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Breaking Bad Snob
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Mountains and mountains of evidence? Are you high on crack?

Where are the mountains and mountains of transitional fossil forms?

Should We Expect To Find Transitional Forms In The Fossil Record?

by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

A favorite argument of creationists has always been the lack of transitional organisms preserved in the fossil record. The argument goes like this: If one basic type of animal evolved into another basic type, it must have passed through "in between" stages, or transitional forms. Whether or not these transitions were ever preserved as fossils, they must have existed. In fact, they must have existed by the trillions.
Consider an evolutionary favorite—the evolution of a four-legged land animal (variously described as cow-like or wolf-like), into a whale. Surely this incredible transition couldn't take place in just a few steps—legs into flippers, fur into oily skin, etc. Where are the transitional forms?
Evolutionists sometimes brag that they have abundant evidence of transitions, but when pressed, the examples are almost always minor variations within a category, as expected within creation thinking, and thus certainly not proof of evolution.
In general, evolutionists are quick to admit the almost complete lack of transitional fossils. In fact, many of the current leaders in evolutionary thought have made their careers attempting to explain this lack by proposing that evolution of isolated groups went so rapidly in the past that no individuals of the in-between forms were fossilized. Why should we expect to find fossils of organisms which existed only for a short time? Furthermore, they point out that fossilization rarely occurs today. It usually takes massive flooding and rapid burial.
But then a new question arises. How complete is the fossil record? Can we legitimately expect to find these transitions?
Dr. Michael Denton, an agnostic but a decided non-evolutionist compiled a chart on "The Adequacy of the Fossil Record" in his book, Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by comparing the number of living types to fossil types, gleaning information from Romer's classic book, Vertebrate Paleontology. He found that 97.7% of living orders of terrestrial vertebrates are found as fossils. (Orders are larger groupings of families which are larger than genera which are larger then species.) Many creationists consider the groupings family or genus to best approximates the Genesis kind. Of living families of terrestrial vertebrates, 79.1% are represented, a number which jumps to 87.8% if birds (hardly ever preserved) are excluded. Thus, the fossil record of even terrestrial vertebrates is seen to be remarkably complete.
But far less than 1% of all fossils are terrestrial vertebrates. Approximately 95% are marine invertebrates, with the rest being mostly plants, fish, and insects. Land fossils are notoriously scarce, and when found are usually fragmentary. With partial evidence an evolutionary story can sometimes be told.
When we look at the invertebrates, we see separate and distinct categories (i.e., clams, corals, trilobites, etc.) existing in the earliest strata with no hint of ancestors or of intermediates. We find clams by the trillions, with a lot of variety among them, but no evolution. Furthermore, we have no idea how vertebrate fish could have arisen from any invertebrate. Where there are good data, we see no evolution. Where the data are scanty, evolutionists can tell a story. The fossil record is voluminous and apparently substantially complete. Yet no evolution is seen.
Speaking of this issue, Darwin wrote in an 1881 letter that "the case at present must remain inexplicable and may be truly argued as a valid argument against the views here entertained." Evolution—a theory of change without any evidence of change.


John D. Morris (born 1946) is an American, young earth creationist. He is the son of "the father of creation science", Henry M. Morris, and the president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR).

Morris has a B.S. in Civil Engineering and an M.S. and Ph.D. in Geological Engineering. From 1978-1980, he was a research assistant and from 1980-1984, he was an assistant professor of Geological Engineering at the University of Oklahoma.

Morris speaks at a variety of churches, is an author, and serves as a professor of Earth Science and Apologetics at San Diego Christian College.

You are kicking your own ass.
 

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In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.​

Right, I'm just saying that I don't think it applies here, because they really have these beliefs (as far-fetched as they seem to us) and they are supporting them.
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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Right, I'm just saying that I don't think it applies here, because they really have these beliefs (as far-fetched as they seem to us) and they are supporting them.

I've seen multiple definitions. Here is one that applies to how I'm using it:

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon first identified by Leon Festinger. It occurs when there is a discrepancy between what a person believes, knows and values, and persuasive information that calls these into question.

