CIGA is nothing more than an organization of sportsbooks that pal around together.This was stated to me by Alistair who took the chairmanship basically because nobody else would.I did talk to him and he said Roberto(scumbag CEO at Royal) would get back to me and he did to tell me that they were still going to screw me out of my commissions due.If this organization had any teeth or regulatory authority they would take a scalpel and remove the cancerous tumor that is Royal from their organization...but they don't. Nor does it appear they have any kahuna's either.
Autiger et al,
This will be Royal's only public comment to Autiger's allegations.
Here's the facts :
Back in May 2003 Autiger took a Carribbean vacation at Royal Sports expenses to discuss his upcoming Marketing Contract with a new book's principal.
Back in those days Autiger clearly stated to Oly's management he would have no longer promoted Royal Sports even in the event Royal would have been bought by Oly.
In July Autiger started promoting a new book without even the decency to inform Royal's management about his intentions.
At that time his balance was negative, however Royal did not claim anything from Autiger.
This is how Autiger promotes his new book :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dear Sportsfan:
As you are aware over the last 5 years I have made recommendations to you, my clients, about the use of an offshore sportsbook. Every year those recommendations have included Royal Sports located on the island of Curacao. I had always felt comfortable with Royal due to the fact that their principals were honest and trustworthy and of impeccable character which, in this business, is of paramount importance. I annually visited their book to insure that "all was well" for my customers.
During my visit in April of this year I began to notice inefficiencies at Royal and most importantly that all of the people at Royal I had come to know and trust were beginning to leave. The Dutch were beginning to assert control of what once had been a fairly "Americanized" operation. The final straw came in May when all of the individuals I had the utmost confidence and trust in decided, like some before them, to leave. Royal's operation to say the least began to suffer to where now it is only a shell of its former self. It is due to these factors that I can no longer recommend Royal Sports to my clients. In an industry where credibility is everything mine is not for sale. If I recommend a sportsbook I have checked them out on everything from fiscal stability, rapidity of payouts, customer service and most of all character. And it is with those things in mind that I am happy to report that all is not lost.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As Autiger was the only promoter who left Royal we then simply acknowledge the fact, also in view of his previous statements to Oly.
Autiger is free, as he has always been, to take his customers elsewhere but Royal Sports will not grant this gentleman any sort of "free ride".
Autiger, together with a group of his friends, has attempted to damage Royal's phone operation in a number of occasions by trying to jam our wagering numbers during crunch time.
In view of our expanded phone capacity his attempts to disrupt our phone operation have failed .
Autiger has informed Royal Sports of having retained a local lawyer.
Royal Sports is eager to face Autiger's representative and discard his alleged claims with facts.
Autiger has now decided to start smearing Royal Sports and its investors through public posts. Once again his choice .
In view of the above Royal will not make any further comments about this issue that is being clearly dealt by Autiger in an extortionist's fashion.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
This will be Royal's only public comment to Autiger's allegations.
Here's the facts :
Back in May 2003 Autiger took a Carribbean vacation at Royal Sports expenses to discuss his upcoming Marketing Contract with a new book's principal.
Back in those days Autiger clearly stated to Oly's management he would have no longer promoted Royal Sports even in the event Royal would have been bought by Oly.
In July Autiger started promoting a new book without even the decency to inform Royal's management about his intentions.
At that time his balance was negative, however Royal did not claim anything from Autiger.
This is how Autiger promotes his new book :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Dear Sportsfan:
As you are aware over the last 5 years I have made recommendations to you, my clients, about the use of an offshore sportsbook. Every year those recommendations have included Royal Sports located on the island of Curacao. I had always felt comfortable with Royal due to the fact that their principals were honest and trustworthy and of impeccable character which, in this business, is of paramount importance. I annually visited their book to insure that "all was well" for my customers.
