Collusion/Cheating at PartyPoker

John_Kerry · Sep 17, 2004

Theswami,

I am sure it is a samll percentage. I would guess 10%.

Howard Lederer loses sometimes and he is a pro. I am sure he is better than anyone posting at this board without a doubt, but he still loses at times. No matter what its a gamble, its a game you can lose and if you throw in cheating its just that much harder.

My original post was mainly aimed at the 90% of players who are drawn to online poker and will be lucky just to break even when you consider the rake. It is just a warning that you have a lot more to overcome than just the rake.

Not to be an asshole, but to me saying it is OK to be cheated would be a lot like the casinos saying that they dont care if they get cheated. After all its only going to be a small percentage of players, and the casino is still going to be making money. The casino operates like a professional business and will not allow itself to be cheated at all.

gap1974 · Sep 17, 2004

John_Kerry:

Let's say that you're the owner of Bellagio, and you're evaluating your blackjack profits. You know that there are a few people out there that will be able to "cheat" you out of winnings by counting cards, no matter what you precautions you take. Does that mean that you decide to stop offering blackjack? Of course not! There's so much money to be made on the other players that you will keep offering it...of course, you will take precautions to avoid card-counters, but you have to tolerate some in order to make money.

This analogy is how I (and many others) view online poker. There will be cheaters out there, but there are enough fish to make the whole online experience profitable (sometimes very profitable).

As for your assertion that "everyone online thinks they are good", that is ridiculous. Most people are there for fun, i.e. to gamble, just like playing slot machines and/or table games in casinos. Plus, poker is a more social form of gambling than most, and it is a pop-culture phenomenon right now, so there are tons of new players (i.e. easy money) entering both online and brick'n'mortar card rooms.

Finally, since you're original post was about players new to the game of poker, I will say that they probably don't need to worry about cheaters that much. First, they will probably be playing low limits, and it is just not worth the time for a cheating syndicate to be "hitting" a $1-2 or $2-4 game!

Second, even if cheaters do hit their table, it might lower their expected hourly rate from minus $20 to minus $22 per hour. This will hardly be noticeable. The amount of money saved on the rake versus a brick'n'mortar club will probably be more than anything lose to cheaters. For example, in California (where I play), clubs must take a flat rake, and most take $3-$4 per hand. That means for a $19 pot, you pay $4 in rake, netting you $15. Online, most card rooms will take about 50 cents for that same pot. That is a huge advantage, much more than any losses to cheaters could mean.

I would definitely say for experts as well as beginners, the advantages of online casinos are huge. Just be aware that there are going to be cheaters, and know what to watch for. If you have any feeling what so ever that there is cheating at your table, then get up and go to a new table! There are probably about 20,000 to choose from with all the online poker rooms!

gap1974 · Sep 17, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John_Kerry:
Not to be an asshole, but to me saying it is OK to be cheated would be a lot like the casinos saying that they dont care if they get cheated. After all its only going to be a small percentage of players, and the casino is still going to be making money. The casino operates like a professional business and will not allow itself to be cheated at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I missed this paragraph in your post...the casinos are cheated every day! Of course, they take precautions to stop from being cheated, but they can't stop 100% of cheating (I don't like calling card-counting cheating, because it's not, but for the purpose of this discussion I will). They just know they will make it back on the other players. If they suspect someone is cheating, they will ask that person to leave. You can do that same thing online by a) reporting the play to the card room and b) finding another table to play at.

John_Kerry · Sep 19, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gap1974:
John_Kerry:

As for your assertion that "everyone online thinks they are good", that is ridiculous. Most people are there for fun, i.e. to gamble, just like playing slot machines and/or table games in casinos. Plus, poker is a more social form of gambling than most, and it is a pop-culture phenomenon right now, so there are tons of new players (i.e. easy money) entering both online and brick'n'mortar card rooms.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can play for free and have fun. You will not find hardly anyone who opens an account and sends hard earned money and thinks he is a bad player. Well over 99% of players think they are good. Just read this thread, virtually everyone is so good that they dont even have to worry about being cheated. So what if I get cheated - I will make $100,000,000,000,000 this week instead of $100,000,000,100,000. Big deal.

There is a thread on this over across the street, and it is even more entertaining than this one. Over there we have a guy who made his first million dollars playing poker by the age of 25 ( He was later busted for making numerous ID's and entering them all into a $50 free contest the site had going ), then we have a guy who wins EVERY time he plays poker ( he later ran away because he owed another guy at the site $25), next we have a guy who has made several hundered thousand dollars playing at party poker in less than 1 tear ( he later got very pissed because he lost a $100 free contest by a technicality, he was so mad he wanted to kill).

The thread was intentionally intended as a warning for the 95% + players who are going to struggle just to break even ( earn enough to cover losses + Rake). I failed to realize there were so many fish, and none of them happen to be at this site. If you think the people you refer to as "fish" also consider themselves mere "fish" and gladly let you take their paycheck every week just because they think its fun to lose money, you are sadly mistaken.

They are playing because they think they are just as big a poker god as tdogg thinks he is. When these "fish" lose they go post at whatever site they post at talking about how they just made $200,000,000,000,000,000,000 this week at Poker and how there are so many "fish" its easy for them to win.

