Curt Schilling - Hall of Fame??

[Journeyman]

Koufax got in on 6 good years. Pete has 3 Cys, 2 second places, a 3rd and 4th. F*er better get in and get in fast. If Smoltz or Biggio get in and he doesn't, I will go insane. Don f*ing Sutton, Gaylor Perry and Phil Niekro are in. God this drives me crazy.

I understand your point and your personal HOF criteria....the writers go for longevity and a very good player over greatness for a decade, of course Pedro was as great as any pitcher in MLB history basically.

Guys like Belle, JuanGone, Pedro ,Alomar vs guys like Biggio, Smoltz, Niekro, Sutton.

 

[TheRightSide]

fuck that it was a no last week and it's still a no this week.


Until Morris is in the Hall no pitcher should go in the next 5 years. (Clemens)

 

[t3a]

Ryan? Ryan couldn't even sniff Pedro's jock strap... IMO Nolan Ryan is the most overrated player in MLB history... and that may be a reach but people talk about this guy like he is an all time great... He almost has 300 loses for god sakes... he has only 32 more wins then loses in over 600 decisions... that is not greatness... He pitched for a long time and threw very very very hard and struck people out... Greatest strike out pitcher no doubt... but as great as people make him seem... Not in my mind...

Did you see any of his no-hitters? He had SEVEN of them, by the way.
He never played on very good teams, some of the Astros teams were decent but even then I think he led the league in ERA one year with them but had a losing record. Just focusing on Wins and Losses is a horrible way to compare pitchers, guys have no control over the run support they get or what their bullpen will do with leads.

1987 for Houston 211 innings pitched, only 154 hits , 2.76 ERA
8 wins 16 losses. Yea that was his fault for being overrated

 

[themanej2001]

Did you see any of his no-hitters? He had SEVEN of them, by the way.
He never played on very good teams, some of the Astros teams were decent but even then I think he led the league in ERA one year with them but had a losing record. Just focusing on Wins and Losses is a horrible way to compare pitchers, guys have no control over the run support they get or what their bullpen will do with leads.

Over a long period a time you would have to have the worst luck in the world to almost lose 300 games because of poor run support. When he was on he was the hardest pitcher in baseball to hit they say... hint the 7 no hitters.... I knew people would attack me for this statement but I truly think the guy was overrated...

Guy never won a Cy Young... Only finished in the top 3 3 times in his 25 year career... He had some great years but he was not consistent... and he almost lost 300 games... He was only a 52% winning pitcher... I am sorry but that isn't great to me... Wins and loses can not be the only way to judge anyone... But he has almost 300 loses and only 324 wins... His ERA is only .38 lower then the league average through his whole career... That is not great either... IMO

 

[t3a]

he was not consistent...

he would have had 21 straight years with 10 or more wins if not for that 1987 season. As it was, he had 20 of 21 years. That is consistency.

It doesnt matter, he has 320 wins and 7 no hitters.

Who can match that?

 

[BigPIG19]

no

 

[royboy_3831]

As of right now...

Schilling - no
Pedro - yes (Find it hard to believe one of the top 5 pitchers of this generation doesn't make it.)

 

[themanej2001]

he would have had 21 straight years with 10 or more wins if not for that 1987 season. As it was, he had 20 of 21 years. That is consistency.

It doesnt matter, he has 320 wins and 7 no hitters.

Who can match that?

You are ignoring the 300 loses almost... and 7 no hitters means nothing to me... it means you have incredible stuff and can be unhittable any given day...


And 10 or more wins is not consistency... 17 years of 15+ wins is consistency... Since when is 10 wins consistent?

 

[steaktartar]

If Pedro doesn't get in and get in quickly, I will never in my life visit the HOF or have another debate/discussion about it. IMO, he could retire tomorrow and should be first ballot. He was the most dominant pitcher since Bob Gibson and dominated for a long period of time. His league comparative ERA is the best of all time, average 10+ Ks/9IP, has a winning percentage of 69%+, more than 200 wins and fewer than 100 losses, 3000 Ks in 2650 IP, 2000 H and a WHIP of barely over 1. He has had an ERA of below 2.1 3 times, something only Clemens has done in the past 20 years, only Kevin Brown (once) and Maddux (twice) have done it since 1985.

I said it the other day and I will say it again, dude is a modern day Koufax, anyone who doesn't recognize that doesn't recognize his ass from his elbow.

agree 100% and i am not big fan but he was best pitcher in the game for about 8 years amazing stats...........modern day koufax good analogy

 

[VIEJODINOSAUR]

You are ignoring the 300 loses almost... and 7 no hitters means nothing to me... it means you have incredible stuff and can be unhittable any given day...


And 10 or more wins is not consistency... 17 years of 15+ wins is consistency... Since when is 10 wins consistent?

Any idiot can read stats and twist them around...fact is that you have never seen him play...seven no-hitters is a feat in itself and if you ever saw him pitch he was more dominant than Gaylord Perry, Niekro, or Don Sutton who are all in the Hall Of Fame...sometimes I wonder about you EJ...:discuss:

 

[steaktartar]

Ryan? Ryan couldn't even sniff Pedro's jock strap... IMO Nolan Ryan is the most overrated player in MLB history... and that may be a reach but people talk about this guy like he is an all time great... He almost has 300 loses for god sakes... he has only 32 more wins then loses in over 600 decisions... that is not greatness... He pitched for a long time and threw very very very hard and struck people out... Greatest strike out pitcher no doubt... but as great as people make him seem... Not in my mind...