Either way, it's not that big of a deal.

FYI, I don't believe Joe C believes much, if any, of what he posts. He is a troll, nothing more and nothing less. That is why I choose not to engage him in debate.
 

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I've seen multiple definitions. Here is one that applies to how I'm using it:

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon first identified by Leon Festinger. It occurs when there is a discrepancy between what a person believes, knows and values, and persuasive information that calls these into question.​

Either way, it's not that big of a deal.

FYI, I don't believe Joe C believes much, if any, of what he posts. He is a troll, nothing more and nothing less. That is why I choose not to engage him in debate.


Ahh, I had not seen that definition. As a Psychology major, you would think I would know this stuff lol. I agree that Joe C. generally is only trolling, but I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, in this case maybe the benefit of the doubt would be to assume he's joking :)
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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DEAC smartly notes: FYI, I don't believe Joe C believes much, if any, of what he posts. He is a troll, nothing more and nothing less. That is why I choose not to engage him in debate.

SH: Nice catch. In my almost four years fraternizing here at our friendly PoliticoPub I've read posts from Mark one day that utterly contradict posts he made as recently as just a few weeks previous.
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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DEAC smartly notes: FYI, I don't believe Joe C believes much, if any, of what he posts. He is a troll, nothing more and nothing less. That is why I choose not to engage him in debate.

SH: Nice catch. In my almost four years fraternizing here at our friendly PoliticoPub I've read posts from Mark one day that utterly contradict posts he made as recently as just a few weeks previous.

I observed the exact same thing. Strangely enough, it was in a thread similar to this one several years ago. For like 15 pages he cut and pasted items that supported a belief in YEC. Then, several months later, he was "debating" someone else and pasted in something he was using to support his arguement that made reference to "millions of years ago" or something to that effect. That was when my suspicions were confirmed.

Not to mention that he initially claimed to be from Canada, but kept forgetting to mask his posts to perpetuate that lie.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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MARK L (aka JoeC) is a resident of my home state of Texas, though exactly where I haven't been told (by the RxMod who can easily see this info based on his IP address).

I personally prefer to believe that in one of life's more funny ironies, he's living within one square mile of fellow forum denizen DOC MERCER and that they periodically pass each other at the local 7-11 without even realizing it.
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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:lolBIG:

I wonder what his motivation was for lying about being from Canada.
 
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John D. Morris (born 1946) is an American, young earth creationist. He is the son of "the father of creation science", Henry M. Morris, and the president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR).

Morris has a B.S. in Civil Engineering and an M.S. and Ph.D. in Geological Engineering. From 1978-1980, he was a research assistant and from 1980-1984, he was an assistant professor of Geological Engineering at the University of Oklahoma.

Morris speaks at a variety of churches, is an author, and serves as a professor of Earth Science and Apologetics at San Diego Christian College.

You are kicking your own ass.

I am not kicking my own ass at all. Have you ever had a course in
critical thinking and argumentation?
 

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I think that is about right. And if we don't kill ourselves (completely possible) or run into some cosmic castrophe such as getting smacked by a mile + long asteriod, the sun will eventually burn out and make the entire planet uninhabitable.
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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I am not kicking my own ass at all. Have you ever had a course in
critical thinking and argumentation?

Nope. If you did, you should seek an immediate refund.

Posting an article or whatever it was by John Morris to attempt to debunk transitionals is almost as funny as your list of Oceanographers who question Evolution.

What are Morris's credentials? Geological Engineering? You're serious with this?

