The Truth about Lebron, the Cavs and....

[pats3peat]

The reality is that at this point, LeBron's nothing incredibly special. The only thing that you can truly make a case for in that he's "special" is his freakish athleticism.

I don't even think he's worthy enough (at least yet) to be compared to Jordan, Bird, Magic.

I stopped making comparisons of him to Jordan, b/c I realized that they are indeed different types of players. But what separates Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc from Lebron is that those guys were incredibly good/almost unstoppable at what they do, i.e., their specialties.

Jordan had the post-up fade-aways late in his career, Bird could penetrate or had the jumpshots down, Magic was one of the greatest passers ever.

But exactly what is LeBron's specialty? His well-built frame does allow him to drive to the basket more often than not, but you can't even call that his specialty b/c he doesn't "dominate" in that area as of now. And he definitely ain't no jump shooter.

So get off his cock. As for me, I take LeBron for what he is right now. He's young, he's got talent, he can do amazing slam dunks, that's about it.

:thumbsup:

 

[prodigy]

im dead serious when i say that 'great' is too generic of an adjective when it comes to describing this kids floor vision and passing. he has hall of fame type vision.

so many people try to quantify someone's passing ability and simply go on assists alone. and his numbers are above average in that department and, ostensibly, nothing out of the ordinary.

but if you were to sit in the sections behind the baskets and watch the game from that vantage point (as opposed to the side-to-side television broadcast), you would be amazed at how many times he is able to thread the needle or force the defense to rotate one way before he whips a pass the opposite way for a clean look for a teammate. television broadcasts really dont do it justice. everything in the halfcourt looks 'ordinary' on television. but his passing is anything but ordinary. he absolutely has magic-esque floor vision.

as skins said, however, his jumper is very mediocre right now. hes far more of a scorer than a shooter. he unnecessarily fades away or is off balance on way too many shots and isnt a true 3-pt threat even though he has games where he can get hot and knock 3,4, or 5 down. but he has a lot of work to do with him shot. i think this series is good for him. hes been far superior his entire life to the competition so he never really had to worry about mechanics or anything like that. now he has to take one more step to reach truly elite status. he has gone from star to superstar. but he still has one more step/improvement to make before he can be considered one of the greats. the good news is hes 22 and only going to get better. his game is not flawless by any stretch. he is still a poor defender (though mike brown has made him better) and his shot needs work. gibson is the purest shooter on the team right now and those two are very tight so id expect him to improve in that area in the offseason.

it will be interesting to see how the cavs try to improve in the offseason. they are kind of cash strapped because of big contracts to ilgauskas, james, and ESPECIALLY hughes. so a big acquistion isnt likely. and they dont have a first round draft pick either. the cavs will be perennial eastern finals participants for quite awhile. but its clear they need one more piece and lebron needs to take one more step in order to get a championship.

 

[TomBrady#1]

The reality is that at this point, LeBron's nothing incredibly special. The only thing that you can truly make a case for in that he's "special" is his freakish athleticism.

I don't even think he's worthy enough (at least yet) to be compared to Jordan, Bird, Magic.

I stopped making comparisons of him to Jordan, b/c I realized that they are indeed different types of players. But what separates Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc from Lebron is that those guys were incredibly good/almost unstoppable at what they do, i.e., their specialties.

Jordan had the post-up fade-aways late in his career, Bird could penetrate or had the jumpshots down, Magic was one of the greatest passers ever.

But exactly what is LeBron's specialty? His well-built frame does allow him to drive to the basket more often than not, but you can't even call that his specialty b/c he doesn't "dominate" in that area as of now. And he definitely ain't no jump shooter.

So get off his cock. As for me, I take LeBron for what he is right now. He's young, he's got talent, he can do amazing slam dunks, that's about it.

You must compare him at his age. Koby at 22 was a joke! Jordan was not close to JORDAN at 22. As far as athletecism being all he got well what do you think Koby and Jordan had? Those lean 6"6,6"7 inch frames that make them get their shots off most of the time even while guarded, stop on a dime, and drive to the hoop like very few have is all god blessed athletic ability. Oh they practice hard but they are more physically gifted and so is James. His vision is superb for his position and so is his passing....he will be a top 10 scorer for sure consistently. His J will get much better and you see him driving now at will. Wait until he shoots better then that will make his offense that much better. TO say his athleticism is all that separates him is like saying Chamberlain and Jabbar were great only because they were so much taller which they were. Wilt went against guys 6 inches smaller. You want to talk about that? Please. I agree his athletic ability is off the shots but in a postive way.