During my visit in April of this year I began to notice inefficiencies at Royal and most importantly that all of the people at Royal I had come to know and trust were beginning to leave. The Dutch were beginning to assert control of what once had been a fairly "Americanized" operation. The final straw came in May when all of the individuals I had the utmost confidence and trust in decided, like some before them, to leave. Royal's operation to say the least began to suffer to where now it is only a shell of its former self. It is due to these factors that I can no longer recommend Royal Sports to my clients. In an industry where credibility is everything mine is not for sale. If I recommend a sportsbook I have checked them out on everything from fiscal stability, rapidity of payouts, customer service and most of all character. And it is with those things in mind that I am happy to report that all is not lost.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As Autiger was the only promoter who left Royal we then simply acknowledge the fact, also in view of his previous statements to Oly.
Autiger is free, as he has always been, to take his customers elsewhere but Royal Sports will not grant this gentleman any sort of "free ride".
Autiger, together with a group of his friends, has attempted to damage Royal's phone operation in a number of occasions by trying to jam our wagering numbers during crunch time.
In view of our expanded phone capacity his attempts to disrupt our phone operation have failed .
Autiger has informed Royal Sports of having retained a local lawyer.
Royal Sports is eager to face Autiger's representative and discard his alleged claims with facts.
Autiger has now decided to start smearing Royal Sports and its investors through public posts. Once again his choice .
In view of the above Royal will not make any further comments about this issue that is being clearly dealt by Autiger in an extortionist's fashion.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
This is a weak reply from Royal. If an agreement was made to pay Autiger in perpetuity for the people he recommended to Royal, then that agreement should be honored. If Royal wants out of that agreement because their relationship with Autiger has soured, then they should reach a mutually agreeable solution. They should not simply confiscate his fairly earned referral money because of cour grapes over his decision to no longer recommend Royal.
The fact that his balance was negative when he stopped recommending Royal is irrelevant, by the way. If the agreement was to be paid in perpetuity and Autiger's referrals continued to deposit money with Royal, then he should continue to be paid unless Royal and Autiger agreed on a buy out of their agreement.
I am basing this on the fact that Autiger has claimed that their agreement was for referral payments in perpetuity. Royal hasn't disputed that statement, so it's reasonable to assume that Autiger is telling the truth about that.
The fact that his balance was negative when he stopped recommending Royal is irrelevant, by the way. If the agreement was to be paid in perpetuity and Autiger's referrals continued to deposit money with Royal, then he should continue to be paid unless Royal and Autiger agreed on a buy out of their agreement.
I am basing this on the fact that Autiger has claimed that their agreement was for referral payments in perpetuity. Royal hasn't disputed that statement, so it's reasonable to assume that Autiger is telling the truth about that.
I have no idea who Autiger is, if that is what you are implying. My only interest in this is that a person had a complaint about the sportsbook, the sportsbook responded with a bullshit sour grapes response, and I am calling them on it.
You clearly don't understand the meaning of the phrase, "in perpetuity." That means if Autiger refers someone to Royal, he receives an amount of money every time they deposit with Royal for the life of their account. That money is given to Autiger regardless of the current status of Autiger's recommendation of Royal. Unless both parties agree that, "in perpetuity," actually means, "in perpetuity unless Autiger stops recommending us," then Autiger should get his money.
Your arguments about Autiger breaching the contract are misguided. The fact that he recommends or doesn't recommend Royal is totally irrelevant to Autiger's money being stolen. Autiger recommended Royal, those players lost money to Royal and Royal agreed to pay Autiger a percentage of all player losses with those accounts in perpetutity.
This is a case of sour grapes. Royal is mad because they are no longer being recommended so they are renegging on their agreement. In reference to my earlier statement, the decision in question is: Do I honor an agreement even though I am no longer on good terms with the other party? What would you do, Lander? Or better yet, what would you do if you had high moral character?
You clearly don't understand the meaning of the phrase, "in perpetuity." That means if Autiger refers someone to Royal, he receives an amount of money every time they deposit with Royal for the life of their account. That money is given to Autiger regardless of the current status of Autiger's recommendation of Royal. Unless both parties agree that, "in perpetuity," actually means, "in perpetuity unless Autiger stops recommending us," then Autiger should get his money.
