Obama calls Cambridge cop stupid.The cops report you decide...

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Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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Broken in door + phone call eyewitnessing such is probable cause.And clearly passes your smell test.
No brainer.

Nonsense.

To better understand what constitutes PC for police to enter a private residence without permission of the owner or resident, it's helpful if you will to imagine the cop(s) having a judge in their car to whom they could right on the spot apply for a warrant to legally enter.

Now Gates's allowing the police officer to enter without protest essentially waived his 4th Amendment protections against police entry...but the scenario you're supposing is that police needed nothing more than a complaintant saying they saw someone trying to force the door.

With that information solely, this is pretty much how a warrant application would be handled:

PoliceOfficer: We have a report from a passerby that she saw two men attempting to force the front door open. We went to the closed front door where we could see two men through the glass.

Judge: Were either of the men a resident clearly involved in burglarizing the home?

P: No.

J: Did you identify either of the men.

P: One man told us his name Henry Gates - and that he was the resident.

J: Did he give you permission to enter?



And this is where the actual events of the case veer from what could have otherwise happened had Gates denied the officers entry.

Had he denied them entry:

P: No, he would not give us permission to enter

J: Did you verify if Mr Gates was the legal resident?

P: No

J: Was either man visibly commiting a crime in your view?

P: No


And that's that. What then are the legal options for the officer(s) if they still feel that the men inside may NOT be the legal resident(s)?


First, they can continue observing the house to assure the men inside do not begin acting in a suspected criminal manner (removing valuables from the home and placing them in a vehicle etc).

While doing that, they can with reasonable ease identify the actual owner of the home, likely within a few minutes.

They can knock on neighboring doors and ask other residents if they know who the resident is at the cited residence.

They can of course also ask passersby if they are aware of the identity of the true resident of the cited residence.

In the specific case, they could even ask any of the above people to take a look through the glass windows (as the cops themselves had already done) and tell the cops if they recognize the men inside as one or more of the legal residents of the cited house.

There are likely several other reasonable and legal methods the cops may employ to better determine if the men inside are there without permission of the legal owner or resident.

But one method they absolutely CANNOT do is enter the residence without permission of the owner or legal resident UNLESS they have clear and persuasive evidence that the men inside are committing a crime.

===

That's useful information for any of us who might receive a knock on the door from police for any reason. Gates correctly followed the law when he identified himself to Crowley.

Since he was not operating a vehicle, nor was a non-citizen immigrant, he is not required by law to show any kind of identification, though that does not preclude the officer asking for such.

However, he did offer to procure identification, which is his free choice.

Where he messed up is that he did not then close the door in the officer's face or tell the officer, "Wait here please and do not come in my house".

And then, as most all of us agree, he erred even further by then initiating a verbal smakdown on the officer.

Though fully legal, that placed the officer in a difficult position from a point of pride. While he (Crowley) should have simply turned and left the house, he instead decided to arrest Gates. And though the charge was without merit, there was nothing that Gates could then do save to forcibly resist that arrest - itself a separate and distinct crime.
 

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And then, as most all of us agree, he erred even further by then initiating a verbal smakdown on the officer.
quote]

now bar, who cares about a verbal smackdown? in certain cases i think we could all tell an individual to "fuck you, you cocksmokin sumbitch, kiss my motherfuckin ass you cornholin shitkickin goddamn idiot shiteatin motherfucker" without worry. but in other instances, we would only address that same individual as "sir".

the only verbal smackdowns that i respect are the ones you give somebody and they don't have the balls to respond even though they may respond without worry of legal respite....
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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I'd invite anyone reading my above posts in this thread to separate the 4th Amendment questions raised by the Gates/Crowley encounter from other aspects of the event with which most of us are likely pretty much in agreement.

1) It's appropriate for police to investigate a complaint of someone "forcing a door" on a private residence

2) It's fully legal for them to ask anyone inside said residence to identify themselves.

3) The person inside is legally obligated to identify themselves, though they are not required to prove their identity.