 

[TomBrady#1]

im dead serious when i say that 'great' is too generic of an adjective when it comes to describing this kids floor vision and passing. he has hall of fame type vision.

so many people try to quantify someone's passing ability and simply go on assists alone. and his numbers are above average in that department and, ostensibly, nothing out of the ordinary.

but if you were to sit in the sections behind the baskets and watch the game from that vantage point (as opposed to the side-to-side television broadcast), you would be amazed at how many times he is able to thread the needle or force the defense to rotate one way before he whips a pass the opposite way for a clean look for a teammate. television broadcasts really dont do it justice. everything in the halfcourt looks 'ordinary' on television. but his passing is anything but ordinary. he absolutely has magic-esque floor vision.

as skins said, however, his jumper is very mediocre right now. hes far more of a scorer than a shooter. he unnecessarily fades away or is off balance on way too many shots and isnt a true 3-pt threat even though he has games where he can get hot and knock 3,4, or 5 down. but he has a lot of work to do with him shot. i think this series is good for him. hes been far superior his entire life to the competition so he never really had to worry about mechanics or anything like that. now he has to take one more step to reach truly elite status. he has gone from star to superstar. but he still has one more step/improvement to make before he can be considered one of the greats. the good news is hes 22 and only going to get better. his game is not flawless by any stretch. he is still a poor defender (though mike brown has made him better) and his shot needs work. gibson is the purest shooter on the team right now and those two are very tight so id expect him to improve in that area in the offseason.

it will be interesting to see how the cavs try to improve in the offseason. they are kind of cash strapped because of big contracts to ilgauskas, james, and ESPECIALLY hughes. so a big acquistion isnt likely. and they dont have a first round draft pick either. the cavs will be perennial eastern finals participants for quite awhile. but its clear they need one more piece and lebron needs to take one more step in order to get a championship.

Totally agree. To be this good already is amazing though. He does have a lot of improvment to make and he will. Good post.

Great point about his Hall of Fame vision, Prodigy.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Magic and Bird would win this series if you replaced LeBron with 1 of them. Magic would force the Cav's into running and getting easy baskets that would force the Spurs into playing a game they don't want to play.

Bird would open up the middle and would get the bigger players involved UNLIKE Lebron does.

Bird and Magic were so much better than Lebron. Lebron doesn't make his teamates better and that's the sign of a truely great player.

Lebron is a 1 on 1 player like Jordan. Neither does it all by themselves and neither of them made their teamates better.

Magic and Bird were so much better than Jordan and Lebron. Stop the love affair because that's all it is!

 

[prodigy]

Magic and Bird would win this series if you replaced LeBron with 1 of them. Magic would force the Cav's into running and getting easy baskets that would force the Spurs into playing a game they don't want to play.

Bird would open up the middle and would get the bigger players involved UNLIKE Lebron does.

Bird and Magic were so much better than Lebron. Lebron doesn't make his teamates better and that's the sign of a truely great player.

Lebron is a 1 on 1 player like Jordan. Neither does it all by themselves and neither of them made their teamates better.

Magic and Bird were so much better than Jordan and Lebron. Stop the love affair because that's all it is!

its taken a few months, but youve managed to trump your andruw jones for hall of fame post with this one.

impressive work.

its safe to say that james needs to work on his perimeter game. but he improved the play of his teammates from, oh .... about the time he put on a summer league jersey 4 years ago.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

A week ago Lebron had good teamates.

Now it's back to Lebron NOT having any teamates. It could never be Lebrons fault they are losing. I can see the trend here! Happened with Jordan too!

The love affair with a basketball player.

 

[royboy_3831]

The reality is the Cavs have a decent team at best - they will not be in finals next year - and they are totally outclassed by SA - they got to the finals by default - NJ and Washington - need I eloborate? - James is the 3rd best player in his draft class and somewhere among the top 15 players in the league - he scored 48 one night - it was a fluke - and he was crowned Jordan - well, the dust has settle and he's back to David Robinson which ain't too bad - and for people saying he had 25 points last night - he had 5 turnovers and shot 39% - and that's his big playoff performance against SA - based on performance - he's the 4th best player on the court - he's so young so one day I would imagine he becomes great for real and not for all the media hype BS - like Nike says - we're all witnesses.

Seymour, you obv know basketball, but sometimes your homerism is ridiculous. Find me one gm in all of basketball that would take Parker or Ginobli over James and I'll kiss your ass. No reason to make outrageous statements ala 'chop', you don't need to do that.

 

[royboy_3831]

its taken a few months, but youve managed to trump your andruw jones for hall of fame post with this one.

impressive work.

its safe to say that james needs to work on his perimeter game. but he improved the play of his teammates from, oh .... about the time he put on a summer league jersey 4 years ago.

Save your breath with this guy Prodigy. He knows nothing. Arguing with him is the equivalent of ramming your head against a wall. Dude is a fking brick.