Your arguments about Autiger breaching the contract are misguided. The fact that he recommends or doesn't recommend Royal is totally irrelevant to Autiger's money being stolen. Autiger recommended Royal, those players lost money to Royal and Royal agreed to pay Autiger a percentage of all player losses with those accounts in perpetutity.
This is a case of sour grapes. Royal is mad because they are no longer being recommended so they are renegging on their agreement. In reference to my earlier statement, the decision in question is: Do I honor an agreement even though I am no longer on good terms with the other party? What would you do, Lander? Or better yet, what would you do if you had high moral character?
Dear N.D. ,
You do have a point when you mention "perpetuity" however you might have missed the following :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Back in those days Autiger clearly stated to Oly's management he would have no longer promoted Royal Sports even in the event Royal would have been bought by Oly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This reads as follows : I, Autiger will move on and promote another book ( perfectly fine ). This means the agreement is over ( which is also fine ). And this was stated by Autiger back in May and to a third party ( Oly ).
Autiger has no valid claim as he terminated the contract.
His current actions and behaviours simply show his true nature. But again this is his choice.
Thank you.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
You do have a point when you mention "perpetuity" however you might have missed the following :
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Back in those days Autiger clearly stated to Oly's management he would have no longer promoted Royal Sports even in the event Royal would have been bought by Oly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This reads as follows : I, Autiger will move on and promote another book ( perfectly fine ). This means the agreement is over ( which is also fine ). And this was stated by Autiger back in May and to a third party ( Oly ).
Autiger has no valid claim as he terminated the contract.
His current actions and behaviours simply show his true nature. But again this is his choice.
Thank you.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
Here is where I think the discrepancy lies...
--Autiger says that on Sept 25, 2003 he logged into his account to find his commission balance at $5500.
--Royal claims that prior that Sept date, in July 2003 when autiger began promoting another book, that his balance was negative.
The question then is then -- assuming that both of these claims are correct -- how did autiger's balance go from negative to +$5,500 during a period in which Royal knew he was promoting another book?...Did Royal mistakenly credit his account? Was it not really $5500 on 9/25/03? This is the factual issue here that needs clearing up.
Seems to me that if Royal is correct that he had a negative balance when he began promoting another book (and thus presumably in effect terminated his contract with Royal) then Royal owes him nothing. Whatever his balance was, if any (Royal seems to claim it was negative), when he effectively ended his contract with Royal, should be paid. These facts have not been discussed here.
--Autiger says that on Sept 25, 2003 he logged into his account to find his commission balance at $5500.
--Royal claims that prior that Sept date, in July 2003 when autiger began promoting another book, that his balance was negative.
The question then is then -- assuming that both of these claims are correct -- how did autiger's balance go from negative to +$5,500 during a period in which Royal knew he was promoting another book?...Did Royal mistakenly credit his account? Was it not really $5500 on 9/25/03? This is the factual issue here that needs clearing up.
Seems to me that if Royal is correct that he had a negative balance when he began promoting another book (and thus presumably in effect terminated his contract with Royal) then Royal owes him nothing. Whatever his balance was, if any (Royal seems to claim it was negative), when he effectively ended his contract with Royal, should be paid. These facts have not been discussed here.
Royal,
I have to disagree with what you are saying. Autiger's agreement to promote Royal may have ended, meaning that Autiger would receive no money on *new* accounts opened from people referred by Autiger. The issue here is additional losses on old accounts that were initially referred by Autiger. Unless both parties agreed before the initial agreement was made that all payments would cease if Autiger chose to no longer recommend Royal, then he should be paid. "In perpetuity" does not have any restrictions unless agreed upon by *both* parties *before* the initial agreement is made.
Let me give you an example. Jack Nicholson agrees to star in ANGER MANAGEMENT for Sony. As part of that initial agreement, both parties agree that Jack gets 20% of all gross revenues from box office receipts and DVD rentals/sales. Tracey Trench (Sony exec) has a party at her house to celebrate the opening of ANGER MANAGEMENT and Jack sees Tracey geting gangbanged by Adam Sandler and Tim Herlihy. Jack then goes to his agent and some of his actor friends and tells them to beware of agreeing to do movies with Sony because Tracey is a slut. Tracey gets word of this and tries to stop residual payments on ANGER MANAGEMENT to Jack because she feels that Jack is unfairly hurting her business. Do you think Tracey would win in court? (None of this really happened, of course.)