4) It's a dubious choice to publicly berate a police officer, especially in any kind of loud or aggressive manner. While fully protected speech, one can still be arrested. And the consequences of an arrest - though it may be utterly without merit - for most people invite some prudence over pride (Gates in this case)

5) Police officers have a tough job and one of the toughest parts is having one or more citizens criticize them face 2 face, especially in view of other citizens.

===
One can agree with some or all of the above without taking undue issue with how awesome the 4th Amendment is with regard to protecting us against undue intrusions by officers of the state.

You or I leave our private residence and we're far less protected. But within our home, it's great to know that police must be able to obtain a legal warrant and/or be able to clearly see us commiting a criminal act before they can enter our home without our permission.
 

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OK you can parse and split hairs till the cows come home the bottom line is Gates is not going to suit.No one is.So your premise is a moot point.There were no laws broken by the cop.
The cop acted with good intent and with the spirit of the law period.there was no negligence or malice.
I hope the fuck Gates does suit because he,Simmons,Patrick, and President Sham Wow will be blown out in the court of public opinion when all the evidence is brought out in public.
Call up Gates maybe you can be his counsel going forward.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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And then, as most all of us agree, he erred even further by then initiating a verbal smakdown on the officer.
quote]

now bar, who cares about a verbal smackdown? .

When the person your verbally berating (either in normal volume or raised voice) is someone who has the ability to place you in handcuffs and transport you to the county hoosegow, he or she is someone to who we might give a second of prudent thought before we open our mouth.

While your smakdown might be unworthy of criminal charges thanks to the First Amendment, you're still in jail and it's going to cost you some money and time (for starters) to get out. And that's not even mentioning the other negative consequences which can entail from your being arrested, even if the arrest was completely without merit.

If we use the Ol' WhatIfIWereGatesAndCouldGoBackInTime Machine, the best response would have been for him to quietly show his Harvard ID and then say something like, "If you want to check me out further, I'd like you to first step outside my house. I'm not going anywhere."

And then later, he could have contacted a reporter or Cambridge PD IAB or whoever and registered his strong disagreement with the officer having entered his home without permission, with the officer's demanding ID, with the officer's demanding additional ID after being shown the Harvard ID....and on we go.

Blowing up on the scene took away a lot of the incredibly strong tactical advantage all Americans enjoy when police knock on the door of their private residence and begin asking questions.
 

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Where he messed up is that he did not then close the door in the officer's face or tell the officer, "Wait here please and do not come in my house".



Though fully legal, that placed the officer in a difficult position from a point of pride. While he (Crowley) should have simply turned and left the house, he instead decided to arrest Gates. And though the charge was without merit, there was nothing that Gates could then do save to forcibly resist that arrest - itself a separate and distinct crime.

i agree with the first part. it would have been hard for the officer to justify coming into the home, and therefore turning on the bitch alarm, if he had been asked to stay outside. it makes me wonder about gates' motivations if he were aware of the laws, or his courage if it was simply a matter of him saying "sir, would you mind staying where you are while i get my id?" of course, if there was suspicion that the unproven resident was in the commission of a crime, why should an officer comply with the request while the suspect "gets his id"? i'm sure we all have our own special memories regarding the whole "i'll be right back" excuse.

as to your second point....i gotta scroll back up....

yeah. been my experience that when two men are engaged in a pissing contest, the one with authority will win. saturday night at the bar, i get my ass kicked.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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There were no laws broken by the cop.
The cop acted with good intent and with the spirit of the law period.there was no negligence or malice.

It's reasonable to state that at worst, Crowley acted foolishly, or even "stupidly". And fortunately in this case, neither is a crime.

And it's equally reasonable to state that Gates acted foolishly, or even "stupidly". Likewise, neither is a crime.

As noted in my last post however, if a cop and a civilian are both going to behave foolishly, it's certainly preferable you're not the civilian. Because it's "going to hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt the cop".
 

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i wonder how far this would have gone if all involved had known that crowley was a well respected, veteran officer, had attempted to resuscitate a black athlete almost two decades ago, and trained other officers on how to respectfully handle racial issues. gates had no idea who he was speaking to, obama had no idea who he was calling stupid as i'm sure he spent most of his time that day studying possible questions related to healthcare....if this had been a yong private he would be suspended without pay right now....
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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Yum...dinner was good.

