if you owned an NFL Franchise-

[MikeB]

'06, '08, '09, '10

3 AFCCG, 1 2nd rd loss...All with terrible QB play

The next time someone mans a defense and accomplishes that in a 5 year period, bump this thread and let me know. Considering the way the game is going it is probably never going to happen again.

06- second year with Baltimore
08- fourth year with Baltimore (one of the greatest defenses (talent wise) ever assembled)
09- first year with JETS
10- second year wih JETS

Other than 08 with one of the greatest group of individual play makers ever assembled, where am I wrong?

 

[MikeB]

3rd year with Balt

3,4,5, & 6 years with JETS......make all the excuses you want (lack of this players, lack of a certain position, injury, whatever every other team has to deal with every year...), where am I wrong?
What has he done all of these years? These have all come once the "newness" has worn off and his division has figured him out.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Think you are hardcore underrating how hard it is to win in the NFL w/o consistent offense/QB play. To do so 4x in 5 years is a lot harder than you think....

Even Belichick did shit w/o Brady in Cle (as many posters on this board loovvvvvve to pointout)

 

[PatsFan1283]

3rd year with Balt

3,4,5, & 6 years with JETS......make all the excuses you want (lack of this players, lack of a certain position, injury, whatever every other team has to deal with every year...), where am I wrong?

I said where I think you are wrong in post #40. I don't think a "few years" narrative has any basis in reality. You can either coach or you can't, you might wear out your welcome eventually as players stop buying in when losing starts but your abilities don't change. There is nothing I could comeup with that would lead me to believe someone would be a good coach for 2 years and then not a good coach after we get past the 2 year mark.

I wouldn't even know how to begin to understand something like that, that is why I asked what you think doesn't work that previously worked.

 

[MikeB]

He has only been with a team after a few years twice in his entire career. The Jets, a team with no QB and no offense have struggled the last few years, as do most teams with no QB over a large sample in the NFL. Why would he be immune to that?

You are the one pushing the "few years" narrative that I've never even heard anyone say before. What do you think in his skillset doesn't work after a few years that works the first few years? The schemes? Motivational factors?

What is the reason his ability to coach defenses regresses as time goes on in your opinion? I really don't view coaches or players like that, just pretty much on what I think their ability is, so obviously I have no clue.

My point is that he seems to get exposed after a couple of years with the same team in the same division. Teams figure out maybe his schemes and/or tendencies. His motivational abilities go to shit. You can see the players don't buy into the "Rex Ryan" way. As a whole the effort level diminishes. He doesn't get as much out of his players.

My claim is very accurate except for in '08 which was an anomaly only because of the overwhelming talent placed at his feet.

 

[PatsFan1283]

3rd year with Balt

3,4,5, & 6 years with JETS......make all the excuses you want (lack of this players, lack of a certain position, injury, whatever every other team has to deal with every year...), where am I wrong?
What has he done all of these years? These have all come once the "newness" has worn off and his division has figured him out.

The "newness" wearing off. Yeah thats pretty much just some narrative I can't quantify. It could be true, no clue. I have Rex rated as a pretty good DC based on the available info I have but that could be wrong too. Apparently others ITT do as well.

That is a term I'll have to look for on PFF or FO.

 

[Bourn]

If I owned an NFL Team I would offer bonuses to any of my players who pee'd all over Sean Payton and a Ferarri for any player who took a dump on the Saints logo in the middle of the field during a game. Just sayin'.

 

[MikeB]

I said where I think you are wrong in post #40. I don't think a "few years" narrative has any basis in reality. You can either coach or you can't, you might wear out your welcome eventually as players stop buying in when losing starts but your abilities don't change. There is nothing I could comeup with that would lead me to believe someone would be a good coach for 2 years and then not a good coach after we get past the 2 year mark.

I wouldn't even know how to begin to understand something like that, that is why I asked what you think doesn't work that previously worked.

I'm not convinced he is a "good coach" the first two years. I think he probably comes up with schemes and techniques that his division has not seen firsthand twice a year. It takes a little while to figure it out, then gameplan. Once that happens.....ouch

As far as the motivation with the players.....the same thing. They figure him out and stop buying in. Granted, losing games doesn't help with that, but it all ties in.

 

[PatsFan1283]

My point is that he seems to get exposed after a couple of years with the same team in the same division. Teams figure out maybe his schemes and/or tendencies. His motivational abilities go to shit. You can see the players don't buy into the "Rex Ryan" way. As a whole the effort level diminishes. He doesn't get as much out of his players.

My claim is very accurate except for in '08 which was an anomaly only because of the overwhelming talent placed at his feet.

The effort thing is possible I guess. No clue....I almost feel like I'd have to be in the locker room or know him personally to concede something like that

Mostly what you are doing is taking the results of a small sample size and jumping to a conclusion. Does his coaching "wear off" I guess it is possible.

What I know about football would tell me that the more likely answer is winning with shitty QB play is really, really hard in the NFL and anyone is going to regress or have limited success over a large sample when saddled with bad QB play.