I have to disagree with what you are saying. Autiger's agreement to promote Royal may have ended, meaning that Autiger would receive no money on *new* accounts opened from people referred by Autiger. The issue here is additional losses on old accounts that were initially referred by Autiger. Unless both parties agreed before the initial agreement was made that all payments would cease if Autiger chose to no longer recommend Royal, then he should be paid. "In perpetuity" does not have any restrictions unless agreed upon by *both* parties *before* the initial agreement is made.
Let me give you an example. Jack Nicholson agrees to star in ANGER MANAGEMENT for Sony. As part of that initial agreement, both parties agree that Jack gets 20% of all gross revenues from box office receipts and DVD rentals/sales. Tracey Trench (Sony exec) has a party at her house to celebrate the opening of ANGER MANAGEMENT and Jack sees Tracey geting gangbanged by Adam Sandler and Tim Herlihy. Jack then goes to his agent and some of his actor friends and tells them to beware of agreeing to do movies with Sony because Tracey is a slut. Tracey gets word of this and tries to stop residual payments on ANGER MANAGEMENT to Jack because she feels that Jack is unfairly hurting her business. Do you think Tracey would win in court? (None of this really happened, of course.)
D2bets,
Your statement is correct. At time of termination Autiger's balance was indeed negative, thus Royal did not ask for compensation .
It is also true, and this is our own fault, that his account was not update and closed. In fact, knowing his intentions we simply forgot about Autiger.
We are in the belief Autiger had forgotten about us too, as he accessed his account with us only once since July 1st 2003.
Autiger accessed his account on Sept 29th at 11.59 AM Eastern.
Indeed strange behaviour considering Autiger's statements of supporting Royal "behind the scenes".
Nevertheless : Autiger told Oly and Scotty Johnson ( our Operation Manager at that time ) that he would have discontinued to promote Royal Sports. We have acknowledged his decision and wish him all the best for his future.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
Your statement is correct. At time of termination Autiger's balance was indeed negative, thus Royal did not ask for compensation .
It is also true, and this is our own fault, that his account was not update and closed. In fact, knowing his intentions we simply forgot about Autiger.
We are in the belief Autiger had forgotten about us too, as he accessed his account with us only once since July 1st 2003.
Autiger accessed his account on Sept 29th at 11.59 AM Eastern.
Indeed strange behaviour considering Autiger's statements of supporting Royal "behind the scenes".
Nevertheless : Autiger told Oly and Scotty Johnson ( our Operation Manager at that time ) that he would have discontinued to promote Royal Sports. We have acknowledged his decision and wish him all the best for his future.
Royal Sports
The Book of Kings
1-800-818-1000
I am sure that his commission balance rose after the July situation to the $5500. Probably more.
One thing that people dotn realize around here is that these Scamdicappers bring in some HIGH $$$$$$$$$$$ clients who spend LOTS of money with sites that they promote.
99% of the guys who use the 900 numbers or use the scamdicapper sites have NO IDEA in the world about sites like majorwager or therx.com.
I am quite sure that royal made a killing off of his clients and will continue to do so. That said, just pay the guy like $2000 and be done with it.
From now on, you get ALL money earned from these clients and there will be plenty more to earn.
In addition, some people at this site somehow feel that EVERY gambler in the world knows about our favorite sites! Well in reality only about 10% have EVEN heard of such sites, much less visited them!
Incidently, this scamdicapper is part of the prolinetv bunch. And those guys have HUGE audiences across the US and world who watch the USA network for their shows. Bad move by royal to stop the commission checks sicne this guys clients would have kept playing there, but not now I guess
One thing that people dotn realize around here is that these Scamdicappers bring in some HIGH $$$$$$$$$$$ clients who spend LOTS of money with sites that they promote.
99% of the guys who use the 900 numbers or use the scamdicapper sites have NO IDEA in the world about sites like majorwager or therx.com.
