Collusion/Cheating at PartyPoker

theswami · Sep 14, 2004

From someone who has played online for years (before the WPT popularized poker) I can tell you with certainty that there is cheating AND collusion online. The certainty comes from a) being at a few tables where it was obviously occurring and b) being a witness to two players innocently sharing cards without the intent to cheat per se but more warning the other player to stop betting/raising/calling since he had better cards.

BUT

1) My GUESS is that it is not very prevalent given the number of games available (meaning a small % of games are cheated).

2) Some of the cheating I have seen was so obvious and poor that a) a good player could just wait for a great hand and let the guys raise the pot and b) the site immediately stopped it when called/emailed by the players at the table.

To sum it up:

1) Cheating/collusion exists but I do not think that it happens so frequently to turn a winning player into a losing one.

2) There are players beating online poker for a living. It may not last but currently folks do it.

3) Even for bad players the opportunity to play poker is worth the amount they lose.

4) For good players there is an opportunity to play and profit at your leisure.

5) It offers a cheap way to learn games and participate in tournaments that are unavailable locally or inconvenient to play.

I think online poker is great. Aside from the limit poker action I get and have played for years, I am cheaply learning to become a better NL player and learning how to play NL in tournaments which has been a great experience and profitable.

T-Dogg1 · Sep 14, 2004

I have heard these arguments forever and a day and always come away with the same conclusions.

1) I PLAY online, most who tell you not to don't or have not for very long. Its a little like, "Don't go see that movie, it sucks. No I haven't seen it but what does that matter? I heard!"

2) Most of the cheaters are small time, don't know how to do it and are easily detectable. Besides if you play in a full game it becomes even harder.

3) I WIN at Poker consistently. No I am not a genius. I play solid poker, in games I understand and at a high enough level. $5-10 limit, 30 & 50 SitnGo's & 3-6,5-10 7 card stud with a software counter. I also play multi tables and have done pretty well at those also.

4) If you are a good poker player you WILL make money. However poker is subject to the same variance as any other gambling. I don't expect to make money at every session. By far people lose more from "tilt", poor money management and flat out being a sucky player.

5) You play at least 5 times as many hands online versus bad players. You will experience horrible beats. Its just pure math. However I have taken absolutely horrible beats in brick and mortar too.

6) I play at Party and Ultimate their are plenty of fish, PLENTY. I use neteller. I make a cash withdrawal request, Party obliges most time the SAME day. Ultimate normally take a day.

Ultimately its up to you. A poker education is not expensive. A few books and a subscription to Card Player mag ($39 a year) are great steps to some significant extra cash.

GreenDoberman · Sep 14, 2004

The same people that whine about getting cheated when they lose are the same people that whine about the casino cheating them when they lose or complain that the player on third base took the dealer's "bust" card.

If people would take the time to educate themselves and learn the strategies and nuances of the game, they would be much more successful and their bitching and moaning would cease to a minimum.

Yes, there is cheating and collusion in poker, both online and live. And yes, there are people that will cheat to win.
Is it prevalent and widespread? NO. The simple fact is these people are usually not smart enough to win on the up and up and resort to cheating as a means of making up for their shortcoming.

In most cases, you see good players winning and bad players losing. Simple facts.

daringly · Sep 15, 2004

Inflated hands... PP makes its money from the rake. The more callers, the more they make. Assume in a "generic game", you should have a calling hand under the gun 10% of the time (I don't remember the exact statistics; I don't play poker any more). If hands were inflated, you'd recieve a calling hand 11% of the time.

RobFunk · Sep 15, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>miamiman- good players are the ones killing online poker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>100% correct. .the caliber of play is out of control. evryone folding bad cards. everyone folding when the odds are against them. everyone raising when the odds are with them. tough to find crappy players tossing out their money. i think the bad players get discouraged quickly and the good players spend oodles of time playing looking for good hits. the majority of players are good enough to not lose their shirt

theswami · Sep 15, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by daringly:
Inflated hands... PP makes its money from the rake. The more callers, the more they make. Assume in a "generic game", you should have a calling hand under the gun 10% of the time (I don't remember the exact statistics; I don't play poker any more). If hands were inflated, you'd recieve a calling hand 11% of the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't play poker anymore, how would you know about the so called "inflated hands?"

Regarding the rake, it is capped at a certain $ amount and if you looked at the break points and when the rake is taken you would understand that they don't need to alter the hands to get max rake.

