Betfair Dispute

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Hi Voodoo:

I understand that you are pissed. But would you mind giving me a chance to look into this and respond, please?

I received an email from SS about your troubles about 5 minutes ago. I will look into it and post a response by tomorrow night if not sooner.

Since betfair lets you have more than 1 account, please PM me the username you used to place the bet.

Thanks,

rob

Hey Rob. Grab my email from a mod. For some reason my PM here isn't activated presently.

SS.. Having bets predominately at North American style books I genuinely figured a half time bet with no line is just the same as betting an NBA halftime line at a book like Betjam, Pinny etc. Why would I look for a rule I didn't know existed. Like I said i'll chalk it up to not understanding that exchanges operation differently. That said I still don't agree with what to me is a stupid rule.
 

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Why have my posts been put on "Review"?. And my PM's disabled? I wrote my account of what happened.
 

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Hi Voodoo:
I still don’t have your Betfair username so I can’t look into the specific bet but here are my comments so far (from reading above…):
  • You bet on Half Time Odds.
  • Standard Rules Outside of North America (Betfair is a UK-based betting exchange): If it's a tie at half-time, then you get back 'half the face value of your ticket'....
  • You should always understand the rules you are betting into, especially when betting into a different country.
  • Now with Betfair, you don’t lose half at all. You get back half your return... if you backed at >2 (+100 TO +10,000), you're in front... if you backed something <2 (-100 TO -10,000), then you are down (See Cupisz example above)
  • If a Brit bet into TheGreek, he has to cop Vegas rules...he would get his money back. If a Canadian bets into the UK, they have to deal with UK rules.... just like there are four different sets of rules on tennis... ALWAYS be familiar with the rules you are betting into, no ifs, ands or buts
  • Conversely to #4 above, laying at short prices (<2) becomes a winner in a tie/dead-heat, and laying high prices (>2) loses
  • The rules are clearly displayed beside the market, there's nothing hidden here – see below.
  • Cusipz is right on the formula and the examples given by Betfair in the rules section are also below.
  • The “house” does not take the “extra” money. (Betfair is an exchange so there is no house – people are betting against one another and we take a commission off of winning bets-markets actually).
  • Voodoo, I understand that this is an annoying situation BUT HAD YOU COME OUT AHEAD AS Cupisz demonstrates above, would you have POSTED that you came OUT AHEAD?
MARKET INFORMATION

For further information please see
Rules & Regs.

Which team will be leading at the HALF time interval of this game? Dead Heat rules apply. At the start of play all unmatched bets will be cancelled and the market turned in-play. Please note that this market will not be actively managed therefore, it is the responsibility of all users to manage their in-play positions.

Rules & Regs. LINK
8. DEAD HEATS
o Unless stated otherwise in the Specific Sports Rules and/or the Market Information the Dead Heat Rule applies to bets on a market where there are more winners than expected (as set out in the Market Information).
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
o For each matched bet on a relevant winning selection, the stake money is first reduced in proportion by multiplying it by the sum of the number of winners expected (as set out in the Market Information) divided by the number of actual winners (i.e. stake multiplied by (number of winners expected/number of actual winners)). The winnings are then paid to the successful backers on this 'reduced stake' (reduced stake multiplied by traded price) and the remaining stake money is paid to the appropriate layers.