I am quite sure that royal made a killing off of his clients and will continue to do so. That said, just pay the guy like $2000 and be done with it.
From now on, you get ALL money earned from these clients and there will be plenty more to earn.
In addition, some people at this site somehow feel that EVERY gambler in the world knows about our favorite sites! Well in reality only about 10% have EVEN heard of such sites, much less visited them!
Incidently, this scamdicapper is part of the prolinetv bunch. And those guys have HUGE audiences across the US and world who watch the USA network for their shows. Bad move by royal to stop the commission checks sicne this guys clients would have kept playing there, but not now I guess
D2bets,
You are missing the issue here entirely. Autiger was to receive a percentage of losses from previously referred people in perpetuity. In July, his referral balance was negative. From July to Setember 29, some of the people Autiger originally referred lost money to Royal, upping Autiger's referral account to $5,500.
The nameless representative from Royal Sports continues to evade the real issue. Royal made an agreement to pay on those referral accounts in perpetuity and now they are stiffing Autiger because he stopped recommending them. Autiger is not claiming that he should get referral money on any new Royal accounts opened after he stopped recommending them. He just wants the money that is owed to him from the accounts that he originally referred to Royal.
Here is the real reason I am so passionate about this issue right now. If books are allowed to stiff "promoters" on legitmate referral accounts just because the "promoter" no longer can give an honest recommendation of a book, then average square gamblers like myself are hurt because "promoters" will essentially be forced to keep recommending a bad book forever or risk losing their rightfully owed money.
I am not passing judgment one way or another on the reasons behind Autiger's decision to stop recommending Royal. I am just saying that an agreement made by two consenting parties should stand unless *both* parties agree to a buyout of that agreement.
You are missing the issue here entirely. Autiger was to receive a percentage of losses from previously referred people in perpetuity. In July, his referral balance was negative. From July to Setember 29, some of the people Autiger originally referred lost money to Royal, upping Autiger's referral account to $5,500.
The nameless representative from Royal Sports continues to evade the real issue. Royal made an agreement to pay on those referral accounts in perpetuity and now they are stiffing Autiger because he stopped recommending them. Autiger is not claiming that he should get referral money on any new Royal accounts opened after he stopped recommending them. He just wants the money that is owed to him from the accounts that he originally referred to Royal.
Here is the real reason I am so passionate about this issue right now. If books are allowed to stiff "promoters" on legitmate referral accounts just because the "promoter" no longer can give an honest recommendation of a book, then average square gamblers like myself are hurt because "promoters" will essentially be forced to keep recommending a bad book forever or risk losing their rightfully owed money.
I am not passing judgment one way or another on the reasons behind Autiger's decision to stop recommending Royal. I am just saying that an agreement made by two consenting parties should stand unless *both* parties agree to a buyout of that agreement.
Nick, I see what you're saying. What it comes down to then is the particular contract that they were working under (I'm assuming, and hoping, that they had one). Did the contract specify what would happen when autiger stopped (might depend on voluntary vs. involuntary) recommending them or did it (does it) continue in perpetuity despite the ending of the ongoing relationship. Without seeing the contract language we just don't know the answer.
I don't think it would be unreasonable or unusual for the contract to essentially say that it ends when the promotor stops continuing it's promotion of the book, even for players that are still playing at the book that were referred by the promotor.
At least I think we now know the facts so now it jst comes down to the nitty-gritty of the contract.
To Royal: Could you please post the clause or clauses in the contract which you believe gives you the "out" here to terminate paying autiger in perpetuity. Or, in the alternative, what action or actions by autiger breached the contract in such a way to allow breaking the contract to pay him in perpetuity for accounts already referred.
I don't think it would be unreasonable or unusual for the contract to essentially say that it ends when the promotor stops continuing it's promotion of the book, even for players that are still playing at the book that were referred by the promotor.
At least I think we now know the facts so now it jst comes down to the nitty-gritty of the contract.
To Royal: Could you please post the clause or clauses in the contract which you believe gives you the "out" here to terminate paying autiger in perpetuity. Or, in the alternative, what action or actions by autiger breached the contract in such a way to allow breaking the contract to pay him in perpetuity for accounts already referred.