90% of the time I play live poker at a full table the max rake is taken at the casino. Do they inflate hands too? I guess I should call the casino commission and complain that Taj, Trop, and Borgata all cheat.

John_Kerry · Sep 16, 2004

I dont know why anyone would cheat at yahoo either,but it happens and it happens a lot. It must just be an ego thing.

As far as online poker, I wasn't saying that every table you play at will have cheaters, but a small percentage of time you will be cheated. Would you play in person at a table where 4 of the guys were trading info on their cards with each other, but not you ? Of course you wouldn't. Also, that was just one example I was using. A few other posters have pointed out other ways to cheat. There are probably hundreds of ways to cheat. The point that I want to make is that giving the other guy that little advantage makes it very hard to win. I know that everyone wants to believe that they are the greatest poker player in the world. That is just humane nature for us to overrate our own abilities. All we hear is everybody claiming they win, I have even heard quite a few people claim they win EVERY time they play. The fact of the matter is that most players are going to have a hard enough time just breaking even, meaning they have to win enough to be more than playing even but also covering their rake costs. You are also going to have to cover the losses to cheats which will inevitably happen.

John_Kerry · Sep 16, 2004

The site may truly try its best to limit the amount of cheaters it is, but you are kidding yourslef if you think the site can actually do anything about it.

#1 . Its a cost benefit thing. Take Party Poker for instance. It probably has over 1,000,000 hands a day played easily ( 5000 players @ 200 hands each). That is a lot of hands to check. Do you really think this site has hired 500 employees to keep up on this ?

#2.They probably get 10,000 + cheat complaints a day. Most of these are unfounded, just players who lost and assume they must have been cheated.

#3. A group of say 5 colluders could collude together every day for a year and never use the same name twice. How can they really be caught. All they have to do is start the morning by opening 5 new accounts. each player goes to Western Union to fund his account, using a fake name by the way. Send less than $1000 through WU and you can use Mickey Mouse as your name. No ID needed. Now you all 5 sit at the same table and cheat all day long playing enough hands to earn the bonus in each account as well. Now at the end of the day these 5 new accounts are all up a little bit and have a bonus added. Now you dohave 1 real account set up with 1 of the cheaters real name. You bring that account in and sit it at a table with just it and the 5 cheater names , and you put all the money into the real name account. The 5 cheater names will never play again. Next time you make 5 new names. It would take partypoker a year to catch this, and even if they do so what ? You lost your money to the cheats and you arent getting it back. And there will be a new group of cheats waiting for you tommorow.

Bottom line is understand that you have to overcome the rake and cheaters just to break even. The rake will be the least of your worries, cheaters will cost you much more.

There are probably a million more ways to cheat that I cant even think of.

T-Dogg1 · Sep 16, 2004

Kerry I think you are missing the point many of us tried to make. And I take it from your post that you are not a very good poker player. I think we ALL agree there is cheating. The question is it significant enough that you should be worried about your long term ability to earn money at it. The answer is no.

This is not about ego and remembering your wins and forgeting losses. In fact most real poker players can remember losses with great clarity. I think you far over estimate the cheats abilities (which is why they have to cheat in the first place) particularly at certain levels.

You don't have to be a genius. You just have to take some time and prepare which puts you ahead of 99% of the goofs playing. Understanding the odds of a draw has very little to do with thnking you play better than you do.

Either way I am just giving you my PERSONAL experience on two sites Party and Ultimate. There are folks that make money, some significant. I am comfortable in what I do and it pays more than a second job.

I say once again you will lose far more money from controllable things than cheats.

"If you have queens under the gun and your raise is raised and then re-raised. Throw them queens away!" lol

gap1974 · Sep 16, 2004

I will start by saying cheating does happen online. It also happens in casinos, but it is much harder to do because you can't simply change your "ID" and you can't easily share your hands.

I have been playing several years and do notice some strange things online, but I don't think that I've encountered a large amount of cheating. The poker sites have a strong incentive to catch and discourage cheaters, as customers can be scared away by teams. They do not have humans that need to go through hand histories, that's what computing power is for. I feel confident that with the poker site's software and with my own observations of what's going on at the table, I can beat the online games.

