"Best book" Pinnacle: Are you beating them or are they beating you?

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im just barely ahead of them after being down to them probably 2 years or more. i have to agree with the no scalping or middling there. since going to strictly straight wagering there im winning...playing one book against another id lose at pinnacle seems like every time.

the one i cant win at is betcris. just never have been able to get on a roll there at all. maybe one day ill go dell dude on em /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
 

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Peep, ironically I made quite a bit when I was playing that ALT RL theory I was doing late last baseball season. But I wasn't playing those for a lot.

In football I have done OK with their MLs on the dogs. But spreadwise I haven't figured it out. I think I am down on that side.

I stopped betting NBA awhile ago, but was up on them there when I stopped. But again mostly ML dogs.
 

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i have a question for you and the guys who have responded by saying they cant seem to win at pinnacle...
first of all i know you guys have multiple outs.
secondly, i now your looking to get the best lines or "value". now i know pinnacle keeps pretty much in line with the other big books. and when they have a line that was different than your other books your only going to play it at pinnacle if its to your advantage.
by doing this it seems only logical, to say you shouldnt win any more or lose anymore, assuming your betting amounts are the same ( at least a significant amount) than the other books you play at. now you need to ask yourself which do you tend to play more at pinnacle dogs or chalks?
do you play the steam moves at pinnacle? do you bet more halftime lines at pinnacle? ect.
what im trying to say is that if your using multiple outs, and cant beat one particular book (pinnacle). its because your betting at pinnacle different than the other outs in some way (ie. dogs, chalks something) ALL gamblers develope certain betting patterns, its human nature, if you bet monday night football with olympic and have won the previous three weeks in a row guess whos lines your going to look at first. but if you look at the big picture, as long as the bottom line is a plus, it doesnt matter which book you cant beat as long as your winning at another spot.
 
Its not that at all. There lines are sharper, and when they are not with the consensus they usually win. They gamble a little I am sure...
 

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For me I do everything the same everyday. I check my multiple outs watch the lines move and lock in on the line where I get the best line or price. It has nothing to do with a different betting style at different books. It just seems you run into a little bad luck at a certain book and can't beat them.
 

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well if that is the case (ie everone -8, and pinnacle -8 1/2 or leaning towards the fav) you and everybody else that notices this should be cleaning up by following their lead. pinnacles lines are going to reflect their action period. of course their lines are sharp. so are CRIS and olympics. all three take syndicate action along with square action, so your saying when they are not with the consensous they usually win? if thats the case (which its not) you shouldnt have any prob in beating them.
 

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I have written about this quite a bit at Covers, and it isn't that they are sharper, they are just inline with the more correct contingent.

IMO there are no real "sharp" books. Basically you have 2 or 3 that set a number (those that offer the overnight lines) and they put these up as a barometer. They are seen as the pioneers, but in essence all they are doing is offering numbers up at reduced limits to help set the market for the other books that open their lines the next day.

SO when Boyd's or Olympic or whoever posts the first set of overnight's takes plays, they move the lines accordingly. But as mentioned always as reduced limits, so in essence they might take some money,but surely not enough to kill them.

Then when the lines settle down a little, then the other books post theirs. By then you see very little movement actually. Unless of course a late injury occurs, or a player that is questionable is listed as definate.

It is all a divide and conquer thing. I am not sure how many books there actually are, but say there are 900. 300 will have a team -4, 300 will have 4.5, and 300 will have 5. So amongst them you do have a 1 point differential to work with, but for the most part it isn't worth the worry to most people.

But when lines are posted around the "key" numbers you will see 800 at -3, and 100 at -3.5. And at all those, more than likely you will need to lay odds.

It is all about the burden a book holds. And that is where laying off comes in. Because we all are smart enough to know that when a book follows a move it isn't because of money, it is because everyone else has moved that way. So even if they are lopsided the wrong way, they still move it. They may wait awhile to try and even up, but for themost part I am sure they simply follow the move. Because afterall they can probably call someone that has an uneven amount the opposite of them.

It is just like trading stocks. They have so much at this number, and so much at that number. Then they can get together and figure out who needs what and trade accordingly.

Of course some do gamble, but to say hedging a game a point is gambling might be stretch. The way they gamble is when the originator books post up a number and stick to it, no matter what the action is.