 

[TomBrady#1]

Seymour, you obv know basketball, but sometimes your homerism is ridiculous. Find me one gm in all of basketball that would take Parker or Ginobli over James and I'll kiss your ass. No reason to make outrageous statements ala 'chop', you don't need to do that.

Seymor is the biggest homer on the board. Unreal. I like him however and Funk too (the clear number 2 homer...Seymor has impressively moved into the #1 position). THey both are good guys but pathetic homers.

 

[RupertPupkin]

its taken a few months, but youve managed to trump your andruw jones for hall of fame post with this one.

impressive work.

its safe to say that james needs to work on his perimeter game. but he improved the play of his teammates from, oh .... about the time he put on a summer league jersey 4 years ago.

2002-2003 ( year before James ) Cle 17-65 8th in Central
2003-2004 ( James 1st year ) 35-47 5th in Central
2004-2005 42-40 4th in Central
2005-2006 50-32 2nd in Central ( Lost East Conference Semifinals )
2006-2007 50-32 2nd in Central ( Lost NBA Finals )

Notice a trend here ...

 

[TomBrady#1]

Magic and Bird would not have won with the rest of the Cavs team.
Won game 3? Sure. Won the series? No. Spurs are simply that good.

If Lebron were 6'3-6'5 he would not be as good of a passer as he is now. As it is, he is 6'8-6'9 and can simply throw over defenses, an advantage players like Jason Kidd and Steve Nash do not have. Those two are much better passers and have much better vision than Lebron ever will.

That being said, Lebron is a damn good passer with above-average vision.

How many forwards are great passers??? Answer: Not many in the entire history of the NBA. Try to think of forwards that were great passers...guess what Larry Bird is the only one that is mentioned. That is it. Lebron is also a great passer so just being a forward that is a great passer is huge. There are not many. Nash and Kidd are great passers but are PG's. James is not. TO be a great passer from his position is the key point.

 

[RupertPupkin]

I love Magic and Bird , but lets look at the talent on the teams that drafted them ... compared to the players Lebron started with ...

Bird in 1980 ... Celtics had
Cowens ( HOF )
Maravich ( HOF )
Archibald ( HOF )

Johnson in 1980 ... Lakers had
Kareem ( HOF - NBA Alltime leading scorer )
Jamaal Wilkes ( 3 time allstar )
Norm Nixon ( 2 time allstar )
Spencer Haywood ( 5 time allstar )
Michael Cooper ( 5 time NBA 1st team defense )

Lebron 2002 Cavs had
Darius Miles ( 1st round Bust )
Carlos Boozer ( Good now , but a rookie then )
Big Z ( 3 time Loser )
Ricky Davis ( 5 time loser )


Interesting contrast ... I bet if Lebron had the "Luxuries" that Magic and Bird were afforded , he may have been playing in the finals a bit sooner , Just a hunch ...

 

[Seymour]

Of course James is a better player than Manu and Parker - I just said based on everyone's performance so far in the finals James is the 4th best player on the court - I like James - I like the way he plays (I know the rest of the team is shit) - but through 3 games he is shooting 37% (I even rounded up) and has 12 turnovers - and has not made one timely shot - he did make two important FT's though - while TD is shooting 50% and TP is shooting 53% - Duncan is doubled everytime he puts it on the floor just like James is - and the reality is James has the opportunity to take these games over but is reluctant to shoot from the outside and when he eventually does he's been missing - plain and simple - James is probably GOING TO BE a great player SOMEDAY - but that day has not arrived - and one night does not make him great - and the Cavs are so far from a championship they don't even know it - the soft ass Sunflowers would whoop the Cavs ass in 4 or 5 too - Cleveland needs several additionals to really compete with the top west teams.

 

[royboy_3831]

You make some good points, but I definitely disagree about him not being a great player yet. Maybe we have different definitions of 'great'. I also can't believe you think Melo is ahead of James at this point. The ONLY area he is better than James at this point in their career is the jumper. He is far behind James in almost every other aspect of the game, including intangibles. jmo

 

[lapdance]

lucky for you lebron kiss asses that they didn't call that last foul. because once again he would have choked with the game on the line. great players would have made those layups that he missed late in game 3. very, very good...yes. great...NO.

 

[royalfan]

You make some good points, but I definitely disagree about him not being a great player yet. Maybe we have different definitions of 'great'. I also can't believe you think Melo is ahead of James at this point. The ONLY area he is better than James at this point in their career is the jumper. He is far behind James in almost every other aspect of the game, including intangibles. jmo

Yeah anyone saying he is not great needs to have their head examined, plain and simple. Guy is phenominal.

 

[Dr.Knowitall]

Save your breath with this guy Prodigy. He knows nothing. Arguing with him is the equivalent of ramming your head against a wall. Dude is a fking brick.

I know I could out-pick anyone of you and in any sport in any year. I know that when the public falls in love with a player JUST BECAUSE the media tells them too that they are probably WRONG!