<o:p> </o:p>
o For example, assume there is a dead heat for first place between three horses. 'Client A' has backed one of the winners for a stake of 300 at the traded price of 4.0 and 'Client B' has taken the other side of this bet. When the event is settled, the stake (300) is multiplied by 1/3 (i.e. the number of expected winners (1) divided by the number of actual winners (3)) to calculate the reduced stake (100) and the remainder given to the layer (200). The backer then receives the traded price matched (4.0) multiplied by the reduced stake (4 x 100 = 400). In this example, Client A's net winnings are 100 (400 payout minus the original 300 stake), and Client B's net losses are 100. Alternatively, this can be viewed as the full amount paid to the traded price divided by the number of dead-heaters. In the above example this would be 300 at the traded price of 4.0 (1200) divided by 3; making 400 payout and 100 net winnings.
<o:p> </o:p>
o By way of another example, assume there is an outright winner in a golf tournament but 7 players tie for 2nd place. In the "top 5 finish" market, after settling on the outright winner in the top 5 market there would be 4 other designated winners places available. 'Client A' has backed one of the winners for 300 at the traded price of 4.0 and 'Client B' has taken the other side of this bet. When the event is settled, the stake (300) is multiplied by 4/7 (i.e. the number of expected winners (4) divided by the number of actual winners (7)) to calculate the reduced stake (171.43) and the remainder given to the layer (128.57). The backer then receives the traded price matched (4.0) multiplied by the reduced stake (4 x 171.43 = 685.72). In this example, Client A's net winnings are 385.72 (685.72 payout minus the original 300 stake), and Client B's net losses are 385.72.
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
 

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Hi Voodoo:
I still don’t have your Betfair username so I can’t look into the specific bet but here are my comments so far (from reading above…):
  • You bet on Half Time Odds.
  • Standard Rules Outside of North America (Betfair is a UK-based betting exchange): If it's a tie at half-time, then you get back 'half the face value of your ticket'....
  • You should always understand the rules you are betting into, especially when betting into a different country.
  • Now with Betfair, you don’t lose half at all. You get back half your return... if you backed at >2 (+100 TO +10,000), you're in front... if you backed something <2 (-100 TO -10,000), then you are down (See Cupisz example above)
  • If a Brit bet into TheGreek, he has to cop Vegas rules...he would get his money back. If a Canadian bets into the UK, they have to deal with UK rules.... just like there are four different sets of rules on tennis... ALWAYS be familiar with the rules you are betting into, no ifs, ands or buts
  • Conversely to #4 above, laying at short prices (<2) becomes a winner in a tie/dead-heat, and laying high prices (>2) loses
  • The rules are clearly displayed beside the market, there's nothing hidden here – see below.
  • Cusipz is right on the formula and the examples given by Betfair in the rules section are also below.
  • The “house” does not take the “extra” money. (Betfair is an exchange so there is no house – people are betting against one another and we take a commission off of winning bets-markets actually).
  • Voodoo, I understand that this is an annoying situation BUT HAD YOU COME OUT AHEAD AS Cupisz demonstrates above, would you have POSTED that you came OUT AHEAD?
MARKET INFORMATION

For further information please see
Rules & Regs.

Which team will be leading at the HALF time interval of this game? Dead Heat rules apply. At the start of play all unmatched bets will be cancelled and the market turned in-play. Please note that this market will not be actively managed therefore, it is the responsibility of all users to manage their in-play positions.

Rules & Regs. LINK
8. DEAD HEATS
o Unless stated otherwise in the Specific Sports Rules and/or the Market Information the Dead Heat Rule applies to bets on a market where there are more winners than expected (as set out in the Market Information).
<o:p></o:p>
o For each matched bet on a relevant winning selection, the stake money is first reduced in proportion by multiplying it by the sum of the number of winners expected (as set out in the Market Information) divided by the number of actual winners (i.e. stake multiplied by (number of winners expected/number of actual winners)). The winnings are then paid to the successful backers on this 'reduced stake' (reduced stake multiplied by traded price) and the remaining stake money is paid to the appropriate layers.

