairly. In every related post I said "do the right thing dave and settle with this guy". I don't like to see them being blemished although its not somethng thats ever happend before as far as I can see. I'm entitled to have an opinion here as long as I post civily. My steadfast opinion has been "CBS has always been a book I've had a excellent overall experience with" and "Dave Johnson please pay the man".. Most of your posts included personal jabs at Dave and CBS that went beyond the casual poster. You had a posting passion that rose to a much higher and personal pitch than the average poster. Even higher than JJ.
Am I automatically a shill because I am a very happy customer who rates Casablana as top shelf in my list of outs?? Thats a pretty ridiculous assertion.
Dave-
I accept your admission that you pointed out to Jim Ross about my past association. (That was the point that Jim was acting on inside info, which was the basis of Shrink's accussation.)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dave Wrote: I cannot comment on Java. All I can say is that he appeared out of thin air when my software was down to bash my operation. Fine.
Nobody hears from him for weeks and then magically he appears again. Fine.
I dont have to spell it out. The informed posters know the situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Sure sounds like a comment to me.
2) Hardly out of thin air if was on the thread about the software switch, and a topic which I would need to be on to defend the old software.
3) Check my posts, I've been posting all through May and June on non-BetCBS topics. Nothing magic about me.
4) I'm the one that taught you to use alternate IP's, so making an IP challenge is just smoke since you already covered yourself. However, you didn't hesitate to deny Areeff payment because there were two bets with IP's from the same state.
Dave, you can spin and spin all you want. Just do the right thing and pay the guy. Don't make it about me, Shrink or any other poster that knows how you do business.
I accept your admission that you pointed out to Jim Ross about my past association. (That was the point that Jim was acting on inside info, which was the basis of Shrink's accussation.)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dave Wrote: I cannot comment on Java. All I can say is that he appeared out of thin air when my software was down to bash my operation. Fine.
Nobody hears from him for weeks and then magically he appears again. Fine.
I dont have to spell it out. The informed posters know the situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Sure sounds like a comment to me.
2) Hardly out of thin air if was on the thread about the software switch, and a topic which I would need to be on to defend the old software.
3) Check my posts, I've been posting all through May and June on non-BetCBS topics. Nothing magic about me.
4) I'm the one that taught you to use alternate IP's, so making an IP challenge is just smoke since you already covered yourself. However, you didn't hesitate to deny Areeff payment because there were two bets with IP's from the same state.
Dave, you can spin and spin all you want. Just do the right thing and pay the guy. Don't make it about me, Shrink or any other poster that knows how you do business.
Java
Thanks for the response. Not interested in a pissing match. My only point is dont make it personal.
Your a talented programmer who I respected and depended on for a long time. Ill leave it at that.
Your welcome to your opinion on the Areef matter. But like I said keep it to Areef and not your personal feeling towards me.
You assume alot to speak for the Shrink. I dont have any problems with Ken. He may disagree with how I handled this situation and that is his right. All I wanted to do was make sure that the two posters questioned were not pinned as shills.
I was fine staying out of the whole arguement. I was fine speaking and working with Areef in private. Somehow this became a "lynch Dave" site in the last couple days.
I will wait and speak with Areef. I have said my peace.
Dave
Thanks for the response. Not interested in a pissing match. My only point is dont make it personal.
Your a talented programmer who I respected and depended on for a long time. Ill leave it at that.
Your welcome to your opinion on the Areef matter. But like I said keep it to Areef and not your personal feeling towards me.
You assume alot to speak for the Shrink. I dont have any problems with Ken. He may disagree with how I handled this situation and that is his right. All I wanted to do was make sure that the two posters questioned were not pinned as shills.
I was fine staying out of the whole arguement. I was fine speaking and working with Areef in private. Somehow this became a "lynch Dave" site in the last couple days.
I will wait and speak with Areef. I have said my peace.
Dave
Jim-
Sorry to cast aspersions on you, but the inside info and the snide way you said it, had CBS written all over it. Like a signature.
As for hitting Casablanca hard (it wasn't as hard as JJ), I've known them for a long time and I disagree this how they handle it. I have no qualms about exposing what I suspect to be spin or misrepresentation by Dave Johnson. I'm hardly the first person that has crossed-swords with him and seen how he operates. He once SCREAMED at me that he was the Emperor of Casablanca and could do whatever he wanted.
I think his explanation to Areeff was his typical spin to avoid paying. I still hope he does the right thing.
Sorry to cast aspersions on you, but the inside info and the snide way you said it, had CBS written all over it. Like a signature.
As for hitting Casablanca hard (it wasn't as hard as JJ), I've known them for a long time and I disagree this how they handle it. I have no qualms about exposing what I suspect to be spin or misrepresentation by Dave Johnson. I'm hardly the first person that has crossed-swords with him and seen how he operates. He once SCREAMED at me that he was the Emperor of Casablanca and could do whatever he wanted.
I think his explanation to Areeff was his typical spin to avoid paying. I still hope he does the right thing.
Dave-
That was a civil post. It came while I was writing my post to Jim Ross, so please forgive any uncivility you may find implied.
I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, as that will drag an important topic regarding payment of a player further into the mud.
Also, thank you for the compliment about my programming skills. I posted the objection to the SBA topic being introduced. I wasn't attempting to piss on you about SBA, but I also did not want to convey that I was 100% behind your story either. Sorry if that came out badly. I was trying to indicate that I thought the truth was somewhere in the middle and not taking a side.
I took a shot at JJ's claims that you couldn't pay and stated clearly that you DO have the funds to pay. I've found JJ to be very entertaining, so I haven't broken his balls about being overboard.
I really do hope you settle this with Areeff. I hope that you will always pay what you owe.
That was a civil post. It came while I was writing my post to Jim Ross, so please forgive any uncivility you may find implied.
I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, as that will drag an important topic regarding payment of a player further into the mud.
Also, thank you for the compliment about my programming skills. I posted the objection to the SBA topic being introduced. I wasn't attempting to piss on you about SBA, but I also did not want to convey that I was 100% behind your story either. Sorry if that came out badly. I was trying to indicate that I thought the truth was somewhere in the middle and not taking a side.
I took a shot at JJ's claims that you couldn't pay and stated clearly that you DO have the funds to pay. I've found JJ to be very entertaining, so I haven't broken his balls about being overboard.
I really do hope you settle this with Areeff. I hope that you will always pay what you owe.
Java
you say :
>> "He (DAVE) once SCREAMED at me that he was the Emperor of Casablanca and could do whatever he wanted."<<
I hear where your coming from JAVA....
Hell...my wife once screamed at me she was the Queen of the House and told me to get my ass out..... and she meant it!
Bosses sometimes pull that crap!!
you say :
>> "He (DAVE) once SCREAMED at me that he was the Emperor of Casablanca and could do whatever he wanted."<<
I hear where your coming from JAVA....
Hell...my wife once screamed at me she was the Queen of the House and told me to get my ass out..... and she meant it!
Bosses sometimes pull that crap!!