John_Kerry suggested the only type of cheating that I really worry about, which is players sharing cards, thus having an advantage. However, even if you are at a table where this happens, there are enough fish in the water to make it worthwhile

jray · Sep 16, 2004

What I don't understand is why the poker-rooms which require a download, such as partypoker, are so popular. I prefer all-flash poker happening in my browser at less-popular rooms like the gold casino. Contact me jray AT free-market.net and I can show you one (if that's ok here). Thanks.
JMR

John_Kerry · Sep 16, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by T-Dogg Revisited:
Kerry I think you are missing the point many of us tried to make. And I take it from your post that you are not a very good poker player. I think we ALL agree there is cheating. The question is it significant enough that you should be worried about your long term ability to earn money at it. The answer is no.

This is not about ego and remembering your wins and forgeting losses. In fact most real poker players can remember losses with great clarity. I think you far over estimate the cheats abilities (which is why they have to cheat in the first place) particularly at certain levels.

You don't have to be a genius. You just have to take some time and prepare which puts you ahead of 99% of the goofs playing. Understanding the odds of a draw has very little to do with thnking you play better than you do.

Either way I am just giving you my PERSONAL experience on two sites Party and Ultimate. There are folks that make money, some significant. I am comfortable in what I do and it pays more than a second job.

I say once again you will lose far more money from controllable things than cheats.

"If you have queens under the gun and your raise is raised and then re-raised. Throw them queens away!" lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TDOGG,

Anytime you would like I will invite you over to my house for a nice friendly game of texas holdem. You come by and I will be there with 4 of my friends. The 6 of us will play a nice game of cards. Only thing is that me and my 4 buddies get to share info on our hands with each other - you will however only know the 2 cards you are dealt. Doing it this way, you wont have to worry about paying a rake to an online site. Anytime you want to do this let me know.

John_Kerry · Sep 16, 2004

TDOGG,

It isn't about how good a player I am, I dont play much at all. When I do play though, I sure do fold a lot more than most players. I am sure there are players who are good enough to overcome the rake and the occasional cheat. I am also sure that MOST players are not good enough to overcome these 2 things. However, it seems that EVERY player thinks he is good enough to. So it is about ego. I would estimate that maybe 5% of players are actually winning consistently, however 95% claim to be. We do have to realize that yes everyone is going to come and say that he is cleaning up, but I am trying to keep it in reality here. The fact is that you are already up against the rake so you have to be above average just to break even. Now you throw in cheaters and even if it only happens to you 10% of the time, its going to be very hard to overcome.

Also, I wouldnt assume that just because some guys are cheating that means they cant play poker. That is like saying card counters must not have a clue how to play BJ. The cheaters just realize they are going to make a lot more money by sharing cards. I realize it doesnt happen at every table, but it happens more than you think. If you are holding jack, jack you are going to stay in most of the time but your odds are greatly increased when you know 10 extra cards and there are no jacks. Also, if you know those 10 extra cards and there are 2 jacks you will drop. You know you arent getting a third jack, so likely you drop without putting any money in. Players lose a lot of money by starting of with king, king and throwing money in the pot hoping for a third king. The cheaters will know that third king isnt coming from the start.

T-Dogg1 · Sep 16, 2004

John, I don't really want to get into a long argument with you but if you don't play much "HOW DO YOU KNOW?" Its like I said before most who advance these arguments don't play much or at all.

If I came over and didnt trust the game at any time. I wouldnt play. Doesnt matter if it really is or not. I have the option.

Rake is not juice. I don't try to "overcome" it. Its figured into my expected hourly rate. Besides tourney players are not even dealing with rake. Your argument is a lot like, "you can't overcome juice, why bother?"

You keep telling me how hard it is. I keep telling you ITS NOT. There are so many bad players online that a solid player who is patient enough will walk into a profit.

Again most lose from 1)Being a bad player, 2)Losing tons on tilt & 3)Poor money money management (playing in games you can't afford or shouldn't). Not Cheats.

Blackjack counters are not cheats. They understand odds and when a deck is more favorable.

Playing in a home game does not prepare you for real competition. And like I said before if you are concerned about cheats and rakes vs your ability to turn a profit. You are not a good poker player and I am not trying to insult or slam you. I used to lose but decided to do something about it.

TheGeneral+ · Sep 16, 2004

Collusion or not, there is money to be made in the internet poker world.

John_Kerry · Sep 16, 2004

Well I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Its just a question of how many cheats there are online. Everyone thinks they are a good player. You say there are so many bad players that a solid player will win. The funny thing is that everyone thinks he is the solid player. Its like in betting, everyone is the sharp and the other guy is the square. You might win sometimes when the game is honest, but if you think you are going to win when your opponent has knowledge of 10 extra cards, you are kidding yourself.