Here, chew on this list of transitionals:

Contents

PART I has FISHES TO FIRST MAMMALS & BIRDS:
  1. Introduction:
    1. Types of transitions
    2. Why are there gaps?
    3. Predictions of creationism & evolution
    4. What's in this FAQ
    5. Timescale
  2. Transitions from primitive fish to sharks, skates, rays
  3. Transitions from primitive fish to bony fish
  4. Transition from fishes to first amphibians
  5. Transitions among amphibians
  6. Transition from amphibians to first reptiles
  7. Transitions among reptiles
  8. Transition from reptiles to first mammals (long)
  9. Transition from reptiles to first birds
PART 2 has transitions among mammals (starting with primates), including numerous species-to-species transitions, discussion, and references. If you're particularly interested in humans, skip to the primate section of part 2, and also look up the fossil hominid FAQ.
  1. Overview of the Cenozoic
  2. Primates
  3. Bats
  4. Carnivores
  5. Rodents
  6. Lagomorphs (rabbits & hares)
  7. Condylarths (first hoofed animals)
  8. Cetaceans (whales & dolphins)
  9. Perissodactyls (horses, rhinos, tapirs)
  10. Elephants
  11. Sirenians (dugongs & manatees)
  12. Artiodactyls (pigs, hippos, deer, giraffes, cows, etc.)
  13. Species transitions from other miscellaneous mammal groups
  14. Conclusion:
    • A bit of historical background
    • The major features of the fossil record
    • Good models & bad models: which theories match the data best?
    • The main point.
  15. References
<!-- begin trailer -->
 

2009 RX Death Pool Champion
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I think that is about right. And if we don't kill ourselves (completely possible) or run into some cosmic castrophe such as getting smacked by a mile + long asteriod, the sun will eventually burn out and make the entire planet uninhabitable.


is that what you think spammer?
 

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No one knows.

When will it end? No one knows that either.

Next question...
 

Breaking Bad Snob
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This is really going nowhere.

You deny transitionals exist, I provide an extensive list. Next you will say that they aren't actually transitionals or something equally insane.

I've made the points I wanted to make. My intention was not to change your mind, because I knew that wouldn't happen. However, maybe there is someone out there reading this who is on the fence and perhaps I succeeded in swaying them away from mythology and superstition and toward logic and science.

Good day, sir.
 

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However, maybe there is someone out there reading this who is on the fence and perhaps I succeeded in swaying them away from mythology and superstition and toward logic and science

And what point would that serve? If you have all the answers and people who hold an alternative position are idiots, why not keep them all in the dark so you can continue to look down your nose and laugh at them all night? Dont you want to continue to be one of the most intelligent degenerates on an internet gambling board?
 

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I think that is about right. And if we don't kill ourselves (completely possible) or run into some cosmic castrophe such as getting smacked by a mile + long asteriod, the sun will eventually burn out and make the entire planet uninhabitable.
Nah, we'll be very advanced by then, we'll just travel to another place in the galexy. If we can not blow ourselves up in the next 100 years, we'll be fine.
 
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This is really going nowhere.

You deny transitionals exist, I provide an extensive list. Next you will say that they aren't actually transitionals or something equally insane.

I've made the points I wanted to make. My intention was not to change your mind, because I knew that wouldn't happen. However, maybe there is someone out there reading this who is on the fence and perhaps I succeeded in swaying them away from mythology and superstition and toward logic and science.

Good day, sir.

How ironic, my point in posting too... Hoping that someone
indoctrinated with the fairy tale of the religion of evolution will see that there is a rational and logical alternative.

Good day to you too.


Darwin is liked by evolutionists because he liberated science from the straitjacket of observation and opened the door to storytellers. This gave professional evolutionists job security so they can wander through biology labs as if they belong there.
--- David Coppedge





 
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td valign="top" width="100%">
<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"> “Documented” Transitional Forms?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