Seymour makes an excellent point. This whole matter is bears no impact on regular customer accounts. I wouldn't think there's a reason for normal wagering customers to worry about something like this.
D2bets,
Obviously we don't know the particulars of any contract. I think Autiger mentioned it was an oral contract, anyway. Where we disagree is whether it is reasonable to confiscate future owed money once a relationship ends. Autiger essentially got Royal those customers. In return, Royal agreed that Autiger would get a percentage of their losses as long as those people remained active customers.
I find it hard to imagine that anyone in Autiger's position would have agreed to this deal if Royal would have told him that he would stop getting his cut if he stopped recommending Royal. He would have probably just gone to another book to make the deal if Royal would have tried to add that stipulation. It is only now, after the relationship with Autiger soured, that Royal is trying to reneg on their prior agreement.
D2bets,
Obviously we don't know the particulars of any contract. I think Autiger mentioned it was an oral contract, anyway. Where we disagree is whether it is reasonable to confiscate future owed money once a relationship ends. Autiger essentially got Royal those customers. In return, Royal agreed that Autiger would get a percentage of their losses as long as those people remained active customers.
I find it hard to imagine that anyone in Autiger's position would have agreed to this deal if Royal would have told him that he would stop getting his cut if he stopped recommending Royal. He would have probably just gone to another book to make the deal if Royal would have tried to add that stipulation. It is only now, after the relationship with Autiger soured, that Royal is trying to reneg on their prior agreement.
Nick Douglas - Being that autiger is an American probably living on American soil it was most likely a Verbal agreement as most agreements between American promoters and offshore sportsbooks are, for obvious reasons.
This a normal practice in this industry.
And being that there are no longer Americans in upper management left at Royal...well I'll just leave to you guys to figure out what happened here.
Keep in mind we are talking about gambling on American sports.
This a normal practice in this industry.
And being that there are no longer Americans in upper management left at Royal...well I'll just leave to you guys to figure out what happened here.
Keep in mind we are talking about gambling on American sports.
As for Royal's excuses for stealing my earned commissions they don't hold water.They are right that I no longer recommend them....would you?I saw this coming in May at a trip that I took (that Royal agreed to pay for but later reneged on)to collect on monies owed to me since March.After some BS about how many checks they could run through the bank every day they paid me in cash after 2 trips back to their offices.I knew then that money was a problem and in good conscience could not recommend them to my customers and risk them not being paid. In July I was apprised by Scotty(an honest and trustworthy individual that has since left for BetJamaica) that a deal was almost finalized between Olympic and Royal and he asked if I would continue to recommend Royal.I stated that if Spiros (at Olympic) took control I would have no problem whatsoever as I deem him as one of the most respectable stalwarts in the industry.Scotty informed me days later that the deal had fallen through,that he had all he could stand as was leaving as well.At NO TIME did I ever speak to Olympic or discuss anything about my recommendation of sportsbooks with anyone there or at Royal.In late August I posted the letter regarding my No recommendation of Royal based on the occurances I have described.Also I did have a negative balance in July(not many customers playing that time of the year)but my balance on Sept.25th was a positive $5500.I checked this account on numerous occasions(at least weekly on Mondays when Royal updates their figures to promoters)not just once as Royal claims.After seeing my positive balance Royal blocks my password access so I can no longer check my account and after repeated calls Kenneth(one of scumbag CEO Roberto's minions)tells me that because of a letter on my website(that had been there since August 20th with no mention by Royal)that my accounts had been converted (stolen)to house accounts.I simply stated that they had borne out what I stated in the letter.I will continue to write the truth about Royal (it's not slander if it's the truth)in every posting forum I possibly can.
autiger, in your "verbal agreement" was it ever initially discussed what would happen if and when you stopped promoting Royal? It just seems that your understanding was that your payments would continue and Royal's understanding was that payments would stop.
Or is there truly is a standard business practice in this area with regard to these types of arrangements?
Or is there truly is a standard business practice in this area with regard to these types of arrangements?