The only thing is that I am willing to admit that I am not going to beat a group that has an overwhelming advantage over me from the start. Maybe it doesnt happen that often, but I know it does happen and I am not going to play a game with odds slanted against me that much even if it is only 10% of the tables.

Again, I think we will just agree to disagree because it seems like every discusiion on a gambling board turns into a big contest of who can claim they win the most. Everyone online is convinced that he is so much better than everyone else that he can overcome rake and cheaters. In reality, very very very few are.

To me rake is juice and I heard somewhere that PartyPoker alone made millions of net income last year. So that means they raked even more because they had to cover costs as well.

We know that Party Poker is making millions.
We know the cheaters are making a killing
We know the bonus players are winning.
Every person you talk to online is making a living at it.
Geez who is losing ?

T-Dogg1 · Sep 16, 2004

Last Response

Rake is NOT juice. Poker is not a 50/50 proposition where a bookmaker takes a share of the profit and you are chasing about 52.5 for a break even point. Rake is not infinite and is the price of a managed game. The fact that you don't address in the most basic elements of my point convinces me that you don't know a lot about poker. You would be more concerned about an ante in relation to the stakes you play.

"You might win sometimes when the game is honest, but if you think you are going to win when your opponent has knowledge of 10 extra cards, you are kidding yourself."

What kind of argument is that? The only one making assumptions is you, based off opinions that DON'T come from experience. 10 extra cards??? What about when I play stud? What about at full tables? What about tourneys? What about head up?

I never said everyone is winning. Honestly I don't care if everyone thinks they are good (another assumption you are wrong about). Experience clearly shows they are not. People aren't losing their money because of collusion. They're losing because their chasing a freaking flush draw.

I am trying to get you to understand that you are NOT facing some huge uphill battle. You are not throwing darts at a board. But you believe what you want I am tired of beatng my head against a brick wall of closed mindedness. I still hope you actually spend some time and actually investigate what you are arguing against. Especially when industry experts and professionals don't agree with you.

John_Kerry · Sep 17, 2004

Dude, every poker player who sends money and gambles thinks he is good. If he really didnt think he was good he wouldnt be gambling.

Trust me, you are not the only person who thinks you are the god of poker.

every post you have made you have made the comment that I dont know how to play poker, yet you have no clue how I play poker so you are the one making assumptions.

Yes rake is a form of juice, betting is not a 50/50 propostion either. If you play a -200 team you have more than a 50 % chance of winning, yet juice is still involved.

I started this thread talking about cheating at party poker holdem, now you want to bring in stud games, etc ? I was talking about holdem, and you keep right on telling yourself that you are the ultimate god of poker greatness all you want, but when the opponent knows 10 extra cards you wont beat him long term.

A real professional would not do this even if he is good. Say you can win at handicapping straight up 55 % of the time, would you start playing at a book that charges -115 both ways ? Hell no, you should still get the best price possible.

Even if someone is good at poker and can overcome the occasional cheater, why would he play in a setting which clearly has cheats ? Just because he CAN overcome the cheats. Either way, he is still losing money to the cheats. I know I know I know - the cheats can share info on cards, have an extra ace up their sleeve, pull back half their bet, etc and you will still beat them.

I wish I played poker 2 % as well as you think you do.

theswami · Sep 17, 2004

John-

If you assume that there is cheating but a good player will win in general but lose money to the cheats once in a while, I contend that it is still worth it.

My view is that even if online poker is cheated to a small degree, many players are better off with the opportunity to play since live games in most of the country are difficult to come by. Online poker allows many people to play more frequently than they would have if live poker was the only option.

You are right that cheats would lower the edge that a winning player would see in a legit game. With that said, live games are cheated too and I've personally seen players soft play each other so a winning player's edge is not completely clean in live games either.

Not that you (or anyone else on the Rx) have ANY idea of the truth but what % of online poker games do you believe are cheated?

BTW, you have the right idea, if you believe that you are being cheated you shouldn't play.

John_Kerry · Sep 17, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by T-Dogg Revisited:
Kerry I think you are missing the point many of us tried to make. And I take it from your post that you are not a very good poker player. I think we ALL agree there is cheating. The question is it significant enough that you should be worried about your long term ability to earn money at it. The answer is no.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi this is Kerry, the one who is "not a very good poker player" ( and I am making assumptions - LMAO)

So it is OK to get cheated so long as you still win a little ? That is a crazy statement.