Better player Michael Jordan or LeBron James

[PatsFan1283]

END THREAD


lol

Lemme slightly rephrase that. If you put them both on average teams in their primes and did a 5000 game simulation, I think LeBron is probably the best of all time at winning the most games in that. Perhaps the 2018 HGH/3pt shooting MJ would be better, but it's gonna be tough to be better than LeBron at making an average team good. He just plugs so many holes.

But that isn't really what BBall is from a legacy standpoint. It's more about making a good team great and performing in high leverage situations and winning championships rather than just having the most value in a neutral situation.

I can't read his mind but I'm pretty sure that is what Daryl Morey is referring to here.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...morey-calls-lebron-james-best-ever-big-margin

He is just strictly talking intrinsic value. Not resume, not circumstance, not high leverage situations.

 

[CHOPTALK]

I have an old neighbor friend who is over 80 years old I say hi to fro
time to time .
Great guy but he is one of those old days everyone was better types .

Accoding to him every hitter hit .350 in the old days and every pitcher had a 1.50 era .

Its just what people do .

 

[JustinCruise]

I have an old neighbor friend who is over 80 years old I say hi to fro
time to time .
Great guy but he is one of those old days everyone was better types .

Accoding to him every hitter hit .350 in the old days and every pitcher had a 1.50 era .

Its just what people do .

Yes

 

[festeringZit]

Another reason why Jordan > LeBron.

(1:20) "I have never even seen one case, ever where LeBron defensively has stepped up and said I'm going to stop that guy" (Michael did it ALL THE TIME)

 

[phdinsports]

Jordan led the league in scoring every year save his rookie or injured season. He is tied for the most first team all defensive team selections in history, despite retiring for two seasons. You have the greatest scorer and the greatest defender in history. How pray tell can anyone argue he's not the greatest!?!? If you're the best scorer and defender you're simply the best ever, period end of discussion!

 

[PatsFan1283]

Another reason why Jordan > LeBron.

(1:20) "I have never even seen one case, ever where LeBron defensively has stepped up and said I'm going to stop that guy" (Michael did it ALL THE TIME)

Who did MJ step up and shutdown in a big playoff game/series? Pippen usually guarded the other teams best perimeter defender. Feel free to name some guys.

Youre doing the Nike Jordan thing again man. Don’t watch 1st take but they prob love them some Nike Jordan.

 

[festeringZit]

Who did MJ step up and shutdown in a big playoff game/series? Pippen usually guarded the other teams best perimeter defender. Feel free to name some guys.

Youre doing the Nike Jordan thing again man. Don’t watch 1st take but they prob love them some Nike Jordan.

Dude, stop bursting my bubble. lol.

 

[CHOPTALK]

Another reason why Jordan > LeBron.

(1:20) "I have never even seen one case, ever where LeBron defensively has stepped up and said I'm going to stop that guy" (Michael did it ALL THE TIME)

You forget the block in game 6 of the finals already?

One of the most famous defensive plays in NBA history

 

[Willie99]

Tatum better than both of them

"And it's not even close"

 

[festeringZit]

You forget the block in game 6 of the finals already?

One of the most famous defensive plays in NBA history

That was impressive, I admit.

 

[PatsFan1283]

The Bulls basically won 55 games the year after MJ retired because they were still an exceptional defensive team without him. They were just a lot worse offensively obviously.

In the ‘91 finals Magic was killing MJ so bad that pippen had to guard him and it changed the trajectory of the series. But for the most part Jordan didn’t really have to guard too many elite guys in his time. Most of the best swingmen of the modern era came after he was done playing. Was the first of his breed really.

 

[phdinsports]

The Bulls basically won 55 games the year after MJ retired because they were still an exceptional defensive team without him. They were just a lot worse offensively obviously.

In the ‘91 finals Magic was killing MJ so bad that pippen had to guard him and it changed the trajectory of the series. But for the most part Jordan didn’t really have to guard too many elite guys in his time. Most of the best swingmen of the modern era came after he was done playing. Was the first of his breed really.

When was Magic killing MJ? Magic averaged 22.96 points per game in the playoffs prior to facing the Bulls. He averaged 18.6 points in the finals. Game 1 he only attempted 5 field goals for 19 points. Game 2 a measly 14 points. Seems like Jordan did a pretty good job guarding the best point guard in history.

 

[Willie99]

Looks like the people have spoken in this poll. Having said that, I expect the results to be a whole lot closer if this poll was taken today

 

[festeringZit]

Tatum better than both of them

"And it's not even close"

I hope you end up being right.

 

[HacheMan]

The ONLY player i have ever seen MJ and even Pippen struggle to guard was Penny Hardaway in the playoffs...

 

[PatsFan1283]

When was Magic killing MJ? Magic averaged 22.96 points per game in the playoffs prior to facing the Bulls. He averaged 18.6 points in the finals. Game 1 he only attempted 5 field goals for 19 points. Game 2 a measly 14 points. Seems like Jordan did a pretty good job guarding the best point guard in history.