</td></tr><tr><td align="right">Printer version | Email this article </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> The cover of the March 1-7, 2008 issue of New Scientist pictures an illustrator’s attempt at drawing a half fish, half reptilian creature. Above the illustration is the title: “Amazing Missing Links: Creatures that Reveal the Real Power of Evolution.” Allegedly, evolutionists “have abundant evidence for how all the major groups of animals are related, much of it in the form of excellent transitional fossils” (Prothero, 2008, 197[2645]:35). After his introductory comments, the author, Donald Prothero, listed several alleged transitional fossils, which supposedly “are conclusive proof that evolution has occurred, and is still occurring” (p. 41). Included in this list were a variety of animals—from velvet worms to dinosaurs, and giraffes to manatees. Readers, however, have to go no further than Prothero’s introduction to see the inaccuracy of his assertions.
Prothero introduced his list of transitional forms, that supposedly prove evolution, with two examples that science dealt a crushing blow to long ago. Prothero wrote: “Darwin’s 1859 prediction that transitional forms would be found was quickly confirmed. In 1861 the first specimen of Archaeopteryx—a classic transitional form between dinosaurs and birds—was discovered, and in the 1870s the iconic sequence of fossil horses was documented” (p. 35, emp. added). Of the alleged “numerous fossils and fossil sequences showing evolutionary change,” Prothero chose to begin his article with Archaeopteryx and the “sequence of horse fossils,” both of which are supposedly “documented” proof of evolution. In truth, Archaeopteryx and the horse family tree do not even come close to confirming evolution.
Regarding horse evolution, the fossil record simply does not bear out what New Scientist writer Prothero claimed. In fact, due to the severe lack of fossil evidence linking the various horse “family members” together, even prominent evolutionists have abandoned the “horse evolution” argument. Prothero claimed that as far back as “the 1870s the iconic sequence of fossil horses was documented” (p. 35). Since that time, however, evolutionists such as Dr. George Gaylord Simpson have admitted, “The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature” (Simpson, 1953, p. 125, emp. added). In a 2000 article that appeared in the journal Natural History, Dr. Stephen Jay Gould criticized science textbooks’ use of misinformation surrounding the evolution of horses. He wrote:
Once ensconced in textbooks, misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent, because, as stated above, textbooks copy from previous texts. (I have written two essays on this lamentable practice: one on the amusingly perennial description of the eohippus, or “dawn horse,” as the size of a fox terrier, even though most authors, including yours truly, have no idea of the dimensions or appearance of this breed...) [2000, 109[2]:45, emp. added].
In light of such statements by renowned evolutionists, one wonders how Prothero can be so confident that the evolution of horses was documented by fossils as far back as the 1870s. Is Prothero’s article just another example of how “misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent” in many evolutionary writings?
And what about Archaeopteryx? Is it a “confirmed” transitional form, as Prothero asserted? Simply because Archaeopteryx has teeth in its beak and claws on its wings, does not prove that it was the transitional form between reptiles and birds. Consider that some modern birds have claws on their wings, and yet no one thinks of them as being missing links. The African bird known as touraco has claws on its wings, as does the hoatzin of South America when it is young. Both of these birds use their fully functional claws to grasp branches and climb trees. If you have ever seen an ostrich close up, you might have noticed that it, too, has claws on each wing and can use them if attacked. Obviously, simply because a bird in the fossil record is discovered with claws on its wings does not mean that it is a transitional fossil.
In 1993, Science News reported that an odd fossil bird had been unearthed in Mongolia. It supposedly is millions of years younger than Archaeopteryx and, interestingly, had teeth in its beak (Monasterky, 1993, 143:245). As with the claws on the wings of Archaeopteryx, evolutionists cannot prove that the presence of teeth make the animal something more than a bird. What’s more, consider that while most reptiles have teeth, turtles do not. And, some fish and amphibians have teeth, while other fish and amphibians have no teeth. How can evolutionists be so sure that Archaeopteryx’s teeth make it a dinosaur-bird link? Such an assertion is based on unprovable assumptions.
Archaeopteryx also had fully formed feathers, just like living birds. Fossils of Archaeopteryx leave no hint of the animal being a half-scaly/half-feathered creature. It was not in some kind of in-between stage. Furthermore, “[e]xperts don’t know what Archaeopteryx’s closest [alleged—EL] dinosaur ancestor looked like—fossils haven’t yet been found” (“Fossil Evidence,” 2007), i.e., evolutionists have been entirely unsuccessful in finding any actual transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds.
Finally, what makes the suggestion that Archaeopteryx was the missing link between reptiles and birds even more unbelievable is that “[a]nother bird fossil found in the desert of west Texas in 1983, Protoavis, is dated even earlier, 75 million years before Archaeopteryx” (DeYoung, 2000, p. 37, emp. added). Although some paleontologists have questions about the fossil remains of Protoavis (birds, after all, were not supposed to be around with the “earliest dinosaurs”), Dr. Chatterjee of Texas Tech University “has pointed out, the skull of Protoavis has 23 features that are fundamentally bird-like, as are the forelimbs, the shoulders, and the hip girdle” (Harrub and Thompson, 2001). In 1991, Science magazine ran a story titled, “Early Bird Threatens Archaeopteryx’s Perch,” wherein Alan Anderson wrote: “His [Chaterjee’s—EL] reconstruction also shows a flexible neck, large brain, binocular vision, and, crucially, portals running from the rear of the skull to the eye socket—a feature seen in modern birds but not dinosaurs” (253:35).
The fact is, the fossil record does not, in any way, demonstrate that dinosaurs evolved into birds or that horses evolved from little dog-like creatures. Ironically, although Prothero, writing for New Scientist, wrote that a “favourite lie” of creationists is ‘there are no transitional fossils’” (2008, 197[2645]:35), evolutionist Mark Ridley wrote an article for the same journal 27 years earlier and confessed that “no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation...” (1981, 90:832, emp. added).
REFERENCES
Anderson, Alan (1991), “Early Bird Threatens Archaeopteryx’s Perch,” Science, 253:35, July 5.
DeYoung, Don (2000), Dinosaurs and Creation (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).
“Fossil Evidence” (2007), NOVA, [On-line], URL: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/transitional.html.
Gould, Stephen Jay (2000), “Abscheulich! (Atrocious),” Natural History, 109[2]:42-50, March.
Harrub, Brad and Bert Thompson (2001), “Archaeopteryx, Archaeoraptor, and the ‘Dinosaurs-to-Birds’ Theory [Part 1],” [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/473.
Monastersky, Richard (1993), “A Clawed Wonder Unearthed in Mongolia,” Science News, 143:245, April 17.
Prothero, Donald (2008), “What Missing Link?” New Scientist, 197[2645]:35-41, March 1-7.
Ridley, Mark (1981), “Who Doubts Evolution?” New Scientist, June 25, 90:832.
Simpson, George Gaylord (1953), Life of the Past (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press).
 