This was my argument way back when about playing at small books.Because small books are at the mercy of the bigger books. If a small book handles 1/10th of what a bigger books handles, then there is no way for that book to be in sync with the bigger book. For example, say Book A handles 100,000 a game on average. They have a split of say 50K and 30 K, they move a half point, to even up. But Book B might only handle 10k a game on average, and may have a split of 7500 to 1500 the OTHER way. SO is it right that they move AGAINST themselves? No, but almost necessary to avoid getting hurt. But if they are that lopsided, they can hold a little (as long as it isn't a "key" number move where they might get middled or sided) to even up some. But for the most part they have to do what everyone else is doing, or they will be the out everyone uses with middling in mind.

I know there are guys that book bets that post here, and I am sure they will gaffaw at this theory. But it is simply common sense. When you can join forces to reduce risk, as well as inundate the world with books to further reduce the amounts each book takes, books have a lot less wory of getting buried.

That is why it boggles my mind that they go out of business like they do. It obviuosly starts with the management's inability to handle money, and know how to reduce risk. But ultimately it is probably greed.
 

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if your doing everything the same, remember what i said about patterns (dogs chalks ect) you shouldnt be losing a significant amount at one book. frankly im suprised at why you guys " think you cant beat one particular book" things like sharper lines, when they are not with the consenus they are right ususally stuff like this.....
guys i hate to break it to you but pinnacle isnt doing anything special to beat you.....YOUR BEATING YOURSELVES.. now let me say this, yes you can go on streaks, winning or losing at certain books for long periods of time. but if your convinced you cant beat a certain book, its because of what your doing, not the book.
 

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also caps, EVERYBODY who gambles developes certain betting patterns and tend to bet that particular way.....if they only way you bet is to find the best line. you should be losing at just more than pinnacle
 
What do I know I only stare at lines all day. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I am done with you.
 

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I actually do very well with what I do but thanks for your concern. You must have misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make was, it is possible in my opinon to have a little bad luck at a certain book. For me that book is Canbet. It was nothing to do with the lines for a lot of the time if I can't get a better number going my way I lock the bet in there for the reduced juice. As for the betting style I can say I honestly don't fall in to that catagory that you seem every gambler falls into. I look for value on a line whether it's chalk or a dog. If the opportunity presents itself to middle and scalp I do it. If that is a certain betting style I stand corrected but IMO it's not. As cecil said what do I know I only stare at the computer screen all day. I am done with you.
 
when Pinnacle expresses an "opinion" by making a line a little off the norm, we should take note and listen.

It looks to me like the other books are tnen out of step with reality, not Pinnacle.
 

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sorry this reply took so long, very busy today.
guys i was only trying to offer some help on why you seem to get beat by just one book consistently, obviously you dont agree with any of my possible reasons. and thats ok.
as far as why i say everyone tends to develop a pattern, its just all ive ever done is book and take calls from people just like yourself, and that tells me they do.
and guys dont flatter yourselves, telling me "you look at lines on a computer all day long" doesnt mean anything to somebody that grew up in this business when all a bookmaker used was a couple of phones, ticket pads, and pens to write up .50 cent daily doubles at the track.. (you do remember doing that dont you)
 
Thats great... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Pinnacle is my favorite book.
I love to lose there...
It means I am winning... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
 

Homie Don't Play That
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I agree with dimeplayersonly. Books aren't beating you. You are beating yourselves. I follow the hot cappers here all sports and bet with 4 outs Pinnacle being one. I shop for the best line. Sometimes Pinnacle has the best, other times not. Thanks to the people here I've been able to take money from all four books.
 
Took old PlanetPinnacle this week to the woodshed. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Simple Game. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
 

acw

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I have been reading this thread with huge interest!

So the Loosers are:
Peep
Pancho Sanza
cecil
blue Edwards
Dell Dude
Patrick McIrish
strut888
smoothie
altice
lander

And the Winners are:
Hamberg
entropy
lurkerforages
basesAREloaded
Scoob
capsmaster
sfeiner
wantitall4moi
Simple Game

I have no account at Pinnacle. I hardly ever see them offer an attractive price. They are either in the middle of what other books offer or when they take a position, I agree with that position, BUT I would like to know, if their positions are based on their own opinions, what the Winners have been "telling" them or are they truly doing proper bookmaking?
 

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I agree with ACW. There isn't much value available there anymore. Moneylines come out pretty late. They must just call off any big bets to someone else. They are not asking for buyback like they used to. Nor do they open with good prices on favorites.
 

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they truly doing proper bookmaking?

why this obsession with "proper bookmaking"? from previous posts i understand you to mean a balanced book but the concept is so old i imagine it rarely if ever happens. certainly in my experience i have never seen anything remotely close to it.
 

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