--
Returning for a moment to posted complaints about "parsing down" the constitutional questions in play, it's again helpful to set aside the personalities in this one individual incident (Gates/Crowley/Obama) so that one can more fully appreciate the greatness of both the First and Fourth Amendments.

In this story, it's just two guys none of us know or had even heard of prior to a week ago. So it's perhaps easier to shrug off the constitutional aspects.

But there may well come a day in the future when the person being unduly accosted by police in their home is someone in your family, or your close circle of friends...or...YOU.

And when it happens and you or your family member correctly asserts their civil rights, there will be no shortage of third party observers who will cry, "Why didn't you just keep your mouth shut?"

Or, "What's the big deal about letting a cop into your house if you've done nothing wrong??"

And at that moment, you'll forget all about Henry Gates, or Officer Crowley, or even who the POTUS is at the time.

All you'll be interested in is how great it is for you (or your family member) to have those protected civil rights.

Anything I can do to further educate and empower my fellow Americans with regard to exercising their constitutionally protected civil rights is a minute, or hour or day very well spent.
 

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now bar, as i prepare to figure out what seasonings to throw into the flour i will use to fry my pork chops (any suggestions are fine), i must say this:

some people feel more persecuted than others. if confronted by law enforcement, i believe i would be as reasonable as possible to assuage any assumption of personal guilt. if that means the cop saying "care if i have a look around" after he showed up at my house due to a 911 call of a break-in, i would say "yes sir". saying "fuck you" gets you nowhere, except maybe the next 911 call that comes from your residence and the cop says "you know, fuck him"....

laws aside, if the case went up i'm sure it would stir a good debate among the judges. would their decision be the same if it was black cop/white citizen and white cop/black citizen...
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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... if confronted by law enforcement, i believe i would be as reasonable as possible to assuage any assumption of personal guilt. if that means the cop saying "care if i have a look around" after he showed up at my house due to a 911 call of a break-in, i would say "yes sir".

You would permit a police officer to search your home when you know full well there is no reason for him to do so?

I find that astonishing.

Perhaps you wrote in haste and created too simple an example of how you might elect to be cooperative during a personal encounter with police.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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Reminds me of the radio host I heard a while back who was hoping to promote a more cooperative attitude with police.

He created an imaginary example of " a child goes missing in my neighborhood and the police knock on my door and ask if they can take a look through my house. I would of course allow them to look through my house!"

And I'm listening to this with my jaw dropped, thinking, "Why in the hell would you do that?"
 

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You would permit a police officer to search your home when you know full well there is no reason for him to do so?

I find that astonishing.

Perhaps you wrote in haste and created too simple an example of how you might elect to be cooperative during a personal encounter with police.

the fact that a neighbor called 911 regarding my residence would gain my respect that he is trying to do his job. i'm not assuming that he pulled up at the curb and asked to come in for the hell of it.
 

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Reminds me of the radio host I heard a while back who was hoping to promote a more cooperative attitude with police.

He created an imaginary example of " a child goes missing in my neighborhood and the police knock on my door and ask if they can take a look through my house. I would of course allow them to look through my house!"

And I'm listening to this with my jaw dropped, thinking, "Why in the hell would you do that?"

in my kind of neighborhood, if a child goes missing you absolve yourself of any guilt early and often. so yes, if a cop investigating the case asked if he could enter in order to investigate the matter i would say "yes sir". god forbid if this neighborhood suspected you of harming a child.... since i partake in no illegal activities it is an easy decision...

now if i had a line of coke on my living room table or something like that, i might be of a different mind....
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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the fact that a neighbor called 911 regarding my residence would gain my respect that he is trying to do his job. i'm not assuming that he pulled up at the curb and asked to come in for the hell of it.

Yeah...but you're in the house. You KNOW no one is committing a crime within. Why in the world would you waste a police officer's time by consenting to his "taking a look around"?


Actually, it's a fairly moot point because I can't imagine a police officer actually asking you to "take a look around" once you answered the door and told him, "No problem here. Thanks for asking". You're probably the squarest looking white guy he'll encounter all month.