<o:p></o:p>
o For example, assume there is a dead heat for first place between three horses. 'Client A' has backed one of the winners for a stake of 300 at the traded price of 4.0 and 'Client B' has taken the other side of this bet. When the event is settled, the stake (300) is multiplied by 1/3 (i.e. the number of expected winners (1) divided by the number of actual winners (3)) to calculate the reduced stake (100) and the remainder given to the layer (200). The backer then receives the traded price matched (4.0) multiplied by the reduced stake (4 x 100 = 400). In this example, Client A's net winnings are 100 (400 payout minus the original 300 stake), and Client B's net losses are 100. Alternatively, this can be viewed as the full amount paid to the traded price divided by the number of dead-heaters. In the above example this would be 300 at the traded price of 4.0 (1200) divided by 3; making 400 payout and 100 net winnings.
<o:p></o:p>
o By way of another example, assume there is an outright winner in a golf tournament but 7 players tie for 2nd place. In the "top 5 finish" market, after settling on the outright winner in the top 5 market there would be 4 other designated winners places available. 'Client A' has backed one of the winners for 300 at the traded price of 4.0 and 'Client B' has taken the other side of this bet. When the event is settled, the stake (300) is multiplied by 4/7 (i.e. the number of expected winners (4) divided by the number of actual winners (7)) to calculate the reduced stake (171.43) and the remainder given to the layer (128.57). The backer then receives the traded price matched (4.0) multiplied by the reduced stake (4 x 171.43 = 685.72). In this example, Client A's net winnings are 385.72 (685.72 payout minus the original 300 stake), and Client B's net losses are 385.72.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

1. I was put on post review after putting this thread up and had my PM previledges taken away so contacting you via PM was impossible. I notice that within the last hour they have given me my PM's back. Also my last post was deleted. (The post in which I stated I had no pm's and was on review)
2. If Houston had won the half obviously I would have won my bet just as I would have won it at any other book so why would I post about it? Seems a mute point.

Like I said in my previous posts, I haven't played at exchanges for very long (a couple months max) As a North American bettor I figured certain rules were universal when betting mainstream sports like the NBA,NFL,MLB etc. So given that I wouldn't go looking for a rule I had no idea existed and I am sure that if you asked 100 posters here that are from NA that 80% would tell you the same thing (they would bet a halftime line not knowing that rule existed).

Rob, Now that my PMs are working i'll send you my info. Thanks for your reply.
 

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re-read please

1. "If Houston had won the half obviously I would have won my bet just as I would have won it at any other book so why would I post about it? Seems a mute point."

Hi Voodoo:

That's not what we are saying above...please re-read.

Horse 1 is 1:5 (say 500 bet)
Horse 2 is 4:1 (say 100 bet)

It ends in a dead heat - how do you split the cash?

Total pool is 600. Horse 1 bettors are entitled to half, 300. And horse 2 bettors are entitled to half - also 300.

Horse 1 bettors lose money (500 in and 300 back)
Horse 2 bettors win money (100 in and 300 back)

Now, I agree they should not use this style for basketball 1st half betting. It should be clearly push = no action...but that's their rule.


I am Canadian and started betting on UK books at 1 point as well so I DO understand what you are saying about being new and not understanding everything. Point I'm making here is that I'm not sure if I can do anything for you in this situation. Betfair has millions of customers (including USA now with TVG). We can't refund money to everyone who didn't read the rules...

I could give you a discounted commission rate if you were to make a large deposit but that is about it on this one...

Best regards,

Rob
 

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Betfair is in the right here, since they were simply following their own rules.

However, I think that they should eliminate the dead-heat rule for the typical North American sports (NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB) so that they are in sync with the North American-facing books in how they handle these sports.

Also, will note that it was rather weak on the part of The Rx to put the poster on post review for starting this thread.
 

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For the record

Also, will note that it was rather weak on the part of The Rx to put the poster on post review for starting this thread. <!-- / message -->

Voodooo7 is not on Post Review and only was for a brief period until I could get in touch with BetFair so that they could respond. I also sent him a long email explaining why he was on PR for that period. Obviously he can post or you wouldn't see any new posts.

He has been 100% free to post all day.


wilheim
 

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Betfair refund

Hi All:


Just wanted to let everyone know that I refunded the balance so the bet was effectively a push. But, this is the 1st and last time, I will be able to "reward" anyone for not reading the rules.

Just to be clear (alot of this was mentioned above):

1. A couple of betting rules (very, very, very few) are different in North America versus The rest of The World
2. Betfair's rule on something like this is actually pretty fair compared to the UK bookies'. One side wins on the push and one side loses.

Thanks and good luck!!