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Nope. If you did, you should seek an immediate refund.

Posting an article or whatever it was by John Morris to attempt to debunk transitionals is almost as funny as your list of Oceanographers who question Evolution.

What are Morris's credentials? Geological Engineering? You're serious with this?

Here, chew on this list of transitionals:

Contents

PART I has FISHES TO FIRST MAMMALS & BIRDS:
  1. Introduction:
    1. Types of transitions
    2. Why are there gaps?
    3. Predictions of creationism & evolution
    4. What's in this FAQ
    5. Timescale
  2. Transitions from primitive fish to sharks, skates, rays
  3. Transitions from primitive fish to bony fish
  4. Transition from fishes to first amphibians
  5. Transitions among amphibians
  6. Transition from amphibians to first reptiles
  7. Transitions among reptiles
  8. Transition from reptiles to first mammals (long)
  9. Transition from reptiles to first birds
PART 2 has transitions among mammals (starting with primates), including numerous species-to-species transitions, discussion, and references. If you're particularly interested in humans, skip to the primate section of part 2, and also look up the fossil hominid FAQ.
  1. Overview of the Cenozoic
  2. Primates
  3. Bats
  4. Carnivores
  5. Rodents
  6. Lagomorphs (rabbits & hares)
  7. Condylarths (first hoofed animals)
  8. Cetaceans (whales & dolphins)
  9. Perissodactyls (horses, rhinos, tapirs)
  10. Elephants
  11. Sirenians (dugongs & manatees)
  12. Artiodactyls (pigs, hippos, deer, giraffes, cows, etc.)
  13. Species transitions from other miscellaneous mammal groups
  14. Conclusion:
    • A bit of historical background
    • The major features of the fossil record
    • Good models & bad models: which theories match the data best?
    • The main point.
  15. References
<!-- begin trailer -->

For those interested in further reading,

Talk.origins (where the above links are from) archive rebuttals:

http://www.trueorigin.org/
 

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