Lebron is better than Magic or Bird. Never happen!

And what exactly is wrong with defending the really great players who lose their greatness ONLY because they are NOT playing anymore.

Magic and Bird would dominate this league today if they were playing. If they played in the east it wouldn't matter what team they played for they would be in the finals right now because the whole east is horrible!

Lebron will be great and a sure top 50 player of all time. But there's 50 all time players who are still better than he is right now.

He is not this great passer you all make him out to be. Guess you guys really don't watch basketball. You guys must watch the highlights on ESPN and listen to what they tell you. Good for you guys.

 

[themanej2001]

You must compare him at his age. Koby at 22 was a joke! Jordan was not close to JORDAN at 22. As far as athletecism being all he got well what do you think Koby and Jordan had? Those lean 6"6,6"7 inch frames that make them get their shots off most of the time even while guarded, stop on a dime, and drive to the hoop like very few have is all god blessed athletic ability. Oh they practice hard but they are more physically gifted and so is James. His vision is superb for his position and so is his passing....he will be a top 10 scorer for sure consistently. His J will get much better and you see him driving now at will. Wait until he shoots better then that will make his offense that much better. TO say his athleticism is all that separates him is like saying Chamberlain and Jabbar were great only because they were so much taller which they were. Wilt went against guys 6 inches smaller. You want to talk about that? Please. I agree his athletic ability is off the shots but in a postive way.

Can we stop saying this... that Jordan wasn't Jordan at 22????

Jordan hit a game winning jumper in the national title game at the age of 20 and averaged 37.1 PPG as a 22 year old in the NBA while shooting 49% from the field and he played in one of the best ERA's in NBA history and had one of the worst teams in the league, if not the worst, and brought them to the playoffs that year... He wasn't going up against Washington and NJ in the playoffs he was going up against the Celtics... Do we see the difference here... Michael Jordan was every bit as good as Lebron James at the age of 22 and he had actually one something of importance and he played at a time when 22 year olds were extremely young and coming out of high school was unheard of.

 

[themanej2001]

I have said it here before... and it is probably getting old. But take out Lebron's phenomenal game and he has not risen to another level in these playoffs. He has not played at a higher level then he did in the regular season. His numbers and efficiency have actually gone down. He has struggled under the spot light and with the in your face defense...

Lebron is a big body and far more mature then his age. Who knows if he develops a great 3? No one does hell Michael never even did and he worked at it forever.

Lebron needs a trademark or a skill that makes him unstoppable at times...

Alla - Michael's turn around jumper
Magic's passing
Birds shot....

Those were untouchable... Lebron in all honesty doesn't make everyone that much better... He makes his team much better then they are but not by the degree you guys are making it seem. He is not at Magic's ability. And for people that think Jordan was a scorer and Lebron does it all that makes no sense.... One example is Damon Jones has a great year with Shaq and Wade, best three point shooter in the NBA... Comes to the Cavaliers and barely plays.

Do you guys think it is a coincidence that Kerr became the best 3 point shooter in the NBA while playing with Michael?
Or that Rodman stopped being such a prick and played every game as hard as he could compared to the past?
Or that Pippen used to be a bum on defense and became arguably the best perimeter defender the game has ever seen?
Michael Jordan pushed everyone to the limit. He didn't accept failure and pushed all his players far as they could go...

Lebron James has not won a game in this finals and, in all honesty, he has played flat out bad. He needs to be the aggressor, not the distributor. This is his series to win or lose and he should have known that. No they are not better then the Spurs but last night he could have taken that game over.

They said it last night, last year with 6 minutes to go the Heat were down this same amount, 13, and Wade just took the game over I think scoring 22 4th quarter points after that to win the game. THAT IS THAT INSTINCT that LEBRON still doesn't have yet, despite his one great game, and that is something that if we are going to compare him to Magic, Bird, Jordan and hell even Wade right now, he needs to develop. Guy has more talent then all of those guys besides probably Jordan so if he can maximize it he can get there IMO. But Lebron had a shot last night and he didn't get it done.

And don't bring the Shaq talk in here because Wade took that game over not Shaq. Hell Shaq wasn't even involved haha...

LEBRON is a top 5 player in the NBA right now. I don't throw the word superstar out there often because I think it is way overused. I think a Superstar is a guy who can take over a game at any moment in time and is a player that dominates anyone you stick on him. Lebron is one of 5 superstars in the NBA today... BUT HE is far from GREAT... Greatness is not achieved in 4 years... Greatness is a lifetime achievement that you need to earn.

How can you put a guy with zero rings, a bunch of mediocre playoff performances (By his averages and standards), and little defensive ability in the same league with three of the greatest players in NBA history, hell even mention his name as a comparison isn't even fair or correct right now....