Best regards,

Rob
 

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UPDATE:

I did receive an email from Wil which explained why I had temporarily been put on review. Obviously my frustration came across the wrong way although in my defence the original post I put up was made mere minutes after getting off the phone with them. Regardless I appreciate the email explaining why.

Secondly I logged on just now to find a PM from Rob at Betfair and although not expected at all from me, he/they credited my account with the amount mentioned previously. This is obviously a good faith gesture on their part as although I am still confused be the rule in general, enough respected players (Halifax,Santo,Cusipz etc) have chimed in to try and explain that rule that I have accepted the fact that it's how it is.

After my last post in this thread I did email Betfair with the suggestion that for NBA,NFL and NCAA that they consider altering this rule. Not sure if they can or will but at least I voiced my opinion/concern.

Thanks Rob/Betfair for the good faith gesture!
 

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rule changes

Hi Voodoo:

Thanks for the suggestion and I did think of changing the rule but Canada does not have the same rules as Spain or Greece who also bet on the NBA halftime moneyline bets.

It would be very difficult to have one rule for Half time moneylines for Canadians and one for the Rest of the world. It's the same reason why theGreek, Ladbrokes or Pinnacle only has 1 set of rules

Regards,

Rob
 

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One way to avoid it would be to do the same as you do with hockey totals, always use a 0.5pt spread even when that differs from the vegas line, but not sure if that would be preferable or not.
 

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Hi Voodoo:

Thanks for the suggestion and I did think of changing the rule but Canada does not have the same rules as Spain or Greece who also bet on the NBA halftime moneyline bets.


That is the key here - you would be surprised exactly how popular the NBA is among the Spanish and the Greeks
 

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Hi Santo:

Always respect your opinion and I am actually looking into that but there is (always) alot more to consider even if we are "only" changing a HT Basketball Moneyline market.

Thanks,

Rob
 

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For ties in One day Cricket games betfair treats them as a push and refunds everyone which is a bit strange because must other places it is the dead heat rule.

So I find it strange half time basketball should be the dead heat rule. It would make sense to do it the Nth American way and call it a push.



A question for the betfair rep here. How many Canadians have paid the betfair premium charge so far?
 

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Good discussion

Stuckinvegas...I could NOT have said it better myself!!!

As a Canadian, the rule on those HT ML odds really surprised me at first but I am starting to understand it now.

And let's not blow this completely out of proportion, it's not like this happens in very many of our US Sports markets, combined with the fact that Voodoo (a new bettor) bet it and the fact that the number actually "hit" the push AND that Voodoo was on the wrong side of the bet!!!

I've been betting with BF for 3 years now and I never even noticed that rule b4. Mind you I dont bet that HT market ever. Anyway, it has stimulated some discussion which is what this forum is all about so that's a good thing imo.

kiwi...I am going to look into the cricket. Really good point!!

...How many have paid the premium charge so far? Not many and I dont have that total for you...what I can tell u about Canada is this:

Last week: 2717 sportsbook players. 22 paid the PC.

For what it's worth, I know some of these guys...they are very heavy traders and they don't mind paying (and please take that in context-obviously they would rather NOT pay but they understand that we are a business and not a charity)

But please don't take it from me, take a look at www.thebettingadvantage.com. John is a heavy trader and lives in PEI, Canada. He can give you an honest opinion of what he thinks about paying it...he most likely will tell you the same thing.

Thanks,

Rob
 

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The cricket situation is linked to Betfair offering a "Will there be a tie market", which people use to hedge that outcome. If the match odds market paid a dead heat, calculating said hedge would be harder (but traders would be much happier).

Of course, Betfair earn more commission when spread over two markets.
 

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The cricket situation is linked to Betfair offering a "Will there be a tie market", which people use to hedge that outcome. If the match odds market paid a dead heat, calculating said hedge would be harder (but traders would be much happier).

Of course, Betfair earn more commission when spread over two markets.


Can't agree with your math. Betfair lose out big time on commission in the rare event of a tie in a one day cricket match. Millions is bet on the match market which they refund and get zero commission but only relatively small amounts gets traded on the tie market.
 

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