They lost game 1 with him on Magic and Magic went 19/11 on excellent efficiency in a low scoring game, game 2 he gets in foul trouble very early and Pippen takes over the assignment, completely shuts Magic down en route to the Bulls winning the series and then they won the next 3 games.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/06/sports/basketball-pippen-performs-magic-on-defense.html

A nice luxury to have arguably the best perimeter defender to toss onto Magic Johnson when Jordan gets into foul trouble and you are facing an 0-2 hole.

If the Bulls were an elite defensive team without Jordan, imagine how could they would be with him? Wait, I thought he had average teammates?

 

[Avocado33]

I always say Jordan is "greater," but LeBron is "better."

It's hard to take away from the pedigree of six-for-six Jordan had, and his killer instinct. He was a cold-blooded killer.

But if I had to build a team around one player, it would be LeBron. LeBron is arguably a pass-first player, who is pretty much as good at scoring as Jordan was. Sure, Jordan averaged more points over his career, but LeBron also took fewer shots than Jordan and was more efficient from the field -- both from two and three. LeBron is averaging over double the assists Jordan was at this stage in their respective careers. Think about that.

The only aspect of LeBron's game that I've ever dogged him for is his free-throw shooting. I commend MJ for his efficiency at the line, and will always feel that this was LeBron's biggest Achilles heal. Low 70's at the FT line is hard to defend for a perimeter player who is arguably the GOAT.
Both were/are fantastic players obviously. It was amazing what Jordan did, and it's truly awesome to watch LeBron continues to do this deep into his career.

 

[PatsFan1283]

I always say Jordan is "greater," but LeBron is "better."

It's hard to take away from the pedigree of six-for-six Jordan had, and his killer instinct. He was a cold-blooded killer.

But if I had to build a team around one player, it would be LeBron. LeBron is arguably a pass-first player, who is pretty much as good at scoring as Jordan was. Sure, Jordan averaged more points over his career, but LeBron also took fewer shots than Jordan and was more efficient from the field -- both from two and three. LeBron is averaging over double the assists Jordan was at this stage in their respective careers. Think about that.

The only aspect of LeBron's game that I've ever dogged him for is his free-throw shooting. I commend MJ for his efficiency at the line, and will always feel that this was LeBron's biggest Achilles heal. Low 70's at the FT line is hard to defend for a perimeter player who is arguably the GOAT.
Both were/are fantastic players obviously. It was amazing what Jordan did, and it's truly awesome to watch LeBron continues to do this deep into his career.

I think MJ is better because he could fit into more very good teams and turn them into championships. LeBron is just the best all-around, so in a 30 team league you take him and 8 bums and he can make the team decent because he can get them good looks with his elite passing, you can play him at the 4 which gives you an extra "smaller" defender while maintaining rebounding/size which is basically a cheat code (less and less as more guys do that now, was more lethal w/ Heat), he never gets hurt and just plays the whole game (when it is significantly harder to do now with all the movement and having to defend out to 25 feet)

But it's hard to say how someone who can't shoot at an elite level and needs to dominate the ball so much would fit into a more egalitarian offensive system. That's nitpicking but sortof where you have to go when assessing the truly elite players.

My point of the last few pages is just that a lot of Jordan's career has now become more mythical than reality, which is unfortunate as it distorts the history of the game. As well as denigrates guys who didn't play in the same era as him because he needs to be lionized so much. Oh well, buy NKE.

 

[Avocado33]

I'm a little confused about the "can't shoot at an elite level" part. Who are you referring to there? MJ had better touch in the midrange than LeBron has/had , but obviously he was pretty bad behind the three-point line. I tend to give players of that era more a of a break though when it comes to three-point shooting efficiency though

 

[Avocado33]

I think MJ is better because he could fit into more very good teams and turn them into championships. LeBron is just the best all-around, so in a 30 team league you take him and 8 bums and he can make the team decent because he can get them good looks with his elite passing, you can play him at the 4 which gives you an extra "smaller" defender while maintaining rebounding/size which is basically a cheat code (less and less as more guys do that now, was more lethal w/ Heat), he never gets hurt and just plays the whole game (when it is significantly harder to do now with all the movement and having to defend out to 25 feet)

But it's hard to say how someone who can't shoot at an elite level and needs to dominate the ball so much would fit into a more egalitarian offensive system. That's nitpicking but sortof where you have to go when assessing the truly elite players.

My point of the last few pages is just that a lot of Jordan's career has now become more mythical than reality, which is unfortunate as it distorts the history of the game. As well as denigrates guys who didn't play in the same era as him because he needs to be lionized so much. Oh well, buy NKE.

Bingo, that's the aspect of any MJ/Lebron argument that frustrates me the most. And it is very unfortunate.