Pedro absolutely yes

Schilling no... He is behind Pedro, Mussina, Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Hoffman, Rivera, Clemens, Randy Johnson.... That is 7 guys right there in front of him... Personally don't think he has a chance

RYAN was the most dominating pitcher of my lifetime i saw gibson up to the present..........the angel teams of the early 70's ryan would be 17-17 era 2.34.........impossible to win games when you have winston llenas bob oliver bruce bochte and vada pinson as your lineup..........he was beyond remarkable..........he never got run support even when he went to better astro teams just one of those guys that the team always figured we will be close i guess no need to score alot he was very unlucky in that respect.............i saw 3 of his no hitters in person all i can tell you is no one had his stuff..............his curve really developed later in life.....scary how good he was if you saw him in person

 

[wilheim]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to say Ryan is not deserving to be in the HOF is wrong. Sure he had a lot of losses.

Trivia what pitcher has the most losses in baseball history.


Answer - Cy Young.

You pitch long enough you will get a lot of losses, it's the nature of the game.



wil..

 

[The_Man]

mike mussina in the hall of fame? now thats a fvckin jokelol.

 

[Journeyman]

Oh my....Nolan Ryan is without question a HOFer!

He is slightly overrated IMHO...but is by far one of the alltime greats of the game.

Some facts -he never pitched a 9 inning game without walking atleast one batter, that is remarkable, considering how long he pitched....

Wins a world series in 1969 and never gets back to the series.

5,714 K's - 61 shutouts-

He started in MLB in 1966 , finished in 1993! (think about that for a second)

Pitched that long and had a career ERA of just 3.19

7 no hitters, no one else is close to that feat.

From '72-'79 he was with an Angels team that was usually at best an average team, they did win the old AL West in 1979. 19-22-21-17-19-16 all very good to great seasons for a weak team.

In the 80's he was mainly with the Astros another mediocre team for the most part, he never had the real high win total seasons with Hou, in fact one year he was 8-16 but his ERA was just 2.76.

Then in the 90's he came back to the AL with Tex , on yet another avg team...as he got older he got better, he was tremendous after age 40.

He was simply the most productive 40+ year old athlete in history to that point and maybe even still today.

At 44, he finished fifth in the league in ERA (2.91) and third in strikeouts (203)

What amazed me the most about Ryan was how he could still bring it well into his 40's and in the 8th 9th innings he was still firing in the upper 90's...

Simply put, he had one of the best right arms ever created.

 

[themanej2001]

Want to clarify I never said he didn't belong in the HOF... I said he is the most overrated player in baseball IMO

 

[Rev_Al]

Jayson Stark was on ESPN earlier today...stating the most underrated / Overratted pitchers...

and he made a very good case that Nolan Ryan was the most overrated pitcher in hostory...best strikeout pitcher of all time, but being a 'pitcher' he is def. overrated.

Pretty good segment...if you guys havent seen it yet.

 

[themanej2001]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to say Ryan is not deserving to be in the HOF is wrong. Sure he had a lot of losses.

Trivia what pitcher has the most losses in baseball history.


Answer - Cy Young.

You pitch long enough you will get a lot of losses, it's the nature of the game.



wil..

Ryan almost passed Cy Young for the most loses in baseball... the difference is Cy Young had nearly 200 more victories then Nolan Ryan...

 

[fhmesq44]

Want to clarify I never said he didn't belong in the HOF... I said he is the most overrated player in baseball IMO

I tend to agree. Great, yes, HOF, yes, remarkable career and longevity, yes, doesn't mean he can't also be over-rated. Many people place him VERY high on the list of greatest pitchers ever. Much higher than he deserves to be IMO. Say what you want about his teams being average or poor causing him to have many losses, the dude walked 4.5 batters/9 IP. That isn't helping anyone's cause. While his teams were pretty poor the first few years he was with LAA, they weren't bad from about 77-90. The Astros were a good team for his entire tenure there.

I could probably (easily) come up with 20 guys that I consider better than him and would prefer to have if I were starting a pitching staff.

 

[Journeyman]

As I said above and have said many times , I think Ryan is somewhat overrated...he was an iconic legend none the less...Maybe I realized he was a little overrated because I always saw him lose to the Orioles who owned him...his career record vs Balto was awful...and light hitting Mark Belanger of all people killed Ryan.

 

[themanej2001]

He had a ton of loses. Plenty of pitchers pitched on awful teams and didn't have a win % of 52%

Billy Pierce is the first one that comes to mind... The guy pitched on the worst hitting team in baseball for 13 years and still won 211 games and had a win% at 55...

And those White Sox teams were much worse then his teams...


As I said is the thing that sticks out most to me is the .38 that his ERA was lower then the leagues average throughout his whole career... That is minuscule for a guy with his stuff and a guy that was so dominant... That is nothing... I would be willing to bet that it is possible that is the lowest difference of any pitcher in the HOF... I am not positive but when you look at others you say full runs lower...

I mean someone said he was the most dominating pitcher they ever saw??? What about Pedro Martinez whose career ERA is nearly 2 points below the league averages... or Rogers that is nearly a run and a half below the average of his generation....