T-Dogg1 · Sep 23, 2004

quote
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The thread was intentionally intended as a warning for the 95% + players who are going to struggle just to break even ( earn enough to cover losses + Rake). I failed to realize there were so many fish, and none of them happen to be at this site. If you think the people you refer to as "fish" also consider themselves mere "fish" and gladly let you take their paycheck every week just because they think its fun to lose money, you are sadly mistaken.

They are playing because they think they are just as big a poker god as tdogg thinks he is. When these "fish" lose they go post at whatever site they post at talking about how they just made $200,000,000,000,000,000,000 this week at Poker and how there are so many "fish" its easy for them to win.
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So I am a poker God now am I? This gets funnier by the minute. I think I gave you a clear indication of my skill level and what stakes and games I play. I keep careful notes. Calculate my expected take per hour and go from there.

Kerry if you think I lose at poker than more power to you. I told you I do good and earn steady money. This did not happen over night. I have put a lot of time and effort to become better and to see the fruits of it. I am not, nor every claimed to be rich from poker. I work a full time job and don't see myself quiting anytime soon.

It really comes down to you, a person who doesnt play online (by your own word-no assumption) warning others of the pitfalls of online poker.

You keep arguing that its dumb to play in a site where cheating exist. I agree and accept that there is cheating. But if my avg return on my money from 8 months of logs is $15-20 an hour are you REALLY saying that because I am not getting full value of $20-$25 an hour from totally clean games that its not worth doing? And that would be if I said cheating cost me 25% of my profit which is pretty high.

Again I am not arguing that you sit down at Joe's house on the weekend for 8 hours and 3 people cheat you. Its not the same thing. A great percentage of the time you will be in a clean game, lose an amount on a table or leave a cheated one or any number of events that make the overall cheating aspect insignificant. Not saying not real. Saying insignificant.

If a person is not a very good poker player they are losing their money far faster from other things. No I can't beat Howard Lederer or any number of pros long term. But I do know if I raise in position with a solid game, he will fold just like anyone else.

Stop using outrageous claims by nuts as proof of anything. Have I made any outrageous claims to you? I know some others on this site who do well at poker does MAtt24 sound like a moron? Could it be that we possibly have something real to offer on a forum geared for us all to be successful? It sounds a lot like a line from one of my favorite movie The Five Heartbeats, "I ain't chit so you aint chit."

Lastly I am not trying to offend you when I say you are probably not a good poker player. Good poker players read. Good poker players have logs, notes or software that has tracked their play to find holes in their game. They may even own programs (like Wilson Software) designed to improve you in real game situations. Its not enough to say, "I fold more than most." If you do or have those things I apologize, if you don't I think that is part of the problem of you understanding my argument.

By the way pros don't agree with you on your argument on rake as juice or the number of "fish" in regards to a person who has read just "1" poker book. I tried to look back in some of my old mags of Card player magazine and when I find an article I'll post a link. Someone said it best above most people think poker is pure gambling and luck but don't harbor delusions of "poker ace".

theswami · Sep 23, 2004

John_Kerry said:
Theswami,

.....SNIP.......
Not to be an asshole, but to me saying it is OK to be cheated would be a lot like the casinos saying that they dont care if they get cheated. After all its only going to be a small percentage of players, and the casino is still going to be making money. The casino operates like a professional business and will not allow itself to be cheated at all.

John-

I never stated that it was OK to be cheated. I think it sucks and I report it every time I see it along with angle shots like intentional all-ins. My position is that I know for a fact that I have been cheated in a few games and it is likely that I was cheated in a few others that were more cleaverly disguised but given the alternative, it is worth it. The alternative is that I drive to AC to play legally or play in an underground club illegally in NYC (for purposes of discussion, I don't count my home games or Rx games because I play them more to hang out and network rather than for pure competitive reasons).

Online poker allows me to play more often than I would otherwise. I do fairly well overall when I play so I don't mind KNOWING that I could be easily cheated if a pack decided to do so. There's little I can do to stop/control it other than to report suspicious behavior. Additionally, I trust that the site's security measures protect me to some degree. If you assume 10% (your #) of the games are cheated, I'll take my chances. In the end, if the games are still loose and my playing style has not changed yet I notice a change in my win patterns and start to lose or notice strange activity, I'll stop playing.

On the topic of winning players, a few guys posted here about folks beating online poker. Based on personal experience and the posting history of a couple of them, I'm inclined to believe what they say and you should as well. Most gamblers think they win and poker players are no different. With that said, I assure you that most online poker players are not 1/4 as sharp at poker as even the worst bookmaker is at making lines and running a book. This allows a relatively decent player to beat the games. In sportsbetting, you are playing against the house and against someone sets lines for a living with access to much more information than you. In poker you are likely playing against the average joe who depending on your experience, level of preparation, intelligence, skill, etc., you can outplay to make a profit.

You doubt the number of winning players but seriously, go to a casino or some of the softer online sites and watch the hands shown. It is quite funny that someone who plays any Ace to the river will think they can win long-term. It is funny to see them call a river bet when they have the nuts and ask them why didn't they raise and you hear, "because the pot was big enough." Guys call you all the way AND on the river with Ace-Two high eventhough you haven't bluffed since last year "just to keep you honest" when even a pair of twos or Ace with a better kicker will beat them. Personally, I don't play at a table (or don't stay too long) until there are at least 3 guys who think playing like that is a good idea.

Prior to 2002 a player couldn't practice table selection very well if he wanted to play often, now, it is very easy to do so you can play poker AND profit.