You could obviously make a good case that he coached well last year when the Jets went 8-8 with some of the worst QB play in the league.

 

[PatsFan1283]

I'm not convinced he is a "good coach" the first two years. I think he probably comes up with schemes and techniques that his division has not seen firsthand twice a year. It takes a little while to figure it out, then gameplan. Once that happens.....ouch

As far as the motivation with the players.....the same thing. They figure him out and stop buying in. Granted, losing games doesn't help with that, but it all ties in.

I do think there is truth to that. NE handled a lot of those schemes much easier as time went on but a lot of factors were at play. Revis was by far the Jets best defensive player and once he was gone they become ordinary pretty fast. Similar to how NE was pretty mediocre defensively from '08-13 (save for when they had Talib in the lineup) and now that they have Revis their D is way better. You need talent to win obviously.

 

[Bourn]

Are y'all actually debating if Rex Ryan sucks or not?

 

[MikeB]

The effort thing is possible I guess. No clue....I almost feel like I'd have to be in the locker room or know him personally to concede something like that

Mostly what you are doing is taking the results of a small sample size and jumping to a conclusion. Does his coaching "wear off" I guess it is possible.

What I know about football would tell me that the more likely answer is winning with shitty QB play is really, really hard in the NFL and anyone is going to regress or have limited success over a large sample when saddled with bad QB play.

You could obviously make a good case that he coached well last year when the Jets went 8-8 with some of the worst QB play in the league.

I'm not talking about effort in the locker room or knowing him personally. When the players are givng up on plays on the field, not pursuing like they do when winning, dumb penalties, not really rallying around a leader (usually a QB)....

Secondly, I am only using the "sample size" given. Isn't that he same sample size you are using? The one that has been provided till this point?

 

[PatsFan1283]

This is the most I'm ever going to talk about Rex Ryan for the rest of my life so a few more points....

1. The '06 Ravens D was way better than '08, that team was stacked and if they didn't have McNair's corpse at QB they would've won the superbowl that year. Indy at the peak of Manning's powers couldn't even get in the end zone once again them in that divisional game.

2. Rex defensive style is much more fun to watch than what most teams do. All these Ds now are so scared of being aggressive, they just wanna sit back in zone coverage, hope they can bend but not break, get some front 4 pressure and force a few TOs.

They blitz, they try to confuse the QB, attack him both physically and mentally. It is just a refreshing way to watch the game be played in an era where pretty much everyone does the same things and is scared of giving up a 75 yard TD by taking chances.

 

[MikeB]

Are y'all actually debating if Rex Ryan sucks or not?

Yes and yes....haha

I actually like these conversations with Pats.

 

[PatsFan1283]

I'm not talking about effort in the locker room or knowing him personally. When the players are givng up on plays on the field, not pursuing like they do when winning, dumb penalties, not really rallying around a leader (usually a QB)....

Secondly, I am only using the "sample size" given. Isn't that he same sample size you are using? The one that has been provided till this point?

Hmm not sure I can explain this a better way but you can't just take a small sample and jump to a conclusion "Oh he loses his players after a few years" I mean you can, I just wouldn't do it.

A lot goes into a team being good over a 6 or 7 year period and over a sample size of 1 I just wouldn't make that assessment. I think it moreso has to do with a lack of talent on the offensive side of the ball. Just really tough to fade that in the modern game. Look at SF this year, inconsistent QB play finally caughtup to them.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Yes and yes....haha

I actually like these conversations with Pats.

Sons of Anarchy is 80 mins but if you watch it in real time thats 2 hours and tons of commercials so F that. I'm just killing some time so I can watch it commercial free.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Coaching is way tougher to evaluate than players though. Like I personally think Pete Carroll is a moron but the Seahawks are stacked and having success so it is tough to want to argue something like that. Just have to live in a world where people think he is a top 5 NFL coach.

So much of coaching success comes down to circumstance/talent.

 

[MikeB]

Coaching is way tougher to evaluate than players though. Like I personally think Pete Carroll is a moron but the Seahawks are stacked and having success so it is tough to want to argue something like that. Just have to live in a world where people think he is a top 5 NFL coach.

So much of coaching success comes down to circumstance/talent.

It's more than circumstances/talent.
A coach has to make the circumstances by assembling his players correctly and making the right calls at the right time along with an overall plan for both a particular game and season.
As far as the talent goes, the coach needs to figure out how to motivate and get the most out of them.

That all falls on the coach. There are talented teams that suck (take Rob Ryan's Defense). Conversely there have been a lot of teams decimated with injuries who have overachieved.

 

[OneZero]

Rex Ryan can't draft and can't coach offensively, as well as, improve anyone on the offensive side of the ball. Has any player actually improved from the following year (especially the ones he's drafted)? I cannot think of one offensive player.

 

[NickPappagiorgio]

Are y'all actually debating if Rex Ryan sucks or not?

Many years ago everyone thought that Pete Carrol was a shitty coach too.