Obviously not a criminal....eh?
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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in my kind of neighborhood, if a child goes missing you absolve yourself of any guilt early and often. so yes, if a cop investigating the case asked if he could enter in order to investigate the matter i would say "yes sir". .

You're kidding, right?

A young child is missing and there's a major search of the neighborhood going on.

Time is of the essence.

And you would allow one or more cops to waste valuable minutes searching somewhere that you know 100%, absolutely without question is NOT the location of the missing child?



(again...it's an admittedly specious example, because police don't actually knock on doors and ask to search unless they have reasonable cause to believe they've got the right house)
 

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Yeah...but you're in the house. You KNOW no one is committing a crime within. Why in the world would you waste a police officer's time by consenting to his "taking a look around"?


Actually, it's a fairly moot point because I can't imagine a police officer actually asking you to "take a look around" once you answered the door and told him, "No problem here. Thanks for asking". You're probably the squarest looking white guy he'll encounter all month.

Obviously not a criminal....eh?

one of the commentators on the news the other day raised the possibility that perhaps your wife or kid is being held at gun point and you have been instructed to tell the police that everything is hunkidoori (however you spell that shit)...

i mean, when a 911 call is responded to, doesn't the cop have an obligation to ensure that everything is fine? God forbid if another 911 call comes from that address 5 minutes later....

yes, i'd cooperate to what i felt was reasonable. if he were to take out a hammer and start beating down the walls, or told me to strip so he could search me, we might have a problem. but i'm basing this on an argument that someone called 911 and reported a possible cime at my home. i would cooperate as much as possible to show that no crime was being committed.
 

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You're kidding, right?

A young child is missing and there's a major search of the neighborhood going on.

Time is of the essence.

And you would allow one or more cops to waste valuable minutes searching somewhere that you know 100%, absolutely without question is NOT the location of the missing child?



(again...it's an admittedly specious example, because police don't actually knock on doors and ask to search unless they have reasonable cause to believe they've got the right house)

it's not up to me to determine what's a waste of time. at that point the police have a serious investigation going on. god damn me if i slow them up. search my house, nothing going on here, hit the next, and i hope you find the child and arrest the suspect.
 

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I am talking about the Mallahan case and not you quote the Mulvey case. Good lord. I know the first letter is the same, but come on now.

My mistake.

But the details of the Mallahan case do not apply to Mr. Gates either.

One of the crucial details in Commonwealth v. Mallahan is that the defendant Mallahan was screaming after he was already handcuffed...
Following his arrest for assault and battery arising out of a domestic violence incident, the defendant launched a screaming tirade at the arresting police officers.​
Courts in Massachusetts and elsewhere generally resist "piling on" additional charges like disorderly conduct in cases of domestic violence.
 

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Police must have a warrant to enter a private residence without permission unless they have clear evidence that a crime is being perpetrated.

The 4th Amendment is very, very stern as to when, where and why an officer of the state may enter a private residence without permission of the owner or resident.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on that, in exactly this type of situation...Sgt. Crowley's response was more measured than it had to be and he clearly did not need a warrant.


The first question to be asked about Sgt. Crowley's initial response is, was it lawful and reasonable? Clearly it was both. A cornerstone U.S. Supreme Court decision, [1] Terry v. Ohio, held that an officer may stop and detain a person he reasonably believes to be involved in criminal activity. Here, Sgt. Crowley answered a citizen's report of a possible burglary. Such reports are granted a presumption of reliability under the law, so Sgt. Crowley was on solid ground in approaching the home and, upon seeing a man inside who matched the description provided by the witness, asking him for his identification. A police officer responding to such a report must, for his own safety, assume the report to be accurate until he can satisfy himself that it isn't. The cop who blithely handles every call assuming it to be a false alarm will likely not survive to handle many of them. In fact, many police officers faced with the identical facts would likely have ordered Henry Gates out of the home at gunpoint.

Sgt. Crowley did not go so far as that (imagine the furor if he had), but he exercised a measure of caution by following Gates into the home as Gates retrieved his identification